[Closed] Are UK riders moving further away from US/Euro riding trends?

I think that's an interesting point and generally I'd agree.

But I like to think that rather than the UK moving away from EU/US trends, actually the fact is that they aren't keeping up

😉

Are we doing your market research or your homework for you?

Specialized are importing their 29ers for 2011, every manufacturer has 29er. There are more people on 29ers than ever before. We have always had the 'hardcore hardtail' - I fail to see what has changed from last year. Turner, Santa Cruz, Trek, Specialized, Giant, Scott, LaPierre etc will all sell loads of bikes in the UK.

😕

I think one of the main differences is that UK riders ride in all conditions

There are more people on 29ers than ever before.

Although personally I've yet to actually see one out on the trail.

I think the UK market is already split into 2 categories - trail park riding, and destination riding.

A lot of UK riding is dictated by the lack of open access and restriction to trail parks. The trail centres I've seen (not many) seem to be best ridden with a geared bike with suspension.

If you have open long distance trails then you have different requirements. A simple light rigid SS 29er is just the job for that IMO, maybe with gears if you're camping. On-One have a pretty firm grip on this market at the moment.

I hate the term aggressive when applied to riding. To me it sounds like you're shoving folk into ditches as you pass them. Stupid phrase to use.

Just my impression but UK riding seems to be much more about razzing about in woods where you can find them, mainly due to the lack of easily accessible epic type riding for most people. Hence the trend for more do it all tough and fun type bikes, that can handle mud. Makes us produce better riders IMHO, hence our big representation in the non-XC type riding categories?

Surrounded By Zulus - Member
I hate the term aggressive when applied to riding...

+1

It always puts me in mind of those little fat boys who talk like tough Nintendo Ninjas.

I think I read the other day that in the US Specialized sell more 29er hard tails than 26er hard tails. We are know where near that

I think maybe the UK is less polarised. Its less clear cut between freeride and Xc we are on a sliding scale bewteen the 2

I ride the same way now as I did when I was a kid, funny really, my bike back then was a steel 5 speed racer with cowhorns, not that dissimilar to a rigid 29er!

Have had this issue with some of my suppliers not being from the UK, trying to explain why people over here run coil shocks on their trail bikes the 190 and 200mm eye to eye ones!
Finally got them to build me some in the shorter lengths whiich will be available in 2011. 8)

honestly? WGAF?

ride what you want how you want.. and stop worrying about giving it a name (and if it's competitive it already has one 😉 )

You're not wrong that the UK are very strong in mens senior and junior DH at world cup level tho, there are many reasons why we're strong in DH but TBH I CBA going into it. but we're actually pretty rubbish at WC 4X, other than Elbry do we even have any full time competitive freeriders? no idea about trials (but I didn't think our best Trials riders even compete in trials comps)

The Americans and Canadians seem to be more interested in the big jump slope style riding rather than downhill racing, although they seem to be a few more higher up the downhill rankings this year.

There are loads of good French downhillers if you ever go to the alps, they just don't seem to be breaking through to the top at the moment.

Its good to see so many UK riders being so good in the downhill at the moment, but I think your reading more into it than there actually is, its just a temporary thing, it happens in all sports.

And plenty of country's continue to cycle in all weather, don't believe the hype that its only the brits that do so, I saw far more riders out this weekend in Germany, at temps around -10 than would ever be seen in the UK.

I reckon the UK has built up quite a diverse range of riding disciplines and equipment to suit but I think to say we are “different” from the rest of the world is a bit much, the UK is just a slightly different profile, probably to us being a Northern European Island with mostly Damp but not particularly extreme weather…

We’re probably not following all the “Trends” but anything with merit tends to make it’s way onto the UK riding radar and either fizzle out or get adopted & adapted as appropriate by the those who can make use of it within the prevailing UK terrain/weather conditions (29” wheels being and 5” air sprung bikes both good examples)…

As a nation we took to Gravity fed stuff, DH/4X/FR en masse and it’s mostly stuck, hence we are quite well represented in those disciplines internationally, we have pretty much year round DH riding in the UK, you can probably book yourself onto one uplift or another somewhere in these Isles for about 97% of the year and a well developed domestic racing scene from small local stuff up to a very competitive national series means we’re churning out fast DH racers far better than the Yanks.

As for XC again year round riding conditions and a solid racing culture mean it won’t die anytime soon, Endurance events are gaining ground year on year as well, I think that maybe puts us ahead of some other countries…

There are people who do weekend survivalist epics with a bivey for a laugh, others who Blatt down Scotish or Welsh mountains and those who are happy with a couple of hours meandering round a forest, and some who do a bit of everything…

I’d say UK MTBing is a broad and healthy church, we just don’t generally feel the need to keep up with Zee Germans or Yanks…

LOCO - that's good news, it's a shame you can't really get 165mm I2I coil shocks anymore! 😥 as 3.5-4.5" travel coil sprung pinners is all most of us need really! talking of which, any idea where still has stock of short coil springs (ie. 1.5-1.75 stroke)

The UK is a tiny market in comparison to the rest of the riding world.

I think one of the main differences is that UK riders ride in all conditions

There is a lot of 'niche' in the UK, which is good, but not necessarily a trend setter for larger companies from outside the country to be involved in.

The UK's been a bit different to the US and Europe in some way or another since the mid-late 90's when little ragger hardtails got popular. Different attitudes, terrain, weather etc creates a different scene. i don't thing we're moving further away, just that there's more bike choice now so more diversity between markets and that's good for choice.

TBC - the americans I am in contact with thru an international forum dont ride in the wet at all. Theya re amazed we do.

Similarly I have talked with German riders and its a summer only thing for them and they are suprised we ride in winter

Of course its not exclusively so but I do believe that there is a greater tendency to ride in all conditions in the UK than other places

TBC - teh americans I am in contact with thru an international forum dont ride in the wet at all.

Uh huh.... is that representative of the general population of riders or just those on that forum that you are in contact with?

A bit of a generalisation.

See my edit above

Of course its not exclusively so but I do believe that there is a greater tendency to ride in all conditions in the UK than other places

So other nations don't? The Americans ride in all conditions, it's a diverse topography and climatic place.
Europe is similarly massive.

Most Americans I've ridden with don't ride off road in the rain, or after a rainfall. I've ridden in N and S ends of California, and in Virginia / Washington DC area, with a few people and it's always been the same.

It is even in their official IMBA rules -
"Wet and muddy trails are more vulnerable to damage. When the trailbed is soft, consider other riding options."

I think it's primarily because over there, they have no right to ride on most trails, so it is relatively easy for them to get chucked off, whereas over here, we have a legal right of access to a lot of trails (and way more trails) so banning us would be pretty much impossible. This means they are way more careful about projecting an image of responsible riding.

There are also way more areas in the US where it is practical to do this, becuase in most places the weather changes less quickly than here. If you didn't ride for 3 days after rain, like people do in some US areas, you'd never ride.

We also have a climate where you can ride all year round - it is much harder to ride all year in places where the weather gets really cold and snowy in winter.

Joe

you only have to look at the the bikes small bike companies like cotic, on one, dialed bikes etc... are producing to see where uk riding is going; big travel hard tail trail bikes for spending the day thrashing down single track and verging on downhill the other forms of riding are still there and going strong but the uk is steadily swing to this form of riding.

Never seen a 29er in the flesh either
I am intruiged by them

^^ they make total sense for riding dull XC trails in a non inspiring fashion

Remember of course that the populus of this forum represents the UK riding culture as a whole. So saying we all ride throughout the whole year, no matter what the weather is doing and the Yanks/mainland Europeans don't is 100% accurate*.

* or may be complete b*ll*cks.

Makes us produce better riders IMHO, hence our big representation in the non-XC type riding categories?

XC riders are not very good then?

they make total sense for riding dull XC trails in a non inspiring fashion

Should have added that its a very interesting subject but I think theres so many regional and local variations to terrain, accessable riding etc that its a generalisation you just can't make. I do think that some trends that crop up in the States try to come over here but in reality we just do our own thing with them. Slopestyle for example. I've yet to see someone riding a full sus bike down a downhill track littered with huge jumps and stuff, backflipping everything in sight. But you do see 'slopestyle'-style bikes all the time, being ragged around the woods, slogged around the trail centres to make the descents super fast and fun.

I do think unique things happen in the UK scene compared to the rest of the world (long travel hardtails being one of them) but I suspect things that are just as unique happen in other countries.

you only have to look at the the bikes small bike companies like cotic, on one, dialed bikes etc... are producing to see where uk riding is going

We are mostly enthusiasts posting on a forum populated by similar enthusiasts. I would suggest that the manufacturers listed above are the same; they are catering to a minority need in the UK. An important market to us but very much a minority market relative to total bike sales in the UK.

The majority of bike sales in UK will be big-brand lines featuring models much the same as are available in USA, rest of Europe, etc., so, whilst the UK has its own bike-specific niches it doesn't reflect the mainstream IMO.

I've never ever seen an on-one ridden by anyone not at least registered on here..

Terrahawk - you serious?

I think he rides a clown bike GW so he's going to be a bit touchy about it.

😆

Are we doing your market research or your homework for you?

A bit harsh don't you think TooTall? I'm a teacher so I set homework not do it.

Specialized are importing their 29ers for 2011, every manufacturer has 29er. There are more people on 29ers than ever before. We have always had the 'hardcore hardtail' - I fail to see what has changed from last year. Turner, Santa Cruz, Trek, Specialized, Giant, Scott, LaPierre etc will all sell loads of bikes in the UK.

You wouldn't happen to ride a 29er would you? 😉

My local trails are The South Downs which you would have thought would be the ideal place for 29ers. However, i've seen only a handful all year despite riding regularly in all conditions.

I'm also not suggesting that the hardcore hardtail is anything new, just that it's become a very UK 'thing'. What is changing from what I can gather is that the bikes we're buying in the UK are becoming more removed from what they're buying in the US.

We also have a climate where you can ride all year round - it is much harder to ride all year in places where the weather gets really cold and snowy in winter.

if we had a ski/boarding season then I would pack away the bikes for the season in a flash.

the phrase "hardcore hardtail" was originally dreamt up by the bike media around 15yrs ago to categorise little 80-100mm travel Dual/4X/DJ hardtails.. what you lot now call hardcore hardtails are mainlyly just XC mincetanks. ie. too heavy for XC racing, too shit for 4X/DJ

I think he rides a clown bike GW so he's going to be a bit touchy about it.

I think I merely asked GW to elaborate on his statement.

but do you?

do I what?

ride a clown bike?

Yeah, we cut our own path, some of it good, some of it bad.

We ride long forked hardtails- our weather conditions dictate that, but also our trails are too tame for big full sus bikes.

We don't ride 29ers. We've yet to sell one in any of three shops, and it's very rare to see one out on the trails.

We use too many 6" bikes for our trails- this is an American fashion that just doesn't copy over here.

Our idea of XC is more technical than Europe's (as a whole)- having ridden with a few foreign guys regularly over here they say our idea of a typical XC ride is much tougher than theirs.

Our bars are often too wide and our stems too short. While wider bars are good to an extent, and short stems too, we're being dictated to a bit by the media and use the incorrect equipment for what we do. The same goes for these mental head angles we seem to have appearing on XC bikes these days.

The weather conditions thing seems to be true- we've gone out in weather that has astounded some of the Europeans in our club (and they're from places like Germany and Switzerland rather than more Med climates).

We're afraid of the triple chainset on MTBs. Bashrings are far more common over here when your average rider would benefit from a bigger ring.

We have far more steel bikes. We seem less concerned by lightness and more by ruggedness and repairability, which is no bad thing.

We follow trends more. Euros use kit that is years old a lot more happily than us. They aren't so keen to get on the flat pedal bandwagon as us, but are much more roadie influenced.

Singlespeeding is bigger here than Europe. Again, probably because of the conditions we ride in.

We wear more baggy clothing than the Euros and a lot of Americans. More DH influence, probably because of our DH success. But then, France has had serious DH success too and not gone this way.

yep.

Back to your point - what was it?

[url= http://www.uci.ch/templates/BUILTIN-NOFRAMES/Template3/layout.asp?MenuId=MTUxNjU&LangId=1 ]UCI DH rankings[/url]

[url= http://www.uci.ch/templates/BUILTIN-NOFRAMES/Template3/layout.asp?MenuId=MTUxNjU&LangId=1 ]UCI XC rankings[/url]

@Terrahawk - I think this is the point that you were missing. Competitively, UK riders are a lot more successful at DH than XC.

Does this mean that the 'gravity scene' is something unique to the UK, and in some way is producing these riders, or that we are lacking something in the XC/Road area, that does not allow young talented riders to progress?

And does any of this reflect how bike manufacturers try to sell bikes to us?

no, the 'point' I was missing was the one behind the 'they make total sense for riding dull XC trails in a non inspiring fashion' bit further up.

too heavy for XC racing, too shit for 4X/DJ

There's a lot in between XC Racing and 4X and Jumps. Like riding your bike for fun, where reliability and strength are more important than weight. Sure, we all no people that bought a BeFe rather than a Soul to mince around Llandegla on, but don't tar us all with the same brush.

When I rode in the US, (Moab, Colorado & California) I saw even more On-ones than I do here, they all stay off the trails unless it's dry and without exception they made jokes about bringing their fenders when they came to visit the UK.

New Zealand on the other hand.......

That has no relevance to the OP, but someone has to agree with TJ, sometimes

Pretty funny to see people generalise the US. I've seen folks riding all sorts of diffent rigs on all sorts of terrain. From the dry rocky deserts of Utah, to the UK like riding in New England (there's a hint in the name), swamps in florida and to forests of the Northwest & Canada and Alsaka.

They're not all Californians you know! 😉

The UK is a much smaller market with much more limited access (at least compared to the West of the states) and a less diverse climate.
The riding therefore is less diverse suits more of a niche kind of bike setup.

XC mincetanks

And I'd agree with your point, anything much above a 4" fork on most HTs is starting to seem OTT to me again...

We'll all be back on sensibly sized 4" forked HTs soon I reckon...
"UK stylee" of course.

'they make total sense for riding dull XC trails in a non inspiring fashion'

Well, he's right. They aren't as good in technical stuff, they don't steer as well in twisty stuff. The only thing they're good for is smoother trails and climbing since they are, in essence, hybrids.

They're for a sort of trail that doesn't really exist in the UK- those long, smooth, gently winding singletracks from the Western USA.

I think there was also some suggestion that the UK was better at DH than XC, and you had questioned that (as well as the borderline logic of clown bikes)

So, are we in the UK 'behind the curve' and will we finally 'get' 29ers in the next few years? Curious, as if it is so strong in the US, it normally follows that the Uk will adopt at some point.

IME, having spent a lot of time living and working in mainland Europe, the 'Euro' market is very heavily influenced by road racing. As such, the MTB market it is still dominated by lots of lycra and a strong XC flavour, despite the growing strength of the DH/FR scene.

Paul - XC racers go very fast up, along (and down considering their bike set-ups), 4X riders go very fast down, round corners and over jumps and obsticles from what I've witnessed most long travel hardtail riders rarely do any of these things.

GW - other than Elbry do we even have any full time competitive freeriders?

Chris Smith? By far the UK's number one pro freerider.

Makes Elbry look like he's only just progressed from stabalisers...

'they make total sense for riding dull XC trails in a non inspiring fashion'

that's teh crap geometries of most 29ers rather than the wheels themselves imo. big wheels could be good but are limited by layouts of many 29ers but yes i'd agree that they may never be the best bike for the kind of riding we think makes up typical UK trail riding.

on the long fork HT thing, it seems to be settling on 120mm for most uses. whether that's long or not i'm not sure, it depends on your perspective. but the canadians and americans gave us the first hardcore hardtail frames that we made our 'UK style' bikes from anyway. watch the original Kranked film and see where our tech-trail leanings started, a cross between large DJ frames and bikes made for where the north shore riding was going at the time. Coves, Chameleons, DS-1s and the like with 110mm bombers. not a lot different to what we tend ride now really.

there is an argument that big forks on hardtails are a fundamentally bad idea and i understand why a lot of non-uk riders simply don't get them or want them. but they are fun and we don't tend to take riding as seriously here unless it's prioritising techy trail handling - hence our XC failings vs DH success?

I'm cool with my big forked hardtail- the trails I ride often don't warrant full suspension (e.g. the Lake District, the Peak District, Laggan etc.). I'd say I wasn't a total plodder either (I got into the top run of the Mega Avalanche so I can't be that bad, though I am by no means a great DH rider). I consider them a better option than full sussers for a reasonably skilled rider as they are a lot of fun.

"they are, in essence, hybrids"

could i change that to 'they use, in essence, hybrid geometry'?

i've ridden a couple of 29ers (wildly different designs) that changed how i saw big wheels could handle. they are different types of bike to 26ers, but saying 29ers don't handle well ids like saying FS or LT HT's don't handle well if you've only ridden bad examples. 29ers are a way off having settled on good geometry basics for the kind of riding we do in the uk most of the time and have been embraced by riders who love big rides on fast, dry, flowing, smooth trails. some people have got used to riding techy stuff on them but they're mostly not ideal.

my point on this is that when / if 29ers get accepted in the uk for what we're calling uk riding, then you may be able to say they're sorted. in other words we're pretty demanding here and handling is a priority over racy low weight and speed.

that's teh crap geometries of most 29ers rather than the wheels themselves imo

try scrubbing a 29er?

hence our XC failings vs DH success?

Having ridden a 69er and a 29er back to back, I think it's fair to square all issues at the wheels. The turn of speed of the 29er on a straight uphill compared to the 26er highlighted the 26" wheel's inadequacies for this sort of thing nicely, but the slower acceleration of the 29er out of twists and turns and the ponderous handling of both in the turns highlighted the issues of the 29" wheel. Geometry isn't the issue since both had very different geometry.

"GW - other than Elbry do we even have any full time competitive freeriders?"

Gee Atherton? i know he's officially a DHer, but look at his red bull rampage rides.

spokescycles, those are the places in the UK that do warrant FS! 🙂 but i like the way that in the uk, we're happy to make our lives more fun / difficult / simple (delete as applicable!) as we see fit. liek the alps, fun on a uk hardtail, fun on FS, just different. all good.

Compared to some places in the Highlands and deepest darkest Wales, the Lakes and the Peak especially do not warrant a bouncer for your average rider (some trails excepted).

try scrubbing a 29er?

You're right, they do take a bit longer to clean.

🙂

FFS James. 🙄

Spokescyles - just read your little essay at the top of the page (couldn't be bothered earlier) and a lot of it made me realise why I almost never visit bike shops.

Don't understand why the antagonism towards 29ers.

They seem to me to be the best wheel size if you have an all day ride to go somewhere.

If you want to play pogosticks in a [s]play ground[/s] trail centre, then small 26" wheels with full sus is obviously better.

In case you think I'm biased, I've got a full sus bike with small wheels.

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😆

scrubbing? sorry.. i may know what you mean by another name but i'm not sure what that is.

GW, you cant say that it's the wheels alone so decisively. big wheels will never be found on a DJ bike. there is a place along the rad moves-to-road race line that you won't find big wheels, but the place they generally at now is largely down to the compromises made by designers to fit them in to a fully geared, conventional suspension-forked frame. that's the way things are and with the US market driving them they'll probably stay, but they could potentially be quite different.

spokes, ponderous handling in corners as in wheel weight, same as slower acceleration out? that's fair, light wheels makes a massive difference on a 29er, more than on a 26. but there's plenty of slack angled bikes that could handle relatively poorly in tight singletrack too, it's just that we've learned to use wide bars, short stems and roomy front ends to balance it. few have got close to that far on with 29er design yet. it's all pros, cons and balancing them out.

FFS what?

Remember of course that the populus of this forum represents the UK riding culture as a whole

Lol. I would question that.

When i was in the alps this summer, there was people from all nationalities there.
Only the brits went out when it rained!

Don't understand why the antagonism towards 29ers.

isn't it more that people can't be bothered with yet another standard?? if you've got a few bikes its nice to be able to swap bits between them, including tyres, inner tubes, or wheelsets.

I do have similar issues with these XC bikes that seem to have DH bike angles of around 65 degrees, so it's not just a problem inherent to 29ers, but the 26" wheel keeps things manageable with a super slack HA.

"I think one of the main differences is that UK riders ride in all conditions"

Bingo TJ.

We're less hung-up on categories. Our rides blend XC terrain with DH terrain, in the wet or dry. Our bike choices reflect that.

We're less hung-up on categories

That is why there are about 17 new riding niches that have been sold to the public then? 😕

"...hence our XC failings vs DH success?
Nope!
that's down to our excellent (and somewhat unique) DH race scene! "

thats kind of my point. XC race scene - dying a death. DH race scence, bigger social aspect and prioritising technical skills - well supported, popular and growing. the reasons DH racing in the UK is big are the reasons XC is not. hence why teh UK produces good DHers and few top XC riders.

there also may be a doping issue there but that's another debate )

Isn't it more that people can't be bothered with yet another standard?? if you've got a few bikes its nice to be able to swap bits between them, including tyres, inner tubes, or wheelsets

I think there's some truth in that.

HoratioHufnagel - Member
'Don't understand why the antagonism towards 29ers."
isn't it more that people can't be bothered with yet another standard?? if you've got a few bikes its nice to be able to swap bits between them, including tyres, inner tubes, or wheelsets.

Exactly.

29er wheel = 700c rims, so can use fat road tyres, cross tyres, or 29er tyres on my 29er. Swappage between bikes is much easier when the rims are all the same diameter. This is why I am getting rid of my 26" bikes - it's very inconvenient not being able to swap bits around.

So 29er should be the standard. 🙂

As Someone in the trade at a distribution level and aware of developments in Europe and in the states its quite interesting to see what's been happening

Tyre sizes for example, UK is ahead of the curve using 2.3" plus tyres for XC and trail, in continental Europe they're still very much 2.1/2.2" for XC, so, that has a knock on effect with rim widths and clearances,

Night riding is much more common in the UK, singlespeeding is fairly UK centric, 29'ers are growing massively in the US, very little impact in Europe, and, obviously, throughout most of continental europe and the US, winter riding is less common, as they have proper winters there, so they all go skiing instead 😀

Zulu-Eleven - Member
...throughout ... the US, winter riding is less common, as they have proper winters there, so they all go skiing instead

Winter riding is growing fast in the USA if the fatbike forums are anything to go by.

Oops, introduced another category to be scorned...

🙂

Never seen a 29er in the flesh either

Are you taking the mickey? 4-5 local riders round here have them, mayber more. 🙂

So we have average terrain, but ride it more than the rest.
GO UK! whoop

But PP I don't live where you live!

you can get that stable yet flickable feel on big wheels too.. it's different as the agles and balance need to be different, there's a bit more straight line stability and grip at the expense of a bit of flickability but if the wheels are lighter it can be comparable with a 26.

there's sod all reason to try to make a 29er that does what a well-evolved 26er does well already, but there's natural pros and cons of the wheel sizes that mean if you play to the strengths and the frame+fork work those strengths well, then it's not a lot different to the way that hardatils or any other types vary a bit between models.

not wanting to go into a 29-26 debate intentionally, but maybe there's something about UK riding trends and attitudes that are behind us not wanting to accept 29ers, rather than looking to see what can be done with them. we don't fear different fork lengths or rigid vs FS frames so i don't understand the more extreme reaction people have about 29" wheels - i can understand the reaction against bikes that doesn't suit our riding but a racy, 80mm forked, 110mm stem euro xc bike set-up doesn't mean we say 26" wheels are crap because we know there is choice and different ways to do it. currently we have very little choice in 29ers.