[Closed] are trail lights becoming too bright?

Nah 8)

Need brighter and longer burn times

To be quite honest, anyone who gets scared by a bright light is low on my list of sympathies. I've got a bright light but I dim it on the road obviously, and there's really nothing else out at night that should have to worry about it.

Obviously they're not neccesary though- we're at the point now where one bright light can make it [i]almost[/i] like riding in daylight. But that's OK, as long as you're just out for a ride at night rather than a nightride.

not too bright in general, but potentially dangerous on roads

IMO

Don't know a great deal about lights - I bought two p7 torches from dealextreme a few years back for £50 when they were popular on here. They've been great - bags of light, anything brighter would be way overkill IMO. People just like bright and shiny things I guess.

If more lumens could do something about the flattening out effect you get under the lights I can see that being helpful - but AFAIK it wouldn't change?

But that's OK, as long as you're just out for a ride at night rather than a nightride.

Well spoken - But in concerns of traffic and potentially other peoples lives, it demands that those using these extreme lights make good use of a healthy common sense in terms of where and when to use them.

not too bright in general, but potentially dangerous on roads

IMO

Only dangerous if angled horizontal and left in high mode, down to the operator really innit...

I think the key thing now isn't the levels of illumination but more the quality of the light output, an XML might well be very bright, but it's only any use if the reflector and lens make good use of that...

Im happy with a hope 2 and a helmet light if im on my own, in a group I need a small floodlight to avoid being in shadow.

skadkaer - Member

But in concerns of traffic and potentially other peoples lives, it demands that those using these extreme lights make good use of a healthy common sense in terms of where and when to use them.

Just like car headlights then.

'are lights too bright or are they necessary?'

often don't bother to switch mine on at all on group rides.

Why does "neccesary" come into it at all?

Maybe some people buy lights that are much brighter than they need for trail riding, but I know sometimes in the middle of the night during a 24 solo, it can seem very dark and gloomy indeed, especially if it gets misty or foggy.. and thats with an exposure six pack and joystick.

Northwind - Member
Why does "neccesary" come into it at all?

although he did spell it correctly 😛

Goldarn it, so he did.

Yes...far too bright...no need for such brightness but the spread provided by this light is very usable. I never ride with my light on full...just too bright whether on my own or group.

Personal choice though, some folk 'need' their personal sun as they don't think they can manage otherwise...they paid their money so let them decide for themselves...

Too much in my opinion though.

I remember riding on Cannock Chase with a set of Ever-Ready lights back in about 91'. Those weren't the days, trust me.

2000 lumens here & glad of all of them. Nice to ride with them switched off when its a full moon / in snow sometimes though.

I'm wholely with you on this thought, I hate being over-lit as seems customary these days. Everyone's got a second sun blasting away, takes away all the fun of riding in the dark - might as well go out in the day. I remember the days of night riding with a 10w halogen. I still run a 20w halogen and I'm more than happy with it, it keeps the "on the edge, can't quite see enough to relax" which to me is the whole point. Riding at night SHOULD be different from riding in the day. Can't stand it when people join me with their second suns.

Running dim lights has a couple of benefits too, one being that you keep your night vision so looking to the sides you an see things rather than just blackness and if for some reason you're running on the edge of your runtime, a flat battery doesn't leave you whimpering at the lack of light.

coffeeking - Member

might as well go out in the day

I would do, if the day was longer. As it is, I have to go out at night.

Now, don't get me wrong, I've done plenty of night riding with poor lights, and sometimes it's been great. Did most of the red at Glentress with no lights at all a few weeks ago, riding by memory, moon and luck... Fantastic. But there's nothing wrong with wanting to ride at night with good light either.

Bright lights generally have low settings but weak lights don't have higher settings 😉

Its all my fault 8)

I'm of the preference of lesss is more. I like the feeling of 'oh crap i don't know what's going on around me' so low lighting is more my thing.

I can see why others have the whole world illunminated on night ridees..but for me that's spoiling the whole objective.

NO! 😀 i don't have bright lights myself,but i will be saving up for some,at some point.although i agree that there should be an option for lowering the output for the road.

I've got one of the old dealextreme bastid lights from a couple of years ago, bright enough for me in general a second on the bars would be perfect. I'd rather have a long battery life however rather than more and more lumens or whatever. The trouble is they seem to cost too much for me to justify for few months of use the lights get where the extra runtime would be beneficial.
Something a touch brighter than my old bastid witha great battery life and a reasonable price and I'd be happy.

While Im sure we can all give an idea of how bright is bright enough for our own purposes, LED tech will keep developing. What it ought to achieve is greater burntimes at lower temps and currents. Something that also doesnt get much attention yet is marrying the new SLEDs to new optics. There's little value in the chinese factories putting much effort into developing better collimators, focusers, spreaders, lensing etc to create optimal trail shaped light when they can just through a cheaper more powerful LED on the PCB every 6 months.

some interesting points raised, some dull, but mostly interesting.

For all those that have to many lumens. [img] [/img]

I used to think I had more than enough with a single 1000 lumen on my head, but since my mate has bought a Niterider 3000 its changed the way i look at lights. More is definately better

Won't somebody think of the [s]chil[/s] [i]animals?[/i]

Offroad, fill yer boots.
On road, be careful and dip/dim/turn off the mucho lumen floods.

Too bright? No, not really although riding in groups always tends to make your own light look weak.

Solo riding only needs average illumination, can get by with a few hundred lumens IME.

Take your lights out at midday. Turn them on. Does it look brighter?

If it does then yes. If not then no.

Group ride yesterday (well me and three kids) with an Exposure Strada three small Cateyes and one slightly bigger one (nothing too technical of course). Personally, I think it is the beam pattern that really matters. I have been more impressed with the Strada off road than on the road. The Fresnel lens gives a wide beam for nice peripheral vision. The spot shows the way. 400 lumens plus some helmet lighting for the dips and bends is plenty.

It's a log scale anyway, so 1200 lumens beaming directly ahead isn't worth much more than 400. 4000 lumens, and one might as well ride in daylight.

I am the Nightrider. I'm a fuel injected suicide machine. I am the rocker, I am the roller, I am the out-of-controller!

4000 lumens, and one might as well ride in daylight.

Dunno about too bright, but the money people are prepared to spend on lights astounds me.
Check the [url= http://www.evanscycles.com/products/lupine/betty-12-front-light-ec029494 ]Lupine Betty[/url] on Evans.
I mean, you'd have to be a complete dickwad to splash that much money on a light.

An overcast day has a uniform luminance of 1000 lux (lumens/m2). So assuming those 4000 lumens are lighting 4 square metres, one might as well ride in the daylight. Of course the illumination may be spread more widely, but one should also factor in pupils being more dilated and increased retinal sensitivity.

Scotsman +1
[img] ?width=500&height=375&aspect=fitwithin&padcolor=ffffff[/img]
Having had to rely* on either NeverReadies and Wonder lights for several years of winter commutes in the past, I've been so traumatised by the experience that I've yet to find a light bright enough to compensate for those years of terror.

Well when I say rely, reliable isn't a word you'd associate with them apart from in the context of reliably shit.

Diminishing returns, the brighter your lights, the less your eyes adjust, the less you see around you.

I remember those old smart halogens, batteries that weighed over a kilo, having to dim to 2.4w to eek out the last few miles as the light got yellower and yellower.

Long live lightweight, silly bright, reliable LED lights 🙂

As mentioned above, the Chinese light explosion (in more ways than one)has caused this - very cheap (1/2 the price of last year...) and very bright lights are the norm.

Off road - do what you want, it's on road when the lights aren't dipped that they cause problems. I've seen cars skidding to a halt and lorries just stopping trying to work out what's going on.

I sell lights, and I've got a box of different ones to choose from. Recently I've gone from 1200 lumens on the bars back down to a 450lumen Lezyne and I've never wished I had more available.

My Lupine Betty after and over the bars couple of months ago... 😯

[img] [/img]

No. And I don't miss the pi$$y yellow dim puddle of my old halogens and nor do I miss running out of juice or carrying a big led acid battery.

If your lights are too bright you can turn them down using the button on the back.

What next a thread about how disc brakes are too powerful? Suspension to controlled and well damped? Or tyres too grippy?

What next a thread about how disc brakes are too powerful? Suspension to controlled and well damped? Or tyres too grippy?

Actually I went back to a hardtail because my full sus's were boring the living crap out of me on my local trails. You can get too much of a good thing.

If your lights are too bright you can turn them down using the button on the back.

All the ones I've seen are still mentally bright when on dim, and worse still if you're riding with someone with them, or heading towards someone with them, it totally ruins the experience and trashes your night vision. Keep your stinking bright lights away from me, I like to ride in reduced vision, not just get a few more hours in the day! 🙂

If your lights are too bright you can turn them down using the button on the back.

how do undipped headlights compare to bikelights lumen wise? been flashed a few times by on coming cars, the fact that I need my lights on at least medium to see anything after passing cars have dazzled me doesn't seem to concern them. (I don't run fullpower pointing up on road)

Having too many lumens is like having a 12in c**k!
It might look impressive but it won't make any difference to quality of your ride.

I was out last night on the stiperstones and i had my lumi LEd on a mid setting, the cloud/fog (not sure which it was) was so thick that the bounce back of light made visibility worse. Helemt light was useless..

Lumi Halogens were great, the bench mark for years, but LED combo of more power and more battery life changed all that. Which was good, but the curve of uselfulness against need has flattened out now. We don't need any more light to ride in the dark.
These uber power lights are for people who don't want to ride in the dark so try and turn night in to day.

Bright lights on the road, i think we will see a daily mail style kick off about this soon. Not that anything will be done about the number of cars with badly adjusted lights, the use of fog lights, or the age old one of bikes with no lights.

Bright is right.
Surely its a man thing ,more is always better.

Lumi 10w/20w Halogen combo with a burn time of around 5hrs here. I'm completely outgunned by the lights used by the folk I ride with. I'm still not convinced I want to 'upgrade' though. Nightriding is a completely different experience to riding in daylight, the lack of illumination adds an edge to things.

I'll probably just keep pootling along at the back, relishing the challenge that my old fashioned lights give me.

Beagy,

p.s. I don't like the cold blue light that LED's give off either....brrrr!

What next a thread about how disc brakes are too powerful? Suspension to controlled and well damped? Or tyres too grippy?

this is not the point i am trying to raise. if a group of 19 has better damping and grippier tyres then it has not consequences for anyone else apart from the rider themselves.

i do think the brighter the light, the smaller the dingaling.

D0NK

how do undipped headlights compare to bikelights lumen wise?

Getting close if not brighter - I thin a single 60 w halogen is around 1200 lupins max so most cars will be kicking out a couple of thousand lupins

most cars will be kicking out a couple of thousand lupins

They're too bright when squirrels start falling out of the trees in flames. Anything up to that point is fine.

Nothing at all wrong with 4000 lumens split between bars and lid!

If 500 lumens is enough for the riding people do then they just aren't going quick enough.

[img] [/img]

These did me fine for a few years..

10w & 2.4w torch brightness!

Used to be the lights of choice in the original Red Bull 24hr, back in the day. Most people ended up riding in the dark and managed ok.

I've just bought a Supernova E3 triple so my my lights get brighter as I get faster! 800 lumens isn't that bright compared to what some people are using but the run time is pretty impressive.

Saying that riding with 4000 lumens might as well be riding in daylight is missing the point though isn't it? The rider may well rather be riding in daylight but in its abscence a nice 4000 lm lamp might be the next best thing.

I'd say those who enjoy the edgy feeling of night riding can use an older or less bright light where as those who want to be able to see everything can rock a twin Cree U2 meganutterbasterd light and there is no right or wrong. People claming that a string of fairy lights is enough for 10 riders to descend Ben Nevis on a moonless night are just forcing their standards on everybody.

Nothing at all wrong with 4000 lumens split between bars and lid!

[u]If 500 lumens is enough for the riding people do then they just aren't going quick enough[/u]

what utter bollox!

Can't wait for the next generation of LEDs. 🙂

I sometimes go up easy singletrack behind the house with an electron backup to barely light the way.20 lumens? Maybe not even 10! Its enough for me to see where i`m going so it saves the power for the nightriders i have to use on full power for the descents.

If i went out riding around the Puffer i would feel a lot safer with the likes of a diablo on the helmet on full power pushing out 975 lumens than the likes of the joystick with 325 lumens (on its own with no bar light).Its just not powerful enough for my eyes riding that trail. Going back to the diablo though.. i recon i could get by with using it on its own for quite a bit of the places i ride.

The enduro at Innerleithen on saturday i had 1975 lumens on the bars with 325 lumens on the helmet. This was riding down some downhill trails ive never ridden before the race (twice in the daylight and once in the dark during the race) and all those lumens on the bars were helping me out well.I could have put it on the medium setting and would have been better off using a diablo with 975 on the helmet but for anyone that recons 500 lumens is enough for DH.. you need to race an innerleithen day/night enduro! Fine if you have a pair of eyes that are 16 years of age and you know the trails well but not too handy descending unknown downhill trails as fast as you dare with 38 year old eyes!

So for riding on your own you can get away with low outputs.You will know the limits.

Racing downhills on unknown tracks.Get 1000 lumens on the head at least i`d say.

I used to enjoy the warmer light of halogen over LEd. I always felt I could see more detail and judge distance better. A flood and spot combo were very good. Would love to see it back to back with my china light led as the halogen is probably better in memory.

martin, I've been riding DH tracks at innerleithen for almost 2 decades, a single 500 lumen light on your head is absolutely fine there (my eyes are older than yours too).
maybe yo u should try learning the tracks before racing them?

I don't know about TOO bright, but certainly there are some extremely bright lights around now that are small enough to put on bikes. Fine in the right situation, each to their own if there's nobody about to annoy.

I agree with halogen light being better than LED light though. I used to run a pair of Vistalites on my bike, 15W + 10W halogens. Then I started using a 3W LED dynamo light + the 15W halogen (this is mostly road riding). Earlier this year I bought a Diablo and I'd say the middle setting is pretty similar to the 15W halogen in "seeability". I reckon you need more light to see properly with LEDs, but with the new LEDs you've got loads available so it's not such an issue. Not having the batteries and cables everywhere is certainly a bonus going from the Vistalites to the Diablo, regardless of the light output.

Off-road I usually ride unicycles, so much lower speed than a bike, and the Diablo on medium power is easily enough, if not slightly overkill on familiar trails. I used to use a single 10W flood halogen. I mount the light on the helmet when unicycling, which is the main reason I didn't go for a Strada instead of the Diablo. On the bike the Diablo is angled slightly downwards and I haven't had any complaints yet with it dropped to low setting for oncoming traffic (not too much traffic on my commute anyway - seeing the sheep is more of a priority, so the more light the better down hill as far as I'm concerned).

Off-road I usually ride unicycles

*remembers the early 90's*: Vistalite VL400 and a Petzl Zoom - 6 watts of raw power for about 20 minutes, only being able to ride trails I knew quite well, knowing that I was still on the trail because I hadn't ridden through the hedge, closing my eyes when cars were approaching so as to preserve my night vision, doing a little dance of celebration if it was a full moon and clear sky, improving my bike handling skills tremendously due to having to ride by 'feel' and waiting 2.5 days for the batteries to re-charge so I could do it again. I loved every minute of it!

Fast forward to the 00's and I'm on my 3rd iteration of home-made lights (first had 3 LEDs, second had 2 LEDs, third has 1 LED and hence longer and longer burn times), but each iteration has had around 300-350 lumen output for bar and head lights (BTW does that make 600-700lumens?). I can ride full-tilt and did the descent of the Verderers trail the other week as fast as I have done in the light.

It's still tremendously enjoyable, just different.

Do I need brighter lights? Not unless the people I ride with feel they have to have brighter lights.

Edit: There are a lot of lights around with unsophisticated beam patterns which overcome their poor design with pure power output. I would be interested to find out what beam patterns those who insist on mega-power lights are using, as poor beam design will mean that a 4000 lumen light will not perform better than a 400 lumen one.

I cant afford to travel down there to practice.Up here ive also got places where ive ridden for that length of time but theres no way i would choose to ride them as fast as i could with my nightrider trailrat over the likes of a diablo thrown in with a sixpack if i can wangle a shot of them.

Last week i tried hammering local trails with some great lights and still lost the plot on where i was/what corner i was on.

I envy you managing to ride to the max with only 500 lumens.. but thats something i cant and wont do!

You should race with a few thousand lumens.. you would probably podium!

Martin - next time get up earlier (or go the day before). once you're familiar with how to learn lines on DH tracks it only only really takes walking it once, a few practice runs and some sectioning of the trickier bits. obviously this won't get you as familiar with every section as a local but you should know where you are, where you want to go and which lines you've picked, after you've learned the track, getting your braking right and pacing yourself (and a little bit of luck) is all that's left hence not really needing massively powerful lights. Your mistake was trying to learn the track during your race run.

To be quite honest, anyone who gets scared by a bright light is low on my list of sympathies.

[img] [/img]

You [i]monster[/i].

I mean, you'd have to be a complete dickwad to splash that much money on a light.

EDIT: I've just checked my ageing light, which is a 10watt 'Smart' light, how do I find out how many lumens that has as I find it quite adequate.

I recon if i did all of the above i would still want to have the diablo on the helmet. It seemed that without knowing where i was going 90% of the time i was trying to aim the joystick on the helmet in the directions i thought were the best to aim for. The flood of the sixpack was great but a slightly bigger flood over the joystick (on the helmet) would probably do me fine.

They helped me a great deal looking back at it as i was getting flustered on unknown descents,getting confused and not relaxed. Instead of flowing along i felt like i was stopping and starting with my head moving around trying to aim the light to find the best possible route!

Last thing i wanted to do was ride beyond my limits,nail a tree,break something and rely on other folk to get me home. It was to get an idea of what it was all about and putting aside the over the bars moments.. i was happy how it went considering i never ride stuff like that. 2nd race in around 10 years didnt help either!

Slightly off topic I know,but are the batteries getting any more efficient?
Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't an "average" AA battery only return about 3% of the power used to fully charge it...

Slightly off topic I know,but are the batteries getting any more efficient?
Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't an "average" AA battery only return about 3% of the power used to fully charge it...

Not sure about actual energy out vs energy in though - that would be interesting to know. Where did that 3% come from? Sounds pretty poor - is that for a normal rechargeable NiCd-type cell?

was truly shocked when I realised how much it's possible to waste spend on a light ie. more than my my whole 'best bike' cost to put together

Yes it's expensive, but I use it a lot (that's my excuse anyway). My old Vistalite halogens cost me £170, but they lasted me 10 years so isn't really that bad I don't think. If the Diablo proves that reliable (I hope it does...) then I reckon that's a fair investment. Not sure I could justify the likes of £800 Lupines though!

As to whether anybody NEEDS these sorts of lights - I used to ride the same roads with a normal "Ever-Ready-type" lamp with the high powered halogen bulb (the ones with the red cases - 2W or something weren't they?), but much more slowly that I can now with modern lights. So not essential, but I know which one I prefer.

I ride in the evenings due to work and family commtiments.
I live in the North of England.
That means for 6 months of the year, its dark for all of my riding (and for the other 6 months, it gets dark at the end of a ride)
I ride in some pretty bleak places (see second line down)
I'd rather ride in daylight.
Therefore, I take daylight with me.

I've done my fair share of rides with 12w of lead-acid powered dullness, in the same way I've done some epic rides on a rigid bike with rubbish tyres and conti brakes. Its all progress.

oh, and to veer off-tangent, why don't roadies go riding at night?

Agree with Bandito's sentiments. Nightriding means I get out and have some mtb action as I spend my weekends with the family. For those with the luxury of daytime riding going out in the dark must be quite novel and fun.

We all have our reasons and make our own choices.

look around you, everyone is lit up like christmas trees or UFO's in some cases ! i'm personally more of a UFO but always better to be seen, this time of year & if you want to join into the festive spirit or to make a few motorists feel like they are about to be abducted by aliens, just for the fun of it, so be it..... 😀
look around when you riding around your local singletrack & all the others shining bright, doing the same on the hills around you, it feels good, so many enjoy your passion & that's riding at night !!!!!

WHAT THE BANDIT SAYS. I commute all year so have a Diablo for that, its 90% off road and the diablo is fine. I also ride every thurs night all year, we normally get 4 or 5 rides in without needing lights, but the rest of the time they are needed towards the end of the ride. I have a Betty for that, its reliable and lets you ride pretty much as you would in daylight. Lights are just part of the MTB frenzy to constantly upgrade/improve etc, led my clever marketing, its sometimes difficult to differentiate between want and need. Bit like gears I suppose, nowt wrong with 3x7 speed, or 28 rear sprockets, nowt wrong with canti brakes either really.... or 60mm quadra suspension....

Anyway, better to have and not need than to want and not have.

I mount the light on the helmet when unicycling

Genius. 🙂

[img] [/img]

"Are you aware that mountain bikes are not permitted on footpaths?"

oh, and to veer off-tangent, why don't roadies go riding at night?

Agree with Bandito's sentiments. Nightriding means I get out and have some mtb action as I spend my weekends with the family. For those with the luxury of daytime riding going out in the dark must be quite novel and fun.

I could ride either evenings in the dark or weekends in the day, I choose to ride evenings in the dark with non sun-like lights, nowt to do with luxuries.