180mm travel and nothing less,Nomad Carbon?
The Nomad is not a "proper" dh bike. Although something witha VPP or DW Link suspension may pedal better than, say, a true four-bar, such as a Spesh.
Get something with a Cane Creek Double Barrel shock, and tune it to your liking.
I've had a fair collection of DH and FR bikes over the years and very few could ever be described as pedalling well when compared to say a 5" all mountain bike, let alone a HT etc.
However, I've just built up a Shocker after playing around with one in Whistler at the start of the year (although admittedly I could only run it around the underground heated areas for obvious reasons).
Despite the fact it's a pure DH race frame with 9" of travel, I was pretty astounded how well it was able to pedal when I cranked the pedals.
I started building one when I got back to the UK and stuck a CCDB on it.
I've not been able to ride it much thanks to injury the first weekend I took it out, but from the time I did spend on it, it's unreal. I've only got as far as the stock settings on the CCDB, but considering I'm running at 33% sag, it's like the rear end REALLY stiffens up when you put power on the pedals.
I came off a Bullit with a DHX Air, and without a word of a lie, it pedals better than the Bullit. Granted, the geo and weight means it's not something you ever really want to be pointing up a hill, but it's far and away the most pedal efficient DH bike I've ever ridden.
Two of my friends who were with me on the day I crashed both had a blast. One is on a 2011 Demo 8 and the other on Transition TR450, they both race too. They were pretty shocked (excuse the pun!) as to how well it pedalled.
It absolutely pains me that I've still got another month or two before I can get out on it again 🙁
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Thanks peterfile,Theres quite a few rides up here in the lakes that are well suited to a full on downhill bike,The only downside would be the carrying,its inevitable your going to carry at some point but it would be great to pedal a bit if possible.
Just need to get the idea up and running, 😉
I used to have a mk1 Orange 224dd as my all rounder, which pedalled remarkably well with the shock set up properly.
I had a Nicolai ION-st,that seemed to pedal very well,used to ride it to my local hill,its 3 miles each way.rode it to my local woods and did a 12 mile loop on it.weighed 40lbs had fox 40's and 230mm of rear travel.
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Burly enough for you? Pedal well.
my lapierre froggy pedals ok(ish) with the pro-pedal on, it's got 180 at the back and 160 up front, newer models will have the 180 fox forks though, component wise it's not exactly full on downhill though
Santa Cruz Bullit maybe? Has a Patriot got enough travel?
adjustable geo/travel bikes?
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You've really got to be brutally honest with yourself before buying a full on DH bike though. It's a bit pointless for anything other than full on DH 🙂
Something like a Nomad would probably be better if you think you are going to be any non gravity assisted distances.
However, if you just need to put in a bit of rolling singletrack every now and then, a DH bike will be fine, but obviously a bit more of an effort than a 7" FR bike.
You would be amazing at what most good 7" FR bikes will handle if you set them up well. You're not likely to ever find yourself needing more unless you are pinning the WC course at Ft Bill every weekend.
I just made the choice to swap the Bullit for an out and out DH bike because I was spending so much cash on the Bullit trying to make it something it wasn't, no matter what you do they geo will never be what you could have with a DH bike. Figured I should just get another DH specific bike and leave all other riding to my other bikes.
My SOCOM pedals damn well considering how plush the travel is... Almost more like a trail bike with 8" travel really!
How about considering an Intense UZZI which has same VPP suspension?
Mojo HD? Can run a 180mm fork up the front...
It's a bit pointless for anything other than full on DH
They are also quite hard to ride until you really get going on them. Most DH bikes these days seem to be built for some sort of up coming superstar; I was always pretty freakin average at DH and my Ion ST always felt, well just a bit vague, not actuallly all that easy to manage unless I was motoring a little.
I roder the Ion ST back to back at Gawton with my Helius AM and yes the Ion was quicker but there wasn't a whole lot in it; maybe 10%?
DH bikes, modern ones at least, really only come into their own if you're racing or seriously quick IMO. Think about how easy it isn't to man handle a 40lb machine with a 63 degree HA down a slope so steep you can't hope to get off the brakes on because otherwise you'd be doing warp 9. The pros can let off the brakes because they're that good, but your average punter will be making a right hash of navigating their way down at 20mpg max.
A Nomad/Uzi VPX/Endruo/Alpine 160/Spicy/Helius AM will all let you makethe very most of the biggest official trails that the Lakes can offer and still have the potential to built into a 30lb AM bike.
I'm a bit confused as to what we are talking about here?
Thread says "proper" downhill bikes that pedal well, but then there's a lot of references to AM and FR bikes.
Sticking 180mm on a Mojo HD doesn't make it a proper DH bike, it's just a long travel bike, likewise all those adjustable geo bikes are not DH bikes.
gavgas, do you mean a long travel bike that can handle trail duties as well as a bit of DH? Or do you mean an out and out DH bike? There's quite a big difference, since a full on DH bike isn't very useful for much else, whereas something like a Mojo HD is an all round machine.
iron horse sunday, dw link travel linkage!!!!
OPer either want's a DH frame for British DH were pedalling may be good at some places?
OR wants a dh bike that can be pedalled and used as a trail machine too?
I guess?
180mm is just silly, you can't use that sort of travel anywhere in the UK except for the Surrey Hills...
OR wants a dh bike that can be pedalled and used as a trail machine too?
I'd buy a big hitting AM machine for that, Nomad, Mojo HD etc. Buying something like an 88, TR450, 951, Shocker etc for trails is a waste of cash when there are far better tools out there for the job.
yeah agreed. i'd have thought a FR/ heavy duty AM bike with less travel would be better too. Maybe they need to ride to the downhill sections / places even before they start pushing up?
If you want a "proper" downhill bike, it's never going to pedal that well and your clearly looking for the wrong bike.
Hmm....I once rode a Specialized Big Hit at Thetford and learned a lot about DH bikes and pedalling (I'd turned up on an Enduro). It was hard work, but riding The Beast on it was like being on a cross between a recumbent bike with 888s and a sofa.
If you need to pedal a lot, then you clearly don't need a DH bike. Thankfully, these days there are plenty of machines that fill the gap between 5" full suss and 7.5" DH monster, if I were in the market for such a machine I'd probably be looking at a Specialized Enduro Evo (or an SX), a Marin Quake or even something leftfield like a Genius 180.
7.5" DH monster
not many DH bikes out there sporting less than 8" these days, let alone any monsters.
What's half an inch between friends?
To be honest, this. Not really the place to be looking for genuine info or opinion about downhill bikes. As the previous posts prove.
Any decent downhill bike, set up correctly will pedal well. For the job it was intended to do.
A Nomad carbon is not a frickin downhill bike.
Mine....DH mainly but still ride it around the bridleways etc....
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had a nomad before this funny enough loved it but never trusted it 100% on rocky gardens etc like warncliffe Craggs stuff like that rear end hugged mint but front felt rather flexy or wrong as ran Fox 36RCs
Now this is MUTATION..........It flys ..............
Its like my ye old 2008 CR 250 without the Engine and only 32 lbs with my Spike rims x burgtec x AM tyres on..!(Mountain king 2.4 tubleless with stans)
36 lbs + with the DH swampthings & burgtec x 32 syncros tho....
Found a pic of the DH nomad too..
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32lb????
That's lighter than my Marin Wolf Ridge.
I love the sheer audacity of it, a DH Trek on Totems built as a very burly AM bike. Whoever you are sir, you deserve some kind of medal.
I think a few more stickers would really finish it off. There is space just under the seat clamp.
And my mum wants the handlebars back for her shopping bike by the way. 😉
Like i said i always wanted a Trek sess 88 so got a rare Large off e-bay sold the Nomadthen built the Trek up ..
It is a scream bombing down rocky decents as when im walking back up sometimes i laugh then think HOLY S**T did i hit/Ride that..
The trek does make you feel un real...it handles out to be honest as i just wish i was loads fitter.
As with helmet,pads & gear on 18 stone so good rolling mass....
Well i am big boned HE HE ! 😳
It was well scratched when i got it 🙄
thus the 1.3 million stickers & i do have a OCD with them a tad...
Wide Bars are evil !! 8)
PS was gonna have it sprayed up MINT but thought nar ,its a shredder not a show bike LOL....
PJM1974..THX fella...."Whoever you are sir, you deserve some kind of medal. "
Id rather have pie & peas bud ... 😀 Cheers ..
Sessions are awesome bikes and pedal very well too.
Got the Roco WC rear shock proper dialed now so its pretty good...
Just turn the adjuster - full then point DH & GO GO GO !
any 22x with a PUSH'd shock... pedals very well.
xiphon - Memberany 22x with a PUSH'd shock... pedals very well.
My mate's got a 224 with a Push'd shock and pedalling it up a hill is much like sprinting on a bouncy castle. Great bike mind and superb at what it's supposed to do, but horrible pedaller by anything other than DH bike standards.
I used to ride a marin quake around afan on 4-5 hour XC rides and Shaums March was winning downhill races on it, so surely that qualifies it as a DH bike that pedals well 🙂
Edit to add its a totally under-rated bike by anyone other than people that have owned one, the first ride i did on one at Cwmcarn DH (on a demo day) it blew me away far plusher than the Big Hit i was using at the time, i bought one straight away very impressive...
Thanks for the responses folks,I agree your never going to find a proper dh bike the pedals as well/efficently as a 140 travel xc bike, although its interesting to find some people with designs that seem to be ok,I would like to do a few dh races at some point,and quite a lot of the local tuesday night rides are well suited to a big travel bike,we do about 10 to 15 miles with a lot of carry!
How about an Intense Slopestyle?
Canfield The One, light DH/FR bike that pedals well.
[url= http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5259/5462323041_4c6f2469b8.jp g" target="_blank">
[url= http://www.flickr.com/photos/93388219@N00/5462323041/ ]2011Onefull[/url] by [url= http://www.flickr.com/people/93388219@N00/ ]srbwilson[/url], on Flickr
After breaking my XC bike, I rode my Santa Cruz VP_Free around Newcastleton (that's the one with McMoab, right?) and was surprised at how reasonable it was.
It's got an 888 on at the moment so 200mm front and 215mm back - is that what the "cool kids" still count as full-on DH??
Rachel
Thanks for the responses folks,I agree your never going to find a proper dh bike the pedals as well/efficently as a 140 travel xc bike, although its interesting to find some people with designs that seem to be ok,I would like to do a few dh races at some point,and quite a lot of the local tuesday night rides are well suited to a big travel bike,we do about 10 to 15 miles with a lot of carry!
would you want to carry a 40lbs bike that generally dont lend themselves to being easily carried though?
Just get a long travel mince tank. It'll be better for normal riding and easily survive a few races. If you then decide that DH is for you then look at getting a full-bore dh ride.
The good-at-pedalling dh bike thing is a load of shite imo. 40lbs, 2.5 supertacky tyres, low tyre pressures, single chainring, wide bars, short stem, slack headangle, slack seat angle, tonnes of rear sag when seated, etc, etc..... doesn't matter what the design is, it's always going to lose against those odds
Sorry Rachel, the VP-Free never was "full-on DH". There's a hint in the name 😉
(that's the one with McMoab, right?)
Kirroughtree 🙂
My GT DHI with it's mixture of I-drive and pro pedal rode up hills better than my sub5. You can sometimes find U Turn boxxers kicking about too, if you absolutely must ride up hills on a DH bike that combination would be my weapon of choice.
Sounds like exactly what I use my Cove STD for. That suspension design pedals great, no bobbing and the head angle is about 65deg. It climbs as well as you have the legs for, I can get up most stuff on it. BUT, it's heavy... mine is 40lbs and it wears me down over a day. It's not a full on DH bike, similar to the VP-Free, but I've used it for lift assisted DH and kept up with the big bikes no bother... in fact it's faster in the tighter stuff. Mine's built up heavy with Diabolous and coil Totems.
I used a Kona Stab for the Passeportes Du Sleil last year and can attest to the fact that it's totally rubbish for pedalling uphill.
If you really need 180mm of travel and slack angles, try a Patriot. Not so good for full-on DH. but really not far behind if you're just playing on Alpine slopes. And it'll pedal uphill all day if your legs and heart will take it.
The Intense Uzzi will do exactly what you want, pic of mine taken on a 38km route with a lot of climbing. As long as you change the tyres for doing trail riding it will do what you need. I even have a granny ring fitted to mine.
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It's not light (c37lbs) but can't say I notice the extra weight. The newer version is lighter.
I used a Kona Stab for the Passeportes Du Sleil
anyone who even tries to pedal a stab uphill deserves a medal in my book 🙂
anyone who even tries to pedal a stab uphill deserves a medal in my book
It has to be said that the downhills were a lot of fun, but the climbs were tragically difficult, especially with the obligatory road cassette fitted. And full armour. And a full-face helmet. On a really hot day.
I lost 3kg in the day and was peeing something which was bright orange and seemingly semi-solid. Still, we finished in a good time (in the pub by 3.30pm) and good fun was had by all.
I'll not be using the Stab this year though.......
Uzzi VP makes a pretty good attempt at both things. You can faff around with the dropouts to raise/lower & steepen/slacken the BB & HA respectively.
Mine comes in at 35lb, with an all day spec on it, that can still cope with some fairly serious DH ragging. (did a day at Inners the other week without any changes and was hitting all the big drops and jumps fine). Change of tyres to 2.5 twin plys and you're good to hit anything. Bit draggy uphill like that, but still manageable.
Personally I wouldn't actually want a full DH bike in the UK as uplifts are too few and far between. It's always faster and less effort to ride up if the bike will let you, and how fast you go back down is more about mindset than anything else.
I love that Bike of Si progressive bikes,the long seat tube allows good seat height adjustment,some clever linkage design too..
feel free to ignore me, because i'm an idiot.
if you're not racing Dh, you don't need a Dh bike.
even if you [i]are[/i] racing Dh, unless you're really fast, and hitting things really hard, you don't need a Dh bike.
so awhiles what bike would you suggest for
moelfre
aston
cwmcarn
caersws
nant gertherin (sp?)
just uplifts not races?
these are just suggestions:
something with a granny ring, that allows correct saddle height for pedalling, with about 160mm travel.
specialized enduro / sx trail? giant reign? Santa Cruz Nomad / Butcher? one of those intense things? - something like that.
consider that the world's fastest plumber won the last 2 sheffield races on a 29er Xc bike...
if you're not racing Dh, you don't need a Dh bike.even if you are racing Dh, unless you're really fast, and hitting things really hard, you don't need a Dh bike.
I agree.
Masses of travel and fat stanchions does not make a downhill bike.
its all in the angles, and due to the stupid angles on proper DH "sleds" you cant use the bloody things for ANYTHING else.
if you can, its a FR bike at worst, maybe just a FAT all mountain bike.
Giant Maestro system pedals amazingly well.
If you want a DH bike, buy the Glory DH
If you want more travel than you know what to do with on a trail bike, buy the straight Glory, or the faith.
the angles are totally different iirc
i wanted to play uplifts, and be able to hack most DH tracks, but am not fussed about keeping up, and would also like to be able to wind up the hills.
so bought my patriot 66.
can be set up to pedal like a trail bike.
slackened off and used as a "miniDH" bike.
wouldnt consider calling it a DH bike though.
incidently, most DH races have a hardtail class, and you wont seem many forks longer than pikes.
Specialized SX Trail is probably the bike for this kind of riding. No need for a full on DH bike unless your actually racing every other weekend. None of them pedal particularly well compared to say a Nomad. Its horses for courses. Theres a whole raft of new 180mm travel bikes that'll be better suited for it, new Genius LT looks a very interesting proposition.
PeteG55Specialized SX Trail is probably the bike for this kind of riding.
Agree. It's been ridden to a top five finish at a DH World Champs, so I think that shows it's DH credentials, the seat angle isn't stupidly slack so you can peddle it, and it actually pedals very well (though the slack ha limits it on climbs).
My 2007 one, with coil totems and shock weighs under 36lbs with 2x2 ply tyres. Considerably less with single ply. Shame spesh aren't bringing any into the uk this year.
GaVgAs - MemberThanks for the responses folks,I agree your never going to find a proper dh bike the pedals as well/efficently as a [b]140 travel xc bike[/b]
WUT
kimbers - Memberso awhiles what bike would you suggest for
moelfre aston cwmcarn caersws nant gertherin (sp?)just uplifts not races?
I'd take my Hemlock personally. Though I don't like it getting mauled in uplift trucks.
what bike would you suggest for
moelfre
aston
cwmcarn
caersws
nant gertherin (sp?)just uplifts not races?
I'll say it again - Intense Uzzi. Although an SX is another very good option.
i rode my 50lb demo9 round the glentress black etc...
i rode my 50lb demo9 round the glentress black etc...
But I rode it fixed/rigid and in your sister's jeans. So I'm considerably more niche than you.
I'll say it again - Intense Uzzi
+1
My VP-Free goes around the trails at Cannock almost as easily as my 6" travel bike. If you can find a used one in good nick it's more than enough for any DH the UK has to offer.
Another +vote for a Marin Quake, bit heavy at 43lbs but it will go up hill if you spin, however you do notice the weight on anything but downhill.
if you're not racing Dh, you don't need a Dh bike.even if you are racing Dh, unless you're really fast, and hitting things really hard, you don't need a Dh bike.
Of course you don't NEED a DH bike. The same way you don't need an XC whippet to ride around an XC course, you can go round in your BMX if you want. It's just that the XC bike will be set up to get round the thing more efficiently and quicker.
I don't get your second point at all though. Every race I've ever entered, I've had two goals: to go as fast as possible and not to crash. So suggesting that people who race DH, but aren't really fast (I seldom finish in the top 25% so I class myself in that group), don't need a DH bike is a bit odd. Can you explain to me how people like me are going to improve their finishing positions on a Nomad compared to DH bike?
It's got naff all to do with "hitting things really hard". The more things you hit hard when you're racing, the slower you go. It's all about line choice, control and speed - but they are interlinked.
DH frames are designed for just that, being able to control a bike at speed on rough terrain. Therefore, the following characteristics, which are designed to be DH specific (rather than worrying about whether it's good for going back up the hill, on a Nomad etc) are all beneficial to me:
stiffness
slack head angle
long chainstays
bottom bracket height
long wheelbase
suspension design
and of course, when you DO hit things hard on a bike, you want it to be as robust as possible (unless you like replacing £2.5k frames on a monthly basis), and DH bikes generally offer a higher degree of strength than bikes deisgned for other disciplines.
consider that the world's fastest plumber won the last 2 sheffield races on a 29er Xc bike
He can go quicker than the rest of the field on pretty much any bike because he is extremely strong, amazingly smooth and has a brain that tunes into good lines quicker than Charlie Sheen. Most of us have less than 10% of the bike handling skills that he does. It's like saying you can win at snooker playing with your opposite hand just because O'Sullivan does it.
its all in the angles, and due to the stupid angles on proper DH "sleds" you cant use the bloody things for ANYTHING else.
Stupid angles? Yeah, the designers really missed a trick there by sticking DH specific geometry on a DH specific bike. Someone should have a word with them.
Sorry to state the obvious, but why would you buy a £5k DH race bike for anything else? It's not designed for anything else, it's a DH bike. Would you buy a trials bike and complain it's rubbish for enduro events because you can't sit down?
I used to race DH on an old FSR. It got me down every course I ever visited. But to suggest that DH bikes have no purpose unless you are racing DH hard and fast is a bit silly.
I still take AM and FR bikes to some uplift days because some courses are more fun on those bikes (and in some cases even quicker). I took a 7" freeride bike to Whistler last time I went and left the DH bike at home.
But I'd still never turn up at Fort Bill with a AM/FR bike when I've got something else in the shed that will get me down quicker and with less chance of losing control at 40mph.
I have a Cove Shocker and it pedals ok - for a DH bike. Rode the Mega course on it but switched to my Hustler for the actual event.
Having riden Cwm Carn uplift on a Hustler, G-Spot and a Shocker my thoughts would be that the G-Spot (a FR/AM/Trail bike) would suit the OPs 'situation'.
Not too restrictive on the XC stuff but still very capable on the DH stuff.
Then if after doing a few DH events they feel that DHs for them buy something DH specific.
why not just get a dh bike and man up? I rode the SDW in a day on my 45lb Gemini. Granted not a DH bike by modern standards (was in it's day) but it doesn't pedal for toffee 🙂
For me it has to be an Intense Uzzi. Perfect for the UK and more than capable in the Alps. It'll do all you ask and it'll pedal up again if you need to.
Foes RS7 apparently loads of US rider use them in stead of nomads and designed as a race specific 7" DH bike.
I race mine DH and love it. With the air shock the pedalling efficiency is excellent.
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one_happy_hippyFoes RS7 apparently loads of US rider use them in stead of nomads and designed as a race specific 7" DH bike.
They peddle really efficiently, but a super slack seat angle and head angle (it's more like 64 than the 66 foes say) means it would be a pig to do any distance / climbing. Also, even an full bling build will struggle to get under 38lbs without silly components.
The OP will never get all that moon on his stick.
The RS7 is an AWESOME bike. I had a full day on one and it was outstanding. really came into it's own when things slowed down and got really technical.
Foes designed it as a short travel DH bike, so the geo is all spot on, but just doesn't have the extra bulk and monster turning cicle of a bigger bike.
Short travel DH bikes may well be the way to go for most UK DH courses, but there just isn't a great deal of choice around at the moment. most people tend to make do with a FR bike instead.
They peddle really efficiently, but a super slack seat angle and head angle (it's more like 64 than the 66 foes say) means it would be a pig to do any distance / climbing.
It's a [b]DH race bike[/b], why would you buy it to do any distance or climbing?
peterfile - MemberI don't get your second point at all though. Every race I've ever entered, I've had two goals: to go as fast as possible and not to crash. So suggesting that people who race DH, but aren't really fast (I seldom finish in the top 25% so I class myself in that group), don't need a DH bike is a bit odd. Can you explain to me how people like me are going to improve their finishing positions on a Nomad compared to DH bike?
easy:
i race Dh, and i try to go as fast as i can - but i'm not that good/quick, and i usually finish in the bottom 3rd of the field.
Dh bikes usually have around 200mm of travel, that's loads. if i set the spring rates so that the bike feels 'nice', with sensible amounts of sag, then i rarely if ever use all that travel.
if i set the spring rates so that i use 200mm of travel, then the bike just feels very soft and wallowy.
i can only speak for myself, but i'm faster/happier on a bike with less travel.
i did point out that i'm an idiot, and very slow on a bike,
peterfileIt's a DH race bike, why would you buy it to do any distance or climbing?
I wouldn't. But if you read the thread you will see that the op is confused between something like a Nomad with a 180mm fork and an actual DH bike. He's also stated that he intends the bike for 15 mile rides. So cram it.
Dh bikes usually have around 200mm of travel, that's loads. if i set the spring rates so that the bike feels 'nice', with sensible amounts of sag, then i rarely if ever use all that travel.if i set the spring rates so that i use 200mm of travel, then the bike just feels very soft and wallowy.
i can only speak for myself, but i'm faster/happier on a bike with less travel.
i did point out that i'm an idiot, and very slow on a bike,
but travel is just one ingredient to a good DH frame.
I would far rather have less travel and DH specific geometry than loads of travel and AM geometry.
Agreed, if you are regularly bottoming out 8/9" of travel in a DH race then you probably hitting things you shouldn't be 🙂
I wouldn't. But if you read the thread you will see that the op is confused between something like a Nomad with a 180mm fork and an actual DH bike. He's also stated that he intends the bike for 15 mile rides. So cram it.
So cram it? Charming.
If YOU read the thread you would see that the last 2 pages of advice is that you shouldn't really be buying a DH bike for any sort of riding other than DH.
New Patriot? Haven't looked through all the replies, but has anyone mentioned the new Orange Patriot? I think there's one on its way. If so, it should fit the bill. I have an '09 Patriot and it's superb, and fitted with 180mm 36s or Boxxers it would make a great easily-pedalled mini-dh bike. Failing that, 224 or its successor - I've seen folk pedal them uphill for miles, they disappear in a cloud of dust as soon as the dh starts.
peterfileSo cram it? Charming.
If YOU read the thread you would see that the last 2 pages of advice is that you shouldn't really be buying a DH bike for any sort of riding other than DH.
[b]IF YOU[/b]......nevermind.
My reply to this
one_happy_hippyFoes RS7 apparently loads of US rider use them in stead of nomads..
was to highlight that the RS7 would not make a suitable Nomad replacement as it is a DH bike not an AM bike. Quite obvious to me, but maybe not the OP. We are saying the same thing, but you elected to tell me that the Foes was a [b]DH RACE BIKE IN BOLD!![/b] which I obviously knew, and hence you came across like and arsehole. 🙂