[Closed] Are Fox forks an inherently poor design?

Yep. It's a well known issue with them which FOX do nothing about.

Inherently reliant upon frequent servicing more like

What's your service interval ?

How often do you replace the seals ?

That degree of wear didn't happen overnight..

Been there , after 10 months of TLC it still happened got the CSU replaced then bought some Lyriks instead .S'funny though for how much they cost and how they are marketed in the advertising you could be forgiven for thinking they were the dogs thingy bits !

what you can do with them they are great, but build quality quite poor for the price they sell them at.

It's just another company that has got a name for itself when it was good and now they have a name for themselves the build quality comes down, using cheaper materails and wanting bigger profits.

Kashima does nothing either, my 36 float 180's are dead too

enfht..I bought them second hand at the beginning of June. First thing I did before using them was to clean them out and change the oil. There were signs of wear but not nearly as bad as they are in the pics. When I took them apart today and drained them the oil was pretty clean so the seals are good. I just think those friction pads are a silly idea.

nasher interesting that Kashima hasn't changed the outcome .

nasher thanks for telling me that.....I was thinking of perhaps changing the inners after the winter to kashima coated ones. Now I'll be considering changing to lyriks next year

just get bombers!

Yeah, that would never happen with Rockshox.

[img] [/img]

BTW is there actually a problem with the forks? I'm still using those Pikes in the pic above (after the nail varnish fix) and they work absolutely fine and don't even leak oil at all. I'm betting those Fox 36s will give you years of use.

The forks are great but the seals they use are cr*p. Putting the Enduro seals on fettles the problem my forks are 2 years old and the stanchions are still perfect.

Damage like that is caused by warn bushings (the white liners in the lowers). Like any bushings they dont last forever and do need replacg. This it down to poor maintance on the fork (more likely to be before you got them by the sounds of it) unfortunately. If you speak to mojo they should be able to advise you on a cost for new uppers and bushings.

Fox forks should have a lowers service every 20 hours of use. Basically pop the seals up and clean them, relube the sponge rings and then put them back together. Its about a 10min job but keeps them running sweet. Check out mojo website for more info on servicing them

see above (beat me too it )

i had similar wear on my 32s, the tf engineer servicing them said that fox allow like a mm of play in the bushing, without this play they wouldnt be as plush, but without regular servicing it causes the coating to wear.

Its the seals allowing the crud in that causes the wear, they use a wiper seal system which ain't up to UK conditions. The Enduro seal is a proper oil seal which keeps the oil in and the crud out.

A good reason to not stray from the church of Marzocchi now they are back on form!

Why isn't enterprising soul knocking out new uppers for £50.00? 3 tubes & a piece of alloy?

Anyone know what new bushings cost ?

Can you change them yourself or do you need to post the lowers to mojo etc?

they are shoddy and so overpriced it's embarrassing, the £700 stickers on them should say MUG not FOX...

enfht that's what I would like to know.....I want to avoid sending them to mojo if possible. The bushings look a little awkward to replace and since mojo would probably just replace the lowers it's effectively a new fork if I get the bushings AND the uppers replaced. Not sure this would be cost effective. I won't be looking at Fox forks in the future but then I don't know what the internals are like on other forks. Anyone care to post some pics? I had marzocchi bomber Z1s years ago....they were easy to service, cheap seals and had no probs with them at all. The bike was stolen eventually or I'd still have them today.

My experience has been the exact opposite, never serviced them and had years of faultless service from my Fox forks - seem to last really well.

Loco of here seems a good sort

runs a suspension business - give him a shout for an opinion

http://locotuning.co.uk/

As far as i understand, getting mojo to replace the bushing s isnt a big job. Since they have a the right tools. You might aswell go and speak to the experts, a phone costs nothing and yourll know exactly where you stand.

grum - Member

Yeah, that would never happen with Rockshox.

Course it does, but you know full well it's fairly common with Fox and rare with Rockshox. And numerous times they've "improved durability" but it's never worked yet (Kashima was supposed to improve durability yet came with a massive drop in the service intervals!)

Fox forks should have a lowers service every 20 hours of use.

So they're no use for a 24hr solo effort then? 😉

Course it does, but you know full well it's common with Fox and rare with Rockshox.

I dunno, I know lots of people on here go on about it with Fox, but I've never seen any figures. My personal evidence is that it happens to 100% of Rockshox forks, and no Fox forks.

As above I think people also get massively worked up about it - I bet those forks in the OP would last for years and years.

If I'd just bought a set of Fox forks for a ridiculous sum of money and they did that, I'd want someone's head on a pike (no rockshox pun intended).

That said, I know a guy with a set of 2004 Vanillas that have never been fully serviced beyond a mere lube job but are still in excellent fettle.

Top tip for what it's worth...and this came from one of the service guys at Mojo.

In between rides or the night before turn your bike upside down, this allows the fluid in the fork to run down and soak the seals and pads, which helps keep everything lubricated inside and catch any crap that gets past the wiper seal.

I agree that the official service practice is over the top and unpractical for most riders but keeping the seals clean and removing anything gritty from the seal face, as well as inverting the bike, seems to have worked for me.

+1 for frequently inverting the bike.

another tip is to fit a MuckyNutz front fender, it does a great job of keeping the seal area clean.

If I'd just bought a set of Fox forks for a ridiculous sum of money and they did that, I'd want someone's head on a pike

He didn't though, he bought them 2nd hand.

second hand forks can be problematic if the original owner has ignored the service intervals and has regularly ridden in poor conditions which can cause the damage seen in your photos

I have run a number of Fox 32 and 36 forks, followed the "lowers" service intervals (with a pinch of salt...20 hours? more like 8-12 weeks) and never had any issues with premature stanchion wear

I have seen numerous fox forks come through my workshop which have had little to no maintainance and most have had issues with stanchion wear because the fork is dry and contaminated with mud / sand...

have also seen this problem with Rockshox forks (pike, lyric, totem, etc.)

nothing wrong with Fox forks as far am I am concerned, but they do require regular work to keep them sweet?

"fork juice" (silicon spray) or Finish Line Dry Lube are well worth using on the fork seals after cleaning to keep the fork feeling slippery and to prevent a build-up of contaminants on the inside lip of the wiper seal

Like the look of the MuckyNutz fender... think i'm going to try one of those for the winter onslaught

IIRC fox didn't do replacement bushings it was all new lower dunno if this has changed...?

For the record I've not had wear issues, got some new 32 floats last year ok so far, I had some 03 vanillas, that I only stopped using end of last year, had the bushings adjusted once during servicing to remove play, they've since developed a lot more play but I was offered some cheap SH floats so the £90 service didn't seem worth it. no stanchion wear so if bushings are available I may resurrect them.

Fox forks should have a lowers service every 20 hours of use.

20 hours? All forks suffer from wear and failure, but I think I'll stick with my DT Swiss and their 200 hour service interval.

I keep a cycling journal that ensures I hit such service intervals spot-on. Being anal has its advantages......

Fox need to improve their seals. They feel better than rock shox, but only because the seals don't work so there is no stiction. Its a poor compromise in the UK where we have dirt and grit. Honestly, the things are not fit for purpose.

I have run a number of Fox 32 and 36 forks, followed the "lowers" service intervals (with a pinch of salt...20 hours? more like 8-12 weeks) and never had any issues with premature stanchion wear

Same here

no problems with 05 36 talas or my 2003 125 vanillas

The new 2012 model have improved seals (skf)and a 100 hour service interval.Never had any trouble with older ones though and just clean them and use some fork juice. usually get them fully serviced professionally once a year and have never had the stanchions marked.

New SKF/Fox dual lip seals are better performance and sealing wise and the Kashima coat is also tougher and performs better.

The forks do need to be looked after in line or there abouts to the service guides issued though, I have always run Fox and my next set will be Fox too.

So the guy who knows more about suspension than any of use uses Fox forks, despite them being 'not fit for purpose'. Strange.... 😛

Loco, with how much salt would you say that fox's intervals need to be taken with? I.e. Surely my rear float should be able to handle more than two rides in the rain/mud without a full air sleeve rebuild?

And grum - he has the know-how and ability to look after them like a mechanic: people were more shunning them because they seem to ask so much more of their owners.

I have run a number of Fox 32 and 36 forks, followed the "lowers" service intervals (with a pinch of salt...20 hours? more like 8-12 weeks) and never had any issues with premature stanchion wear

Same here

And me, well - months.

im going to change the oil in my 130mm talas next month, i have had them for around 2 years but have been used more on road with the lock out on than off road. i have never serviced them before as they were on the bike when i got it second hand so i dont no when they last good worked on, im expecting them to have wear after reading this thread

My F120's are being serviced for the first time in 2 years of UK riding. I have lots of these wear marks but have not had any oil leaks yet. My mechanic advised a full stanchion change which is about 200 quid worth. I'm just going to change the seals and ride them until they completely die.

just to throw in more personal experience...all of these forks are still in regular use either by me, my girlfriend or on the front of friends bikes as loaners.

2003 Vanilla 125 - never serviced, sold in 2006, new owner changed oil once, bushings now sloppy but still working ok.

2004? Vanilla 130 - dropped the lowers off about 3 years ago, were perfect then, still work perfect now although slightly weepy seal on one side so might change that soon.

2005 36 TALAS - bought 2nd hand in 2008, no idea about previous owner services, I was going to service them this year but cracked the lowers so had new lowers fitted, apparently uppers were fine when the shop swapped them for me.

2009 36 TALAS - bought 2nd hand in 2010, no idea about previous owner services, no *visible* signs of wear but then I've never taken the lowers off these forks yet so who knows.... feel peachy though 🙂

2007 36 Floats - bought 2nd hand this year, no idea about previous services, lowers dropped off last week and no signs of wear, will keep riding and recheck in the spring.

2008 32 Vanilla - no service yet, going on previous vanillas I don't intend to service them either unless they start feeling poo or oil comes out of bits its not supposed to.

2006 Coil Recons - weepy seal, other than that no wear that i could see when i dropped the lowers yesterday aftnoon.

2010 Domains - never touched them, dont intend to, i recon they will go on forever

1999 Marzocchi Z1 - changed the oil about 5 years ago, still perfect

1999 Marzocchi Z2 - never touched them, still work fine, no leaks yet...

2005 Boxxers - klunky, leaky, scratched and chipped uppers but no wear - def in need of a service internally....

FWIW, I rarely if ever actually clean my bikes (ask my mates, they will vouch for that...), I wipe off the big clumps from the whirly bits and the bouncy bits, apply a little lube and other than that i just wait for the bumps and puddles to rattle/splash the rest off.

So going on my personal experience, pretty much all forks are reliable for me, I ruined a few pairs of judys in the 90's but I dont really count them, they were awful.

I thought I'd replace the seals although on the whole they seemed fine. Evans only had the newer (SKF) seals in stock which are almost double the price of the older ones. I would have just bought the older seals to be honest if they'd had them but I want get back on my bike asap. I'm posting some side by side comparison photos for all you Seal Geeks out there so you can make up your own minds whether the upgrade is worth it. SKF seal is on the right (SKF just visible at the top). The lip on the newer seal feels stiffer.

[URL= http://media.use.com/images/s_2/0b3dcf229ab88df658a0_1.jpg [/IMG][/URL][URL= http://www.use.com/0b3dcf229ab88df658a0?p=2 ][IMG] http://media.use.com/images/s_2/0b3dcf229ab88df658a0_2.jpg [/IMG][/URL][URL= http://www.use.com/0b3dcf229ab88df658a0?p=3 ][IMG] http://media.use.com/images/s_2/0b3dcf229ab88df658a0_3.jp g" target="_blank">http://media.use.com/images/s_2/0b3dcf229ab88df658a0_1.jpg [/IMG][/URL][URL= http://www.use.com/0b3dcf229ab88df658a0?p=2 ][IMG] http://media.use.com/images/s_2/0b3dcf229ab88df658a0_2.jpg [/IMG][/URL][URL= http://www.use.com/0b3dcf229ab88df658a0?p=3 ][IMG] http://media.use.com/images/s_2/0b3dcf229ab88df658a0_3.jp g"/> [/IMG][/URL]

I'm convinced this whole "Fox stanchions wear out quick", is just a load of guff, and they don't wear any quicker than any other manufacturer. I think that people have picked up on the relatively short service intervals, coupled this with a few tales of wear and decided that they must wear quick.

Over and above my personal experience I have a mate who owns a set of float 36's and a Dhx4 air shock that I sold him in 2008, which I'd bought 2nd hand in 2007. He lives in Morzine and have done 3 seasons of daily riding and 2 x mega's. The 36's eventually had an oil change and wiper seal service this year, and they had negligable wear. However, like me, he cleans the bike after any crappy weather ride, and sprays the stanchions with silicon spray. He's never touched the Dhx and it still works fine.

I'm going to change the oil and seals today in my Fox 32 Talas 140mm from 2008. My first time, wish me luck and please post any useful tips guys because like I said it's my first time.

In fact, a question... I have enduro seals in right now. I bought standard Fox seals last week new. Can I use the foam rings in my new pack and the older enduro outers? would like to know before I try!

Thanks, Rob.

[url= http://service.foxracingshox.com/consumers/Content/Service/QuickTech/32_Talas_ll_seal_change.htm ]simple talas service[/url]

2 * 32 2007 talas, 2006 32 floats and 2010 36 talas. Not had any stantion wear and don't adhere to the fox service intervals. One set of the 2007 has done over 15,000 miles and has been a delight to own , easy to service and has worked faultlessly in all conditions (though the talas can be slow to respond around the -10 mark). I occasionally oil the stantions and seals with a few drops of float fluid and lift the seals and run them over electrical tape when they start showing signs of oil is passing them and try and change the seals and oil on a yearly basis. Whether it's luck/location or some other reason I don't know, i did read somewhere that some people were suggesting it was the acid in stuff like muck off.

this whole "Fox stanchions wear out quick", is just a load of guff,

This is my admittedly limited experience:

1. Fox 32 RL 2009 - washed and silicone sprayed after every ride. Lasted about 8 months before inner surface of LH leg showed scoring from bushings. No servicing done. Dropped lowers at 8 months to change oil etc and found already too late, damage done.

2. Rockshox Reba Team 2009 - washed and silicone sprayed after every ride. Lasted about 18 months before showing a wear patch in coating at rear of RH leg. Dropped lowers etc once at about 9 months. No damage at that point.

3. 2010 Marzocchi 44RC3Ti - washed and silicone sprayed after every ride. Only one year in so far and not touched 'em but can see no signs of wear. Will drop lowers to check soon.

Limited sample, but I'd say:
1. Fox was just not fit for purpose. The failure mode is exactly the same as everyone else has experienced. This is a design fault. I won't buy another Fox fork. (Not had any problem with RP2 rear though)

2. RS wear was very localised to the point on the stanchion where the mid point of the travel passed through the seal. When I stripped them, the foam ring was mucky and so I'm putting this down to not servicing early enough. Could have been avoided maybe, seems like I just got unlucky with some dirt becoming trapped 🙁 Would buy again but treat with care.

3. The Marzocchi has been faultless so far but I haven't stripped yet so will defer full judgement.

So far .... Marzocchi (OK) > RS (almost acceptable) > Fox (absolute rubbish)
All IMHO and limited experience of course.

I bought a 2nd hand pair of fox floats ran them for over 12 months with no maintenance on them at all. Finally got them serviced them in July this year - no problems.

What rotor sizes are people using that are seeing stanchion wear?

@clunk: Nice one mate!

I have wotans on both of my bikes. No such problems. Really beautifully manufactured internals plus very easy and quick to self service.

Maybe the stiffness of them also help to avoid rubbing issues?

The oil bath also constantly lubricates the stanchions.

Can't recommend them more.

mildred, I can't agree with that at all.

This is my admittedly limited experience:

1. Fox 32 RL 2009 - washed and silicone sprayed after every ride. Lasted about 8 months before inner surface of LH leg showed scoring from bushings. No servicing done. Dropped lowers at 8 months to change oil etc and found already too late, damage done.

hang on a sec....

8 months, no service, and you're claiming not fit for purpose?

I know in my own post i said mine had been fine with little to no servicing for longer but had they shown signs of wear I wouldn't be placing the blame on the forks since I haven't looked after them at all.

I have a set of 2005 36 Talas R's that Ive owned since new, I think they've been serviced 3 times by mojo in the last 6 years, and they were absolutely fine at the last service, no stantion wear. I didnt perform any sort of interim seal servicing. all I did was squirt a bit of silicone lubricant on the stantions occaisonally.

I also have a 2006 dhx air 5 and that hasnt been professionally serviced at all, but I did do an air can service once a couple of years ago, and its still mostly fine, it could probably do with a proper service as its making a squish noise which I think indicates the oil is aerated.

i serviced my talas rl last night, i have had them for 2 years and git them second hand, everything inside was fine, the oil was a little dirty but thats it. i think i may service them more often as it only costs £15 for a 32mm seal kit from mojo once you already have the oil

i did find one small scratch on the stanchion, its external, around 5mm long and i can feel it with my nail, hope this does not cause any issues

also done my rear rp23, also fine

To answer the OP's quesion. Yes, I'd say they are an inherantly bad design, certainly as far as UK condition are concerned:-

1) Sliding one tube through another to transfer impact forces from a different angle (usually not in the plane of sliding) means you're not off to a good start and relying on lubricant and a very thin, slippery coating in an attempt to reduce the inevitable friction and resist wear and tear isn't great either.

2) The open stanchion / seal concept on mtb forks is fundamentally flawed for everything but that nice dust you get overseas - make them better / tighter and you introduce stiction, make them looser and the fork becomes more plush but dirt gets in and starts sanding the stanchions / bushings for you.

3) The bearing surface is exposed to the elements, incredibly thin and part of the main structure of the fork rather than being sacrificial. Because of this, repair is usually almost as expensive as replacement.

I had a conversation recently with someone who works at a very well known suspension servicing company. He told me the quality control at Fox is all over the place - some will go on for ever and others will start to wear pretty fast. He also said their damping unit design is poor compared to Rock Shocks' - RS had already patented the sensible way of doing it and Fox had to come up with a different (and more convoluted) way of achieving the same thing.

Jim points 1 to 3 do cover the 'weak points' of telescopic fork design as with motorcycles too, dispite this and numerous different systems being tried, notably the BWM front suspension system, telescopic forks are still the main type of front suspension system used.

The suspension company would in reference would most likely be refering to the older open bath damping system in the fox forks, the newer FIT dampers are very good.

In light of jimification's undeniably true observations on the shortcomings of current fork design, should we be considering additional stanchion protection? Maybe neoprene covers weren't such a bad idea.

The trouble is that unless the protection is regulary cleaned 'they' tend to become a reservoir for dirt and you end up with accelerated wear.

Yeah, I can imagine that LoCo.
Think I might revisit the options for preventing the area around the stanchions catching all the flying muck. One of theose fender things maybe, instead of a Neogaurd type which might be exacerbating the problem by doing its job and catching more cr&p!

The mucky nutz ones seem to do quite a good job

Funny how you VERY rarely see this issue cropping up on much bigger sites like MTBR.

I've not heard about Canadian riders having issues and they ride in very wet/muddy conditions where forks get ridden pretty hard. Or is that the wrong type of mud? Maybe riding harder causes more bath oil to circulate and prevents wear. Riding on tow paths leave them dry so you get wear 😉

It's just an urban myth perpetuated by fox haterz. Just joking, kind of.

Off to the mancave tonight to fashion something resembling a Mucky Nutz from a PET drink bottle and a few cableties....