He's right it is very difficult in poor visibility, and a GPS is a great help, but not as much as you might wish for if you're relying on it to guide you down the appropriate gully off a mountain ridge.
In answer to your question, the idea is that you shouldn't really be using a map to find your location in poor visibility, you should already know it.
To all those on here who think it's OK to rely on a technology to make up for lake of equipment or skill, it's time to wake up!
GPS's are great tools, but they can and do fail. I've had batteries fail well before they should, supposedly waterproof GPS fill up with water (quite comical at the time, on a night time search - fortunately I knew the area well, & had map & compass), also a broken screen. A light of some sort is also kind of handy. I once went on a rescue for a mountain biker who was stuck on the high fells after dark after a mechanical issue. Said he didn't need to carry a torch as he could move much faster than a walker...... Best to remember that if your bike lets you down you really are just a walker. Oh, if you get injured you really need the same kit that a walker would be expected to carry.
Mountain bikes are great in wild places, but take responsibility for yourself and your actions. Rant over!!
Felltop - he speaks da troof 8)
Finding your location using an OS map and compass - the idea is that you keep track of where you are at all times, so hopefully this does not occur..... In reality it does happen, especially on a bike when it can be difficult to judge distance travelled. This is where GPS CAN be really useful (with decent mapping). If it fails, you do have a picture of where you are, and navigate on wards the old fashioned way. Otherwise the skills you need are beyond what can be taught on here.
What would you do?
As above, it's very difficult, much more so with snow on the ground in a whiteout. Basically, you pay much more attention all the time, if you become unsure, then you can use some nav skills like aspect of the slope, pace/timing etc otherwise you'd usually nav to clear features on the map along your route (attack points) like fork in a stream, corner of a wall, trig point, tarn, whatever, called 'aiming off', because they'll be in the general direction you want to go.
All this is going to be really difficult with a bike.
There's a brilliant book called 'Scotland's Winter Mountains' by Martin Moran which, apart from being a fascinating read, goes into a fair bit of detail about some of the techniques mentioned above.
I'd definitely recommend it. Although a lot of the techniques need to be practiced on the ground before you need to use them in anger.
Cheers fellas.
I am actually familiar with the Hellvelyn ridge line I've rode it a couple of times from Glenridding up onto Matterdale Common then the Dodds etc and down Dollwagon. What sticks in my mind where the 10 foot wide cornices that, had it not been spring, would have been completely hidden from view by lying snow. It was very easy to picture how someone could unknowingly walk/ride out onto one in an attempt to get a better view of Red Tarn. Reading some of the posts it does appears that some take a Devil may care approach, as previously mentioned 3/4 shorts and a thermal layer arent going to cut it if you become immobile and are stuck up there for several hours, take care all and stay well away from the 'edges'.
Ah, the "Edges" never seen a bike on those, an ironing board once, but no bikes!
called 'aiming off', because they'll be in the general direction you want to go.
Err, I don't think you've quite got that right - "aiming off" is nothing to do with the features being in the general direction of your route, it's a technique for actually finding the feature itself in poor visibility
(Briefly, say you're aiming for a wall junction, but you arrive at a wall, no junction because you've missed slightly with following a bearing - the junction is along this wall somewhere, but which way? Left or right? Don't know... so instead you "aim off" - i.e. take a bearing that should bring you to the wall 50-100 metres to the left of the junction you want. When you get to the wall, you know that you follow the wall to the right and you'll come to the junction within 50-100 metres)
I should point out that in snow and ice you'd chose attack points which you knew would be visible, so a small tarn, fork in a stream etc might not be, so you'd have to pick something else. On mountains, attack points might be really sparse, so you have to get creative.
Edlong, I couldn't be arsed explaining into that detail, but yes your right 🙂
Winter hillwalking courses do stuff on counting steps, how far's 100 paces for you? How long, roughly, does it take to ascend 50m - simple stuff that can help avert getting lost in the first place.
Compass bearing for where you want to go, when you don't know where you are, is not a recipe for success, but it's good to establish NSEW.
Seems like nothing beats experience and a cool head - not that I have much of either. I've had a glimpse of white-out conditions in Scotland and just taking a bearing (from the trig point!) was difficult and panicky.
I've often come across a tendency among many walkers (usually whilst out walking, and not on the bike) who like to offer "advice" whether you want it or not
I think this thread proves it's not unique to walkers.
MTBers can be sanctimonious fannies as well.
I cried off a ride in the lakes that had bad news written allover it weatherwise. Those that went didn't talk about it (how it went etc). About a year later one let it slip about them having to be rescued..
Good advice on direction of stream but a few years ago in one race, we coming done from Scarth Gap in the rain and dark and we lost the path. We hit the stream so I took a bearing and that showed us which stream we were on and where we were wrong. But a bloke with a GPS was convinced we were wrong and carried on down towards Fleetwith Pike instead of backtracking up the slope to get the path the feed station at the other end of Buttermere.
"But the GPS says this way......!"
Genuine question by the way, I asked my mate who is an ex sniper (british army) and trained in jungle warfare, his response was it's very difficult. I took that to mean you can't, your forced to sit tight until you can take a bearing?
Like all skills it is learned, there are a variety of techniques and you need to practice. I too would rather rely on map and compass than GPS (I have both).
Having gained summer ML and winter training, and practiced for many a year, I am pretty good at -a) knowing where I am the vast majority of the time b) knowing when to pay attention to route funding and c) finding myself in pretty crappy weather and getting off a hill safely.
Go on a course, get a good book, watch Glenmore Lodges youtube site on nav etc.
From memory there's a section in the Martin Moran book on navigating whilst skiing, similar to biking in that judging distance travelled, is really quite hard. Even with modern GPS units a map is still a very good idea (along with knowing how to read it) as it gives you a feel for the layout of the terrain. If visibility is reduced then you have to try and determine your position at any opportunity - the idea is to reduce the area of uncertainty - then look ahead and try and identify features that you can "tick off" as you pass them. If you don't pass them then you have to relocate and try and figure out where you are.
Having a route card that has basic directions on it can be a help, you don't need to have bearings down to the half degree, the nearest ten degrees will be good enough in most circumstances (I'm fully aware that there are locations where navigating on an exact bearing is desirable), easy to set on the compass and follow. The route card just needs directions like: "Track drops to col, junction take left", nothing fancy but just enough.
All good advice. I've done navigation exercises in hill fog with map & compass and pacing and been amazed at the accuracy that's possible if you take care.
On finding your location when fog or darkness come down... well, an experienced hill man would already have worked out that the weather or light were about to change and would have taken care to be sure of his location. My favourite is to find a good feature like a tarn, fence line or wall and start from there. An altimeter helps, as long as you remembered to calibrate it at the last known spot height, and you can take an angle of slope compass reading to determine roughly where you are on a curving hillside.
So much of mountain safety is about keeping a clear head and thinking things through. Panic causes you to take hasty decisions.
More of it is about having a contingency plan and the humility to drop the original plan and go and do something easier.
I simply wouldn't want to place all my trust in GPS.
Warning ! Compass polarity reversal. As the fog descended on me in unfamiliar snowdonia I reached for a long unused compass - only to be sent in confusing circles because the north/south polarity had reversed. It must have been stored near a magnet or something. Thought I going mad for a while as I wasn't aware this was possible.
Just googled for mountain navigation for runners from Lakes Climber to find that they closed a while back, shame I liked their shop and a great book
On the positive side, it sounds like the guys found their way safely off the hill. Hopefully, the experience will have given them cause to reflect on kit choice and navigation skills. As ever, Matt writes an awful lot of sense about such things. The mountains in winter can be a terrific experience on a bike as Munrobiker points out but it does come with a higher penalty for failure if things go wrong. I still make mistakes when I am out on big days out but always take the time to reflect on them and consider how I could have avoided them in the first place or reduced the chances of them happening.
I remember doing a deep snow ride up Glen Ample on a bitterly cold and cloudy day. Poor gear choice and lack of experience resulted in my hands and feet being in agony with the cold (and subsequent hot aches 8O) while I reached a point where I just wanted to lie at the side of the road on the ride back and go to sleep in the wet snow. Fortunately, I still had the sense to recognise the folly of doing that and had a good chat with myself and got back to the car colder and wiser. Sometimes a good scare is what you need to learn for the next time.
I'll quite happily carry a lot of kit with me even on local rides in winter as having an off and being stuck for several hours in the cold and wet can become consequential very quickly. A survival bag, belay jacket, spare hat, gloves and full waterproofs might seem a bit overkill but knowing how cold I can get just stopping for a drink or a snack, I plan for being stuck out for a night in the hills and pack accordingly. Hopefully, I won't ever have to find out but I'd rather be looking at the right gear than looking for it! 😀
About a year later one let it slip about them having to be rescued..
We are all lost without you to guide us
Out of interest - what would you recommend to take (and where to buy from)? The foil/cover - and/or the small shelter? Where from etc? It'd be good to pack this kit across riders on a ride t'up there.
Don't think anyone's mentioned it yet but for navigation I cannot recommend the following book highly enough: [url= http://www.amazon.co.uk/Mountain-Navigation-Peter-Cliff/dp/1871890551 ]http://www.amazon.co.uk/Mountain-Navigation-Peter-Cliff/dp/1871890551[/url].
+1 on Martin Moran book. Pretty much essential (and suprisingly entertaining) reading and has probably the best summary of how to assess and judge the weather and conditions in a mountain environment that I"ve come across.
Hora:
The foil blanket is more about heat retention in a casualty rather than as a potential shelter. They are about the size of a couple of mars bars and available from any outdoors type shop. single use only really as you can't pack them down again very easily.
You can get group shelters - basically a big sheet of material that you wrap around the group - http://www.needlesports.com/Catalogue/Camping-Equipment/Bivi/Group-Shelters
Another option might be a tarp - http://www.needlesports.com/Catalogue/Camping-Equipment/Bivi/Bivi-Tents
As with anything like this there's a lot of variables as to what to take on any given ride but even in relatively benign conditions you will soon get cold due to sweat and evaporation - even having a spare thermal is worth it as it will be dry though it does take a bit of nerve to strip off on the top of a mountain to put dry clothing on! Also I'd take different kit (read more) if I was in charge of a group rather than a member of a bunch of mates.
In order of increasingly poor conditions and/or seriousness:
first aid kit (no brainer)
foil blanket
sections of foam mat for ground insulation
group shelter
sleeping bag
Running events like the High Peak Marathon mandate taking a two man tent as part of the kit for each group of four.
Don't get a foil/emergency blanket, next to useless on a windy mountain, get an emergency/survival [b]BAG[/b]. One you can get inside and even pull a draw cord, they usually come vacuum packed.
Heatshields bag is better than a blanket, but a blanket can be worn under a waterproof, idealy take both, plus a shelter so that if there's a group of you you can get in to provide body heat.
Traditional bike computer that tracks distance based on wheel size would be useful as well instead of relying on GPS
You also need a torch and spare batteries on that list of must take gear, especially at this time of year.
(on top of obvious tools, some extra layers, buffs, extra snack etc).
I would still say the knowledge of what to do and how to sort yourself is as important as what you carry. Courses, spending time with more experienced folk and building up on the adventure scale progressively are all just as important - and it will give you the judgement over what to take or not to take...
EDIT: the reason I re-posted this that the group in question seemed to be lacking some of the judgement and skills. I actually would not be 'upset' by anyone up a hill, moving quickly with minimal gear - I am when they are heading back up a blooming big hill without clocking the impending darkness, nav challenges and 'what ifs', and who had already demonstrated some ineptitude.
I think Hora's request was for group kit - I'd have things like spare clothing, tools, food, light as personal items, though obviously they can be shared.
I'd be interested to hear what people include in a first aid kit?
Conditions and mind-set
It's a great outing for anyone with the right mind-set in half-decent winter conditions (gorgeous Ben Lawers pics), but "epic" when it goes awry.
Sometimes the mountains reward boldness, sometimes they kick you in the arse. "Mountain sense" is knowing one from the other before it happens and planning an escape.
Also some people thrive on epics and seek them out, though most don't. The presence of a mad grin in a howling white-out is the usual indicator!
The OP clearly thought these guys in Helvellyn had lost control of their situation that day. Hope they were OK.
I'd be interested to hear what people include in a first aid kit?
tick tugger
and all the other usual stuff
I would just like to say thank you for all who are concerned for they're welfare and thank you to the man who gave them directions for the quickest way back, they got home safely after a fantastic day out in the mountains. They were my son and his mate, the other group are just some other bikers they caught up with and chatted to for a bit.
They missed the fork and descended to Thirlmere before checking the map they were carrying and had to hike back up. They are fast, fit, experienced mountain bikers and got back to they're car before dark and were in the pub shortly after. Lesson learned, check map much more often!!! They do carry maps, tools, spares, food, water and a stove, they've been doing this kind of stuff since they were10 and have never caused a reaction like this before, is this the power of Facebook...... oh dear!!!!!
Good for them. Glad to hear that they are ok!
😀
Whatever did or didn't happen to this group, the great thing is that it has started a discussion raising awareness of what's needed when riding in the wilds. Got to be good!
result 🙂
That's cool.
They do carry maps, tools, spares, food, water and a stove
Overequipped then 🙂
The old saying is that if you carry it, you'll end up using it.
Only kidding, sounds like they've banked one in the adventure store. We all need a few tucked away for tall-storying when we're too old to get out any more.
Hear hear Felltop! Discussion of such "incidents" on a public forum can only serve to increase awareness for other riders. Have lived up here for a few years now and been keen on mountains since i can remember. Was always taught by my grandfather to be self reliant in the hills and to never rely on some other poor bugger carrying you off if the shit hits the fan! I personally favour map and compass, but would also add that the Gridpoint app is fantastic and has helped me on a couple of occasions on unfamiliar ground.
https://itunes.apple.com/gb/app/gridpoint-gb/id314445598?mt=8
Now about riding/running/walking in the fells [b]on your own[/b] (I left our solo climbing, my old favourite!)......
For what it's worth, my kit list is usually along the lines of
Map and Compass
First aid kit including antiseptic wipes, gloves, wound dressings, plasters and painkillers
Head torch
Survival bag
Belay jacket
Waterproof walking jacket with helmet compatible hood
Waterproof gloves
Pearl Izumi wind proof over gloves from The Ark! 😀
Hat
Spare buff
Full length waterproof trousers
Gilet
Arm and leg / knee warmers
Fire stick or waterproof matches
Para cord
Zip ties
Gorilla tape (small roll)
Spare food
Water bottle with filter
Charged mobile phone
GPS if the weather looks cloudy on tops
Having someone know where you are going is a good idea as is the ability to sack off a route if the weather turns foul. It's easy to get stuck in a mindset of HAVING to do a route which can sometimes go against better judgement.
I guess it sounds like a lot but I've refined my gear choices over the years and can easily get it all in an Alpkit Gourdon 20.
I tend to ride in waterproof shimano boots and will use ankle gaiters on really wet days. It's a bit niche but I like being warm and dry. Any fool can be cold, wet and miserable! 😆
Sanny
Now about riding/running/walking in the fells on your own (I left our solo climbing, my old favourite!)
Done lots of both. Apparently I'm still here to tell the tales 😛
Used to nip out for a run round the Fairfield Horseshoe after work, sometimes with a solo of Westmorland's Route on Dove Crag thrown in for good measure. Nighttime runs up the local fell were great fun.
In the end, I layered up, smashed down a tuna sarnie and decided the best and safest course was to retrace my route back to my start point.
Probably the least practiced part of mountain safety, knowing when to turn back.
Though there is nothing like a walk off the hill in the snow, dark & a high wind to make one feel more alive. Lesson learned, get up earlier if you're ice climbing in the more remote parts of the Cairngorms.
I'll admit I'm happy to turn back, and regularly do. The reasons vary and include-
- pouring rain and low visibility (this rarely stops me to be honest)
- strong winds (a major one for me as it increases the risk of accidents on technical trails a lot)
- blizzards (once, and I turned back before I even got to it)
I think I've given up on 5 mountains in the last 5 years, though a couple have been this year.
About ten years ago I drove over to the Lakes for a run round the Skiddaw leg of the Bob Graham Round. As I climbed upwards there were several deep snow drifts across the path. By the time I got to the summit of Skiddaw I was in cloud and it was blowing a hoolie. I looked in to the Back o' Skiddaw to see a maelstrom of swirling snow and darkness, thought "sod it", turned round and ran back down and drove back home. Five hours travel for an hour and a half's running.
As this discussion illustrates there is no right and wrong approach to this it depends on a multitude of variables: experience, fitness, terrain, conditions, injury sustained etc.
I would say I have good hill experience from walking and biking both in summer and winter. Whats perfectly reasonable as a plan in July with blue skies aint so good in horizontal rain in November.
I recently had an experience of doing a long route over the Scottish mountains over a number of days with a group of mountain bikers that illustrated a lot of the discussions in this thread, and really how easy it is to get into s@@@ creek despite fitness and well marked trails.
The group were all experienced bikers and pretty fit, BUT, two things nearly caused potential injury.
1) gung ho, push on get there as quick as possible, and dont ride as a group.
2) conditions
As the group got strung out those at the back were left behind, these riders regrouped as a smaller group. Those in the lead pushed on, and a middle group kept up.
It was late October and it became heavy rain, strong winds and cold but not freezing. This drained a lot of the party of energy and crtically heat, but after a long day and through gritted teeth everyone made it to the stop off point just as it got dark. Several members had early hypothermia and were still uncontrollably shivering after a hot bath.
What am I tryng to say? You need to make your own choices but dont under estimate the hills, or you can easily pay the consequences and as said before dont rely on MRT as your phone might be gooshed or the conditions dont allow flight or prevent a search
ps in the same few weeks Im talking about a young fit marine went out for fell run in the Angus Glens and unfortunately died, probably from exposure.
