[Closed] Anyone on Helvellyn today?

Crazyness. Can you imagine their panic 😕

Reports say their Saab has gone so the assumption is they made it back OK.

Is 'are you from the Bogtrotters?' the default question in this situation now?

Silly time of year to be riding high mountain peaks, so easy to ride or walk out onto a cornice.

hear hear dirty dog crazy actions

We are all grown ups. Nice video @postie

Silly time of year to be riding high mountain peaks, so easy to ride or walk out onto a cornice.

Of course helps if you are experienced, know how to navigate, carry the right kit, food, drinks, set off early enough and carry lights!

Ha. Saw this too and thought about sticking it up here but apathy got the better of me. I think most walkers don't realise that their ascent / descent is three times less than what the average Jo on a bike can manage.

Reminds me of the time I was up on High Street in winter conditions a couple of years ago. I was taking a picture of my bike on the summit cairn and eating a flapjack, when a group of walkers all kitted out in crampons and axes appeared from behind some rocks. They looked quite shocked and proceeded to ask me all sorts of questions as to whether I had spiked tyres (I didn't which shocked them even more), knew where I was going etc.

Fantastic day out though:

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I agree there is a bit of 'over protectiveness' in the post, and we all are guilty of over-kittedness and over-conservativeness at times, but equally the chap does make a good point or two:

They didn't have any map, compass lights or any apparent additional thermal wear

Turns out they were part of the same group, but had gone ahead whilst the repair was being made and only realised they were wrong when they got to the shore of Thirlmere.

I think most walkers don't realise that their ascent / descent is three times less than what the average Jo on a bike can manage.

I don't think anyone's saying you shouldn't be prepared in the mountains and have the right navigation skills etc to safely play in them. However I've often come across a tendency among many walkers (usually whilst out walking, and not on the bike) who like to offer "advice" whether you want it or not, and who make lazy judgements about the ability of others.

It's not necessarily a daft thing to do, if you've got the right day for it and have enough kit. I don't ever really bother carrying a compass but usually use a GPS and a map and always have a spare layer. But I would usually do it in 3/4 shorts at most, and look fairly under dressed compared to a hiker as riding is much warmer work. A familiar, well known mountain like Helvellyn shouldn't pose an issue, though I'd not bother.

Sounds like some foolishness on the part of this particular group but it's not inherently a stupid thing to do.

We did Ben Lawers in November in the snow and that was staggeringly good!

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I would usually do it in 3/4 shorts at most

+1

Always pack a pair of thermals (top and bottom), but I've never been cold enough to use them. 3/4 and knee pads are fine for me, even in the ridiculously cold winter we had in 2012. What do other people wear, MTB trousers?!

3/4 and knee pads are fine for me, even in the ridiculously cold winter we had in 2012. What do other people wear, MTB trousers?!

i guess the point is less how cold you are when riding, but how quickly you get cold if it all goes wrong...

Those riders hadn't got much leeway for mistakes or breakdowns so they were well into the incident pit.

IIRC, the path fork is high up on the summit ridge

, therefore two folk had ridden a 600m/2km+ of descent down pretty technical terrain, and not thought to wait for rest of group or check map?

STRAAAAAVVAAAAAA!!!!!

Those riders hadn't got much leeway for mistakes or breakdowns so they were well into the incident pit.

This. Obviously the vast majority of people who take a bit of a chance with clothing and equipment sail on through and just have a laugh about it over their evening pint.

We all call ourselves mountain bikers, but in truth, I don't think that many of us have more than a sprinkling of mountain know-how. I'd include myself in that, as my skills are more than a little rusty.

(Cue lots of indignant posts about carrying compasses and white-out navigation techniques...)

The bit about 3/4 shorts made me think they must know what they were doing TBH.

Cue lots of indignant posts about carrying compasses and white-out navigation techniques...

Smartphone with Google Maps turned to satellite photography mode 😉

Divers are familiar with the concept of the Incident Pit; I wrote an article for STW on this very subject a few years ago. You can "wing it" and everything will be fine but as soon as you use up your reserves you're on the slide. That can mean running out of daylight or energy, a breakdown, bad weather, minor accident, getting lost or having to retrace your route.

Smartphone with Google Maps turned to satellite photography mode

https://www.thebmc.co.uk/smartphone-apps-handle-with-care

The trouble with my bloody phone is I will probably die from hypothermia while waiting for it to get a GPS fix...

Does your Google Maps pre-download detailed satellite images, or do you rely on having a signal on top of the hill?

I had a bit of incident this weekend. Around half way round a route I had never ridden before in the Peaks my chain snapped. Unfortunately, my fingers were just too cold and I couldn't fix it on the spot. Even though it was only around midday, I was on my own, unsure what the rest of route had in store (other than from the map) and increasingly cold from the snow and the aborted attempt at fixing the chain.

In the end, I layered up, smashed down a tuna sarnie and decided the best and safest course was to retrace my route back to my start point.

Annoying more than anything and unlikely to cause me any real issues. But still, these things have a habit of escalating.

Does your Google Maps pre-download detailed satellite images, or do you rely on having a signal on top of the hill?

mine has viewranger with 1:25K OS maps of where ever I'm likely to be, preloaded. As long as there is a view of the sky and battery life it'll be fine.

I've often come across a tendency among many walkers (usually whilst out walking, and not on the bike) who like to offer "advice" whether you want it or not, and who make lazy judgements about the ability of others.

As long as there is a view of the sky and battery life it'll be fine.

An increaseing number of MRT call outs are to people lost after batteries died on GPS's or they developed a fault.

I'm a bit of the old school and still rely on map and compass.

I was thinking initially how silly of them, until I remembered the day I was going with a mate to do some simple ice climbing on the E face. At the hole-in-the wall, we were in a whiteout but I said "no fear, I know Helvellyn like the back of my hand."

We spent the next 15 mins walking downhill towards the mines instead of uphill to Red Tarn! 😳

Cast not the first stone!!!!

I like the two gullies on the e face as they normally end in a cornice close to the summit shelter. Peoples' faces when you pop though is quite a picture!! Still scary thought if you cycled over the edge.

Does anyone know if they are def safe?

Garmin with freshly charged AA's (or new Duracells) will work for 3 days easily. that's why I take a Garmin that takes AA's. The phone each is merely an emergency backup, where GSM may work, but assume data won't (so have cached gmaps).
Map is in the backpack with the intention of never using it.

As I already said, I do not have a problem with anyone taking an adventure.
However, it does seem that this party (and increasingly more folk) are finding themselves in places with very narrow margins of error.
We also used to speak of incident pit/spiral/three lemons on the risk fruit machine gamble - and increasingly I see people who are happy to be on two lemons of three...
I think that modern kit (in all outdoor sports) narrows the gap between adventure and misadventure. The line between OK and accident is thinner, and more sudden.
I also think that there is a growth in sunny pics, massive adventures, shiny video's etc online, that flatten terrain/waves/distances/skills required/judgement being exercised. People head off into the hills, lacking the apprenticeship that they may have had in the past that would halt the incident pit spiral, or cause people to bail at two lemons....

Let's get out there folks, but please can we not rely on the big whirly bird and MRT as our fall back plan...when a headtorch, map & compass and an extra layer would avoid it.

I applaud sensible risk taking but feel that people are pushing the boundaries too far and becoming over reliant on technology (and rescue services 🙁 ). Off piste skiing is the worst offender IMO.

I have done a few 48 hr endurance events which have min kit lists. All fine and dandy when things are going well, but nowhere near sufficient if you have an accident and are sweaty, then cooling rapidly while seeking help. I was guilty there too because I ran (naturally) with the min kit required to pass the test but was very conscious that I would be in trouble if I had an accident in the middle of the night. Second lesson learned was that GPS can and do go wrong. I only had map and compass but was amazed at how those relying on GPS kept making navigational errors.

I will ride where I know well without a map. And if the conditions are bad, then a wrong turn can happen if I know it or not. And 30 seconds of wrong turn gets you a long way off course. I imagine someone in the group had a map and if not the map was in their head.

As had been said, you can get off a mountain pretty quickly on a bike so even if you are in the wrong place you get out of danger. From the wrong valley, you can usually get to the right valley on the roads. Unless you have had a nasty accident in which case you'd be struggling to get off the mountain even with a map and compass.

The guy was concerned though, so that's nice and the world is a better place for people looking out for each other.

Oh yes, I've had many experiences of those, usually middle aged gents trying to impress their lady friends of their great mountain prowess. Best thing is to just take the pis,

Yup I usually tell them that I don't need a map cos I'm following the group in front 🙂

Yup I usually tell them that I don't need a map cos I'm following the group in front

Whats the best (not Winter) Helvellyn loop from Grasmere / Rydal? (or even an out & back)

The two lads who went all the way down to Thirlmere by mistake, understood - done similar. Turning round and hiking back up Birk Side to the top of Helvellyn, nae map, freezing, poor visibility? Hell no.
Aside from the glorious stupidity of it, that would be a gruelling hour of pushing up 700m vert ascent, and their mates are hardly stood there up top waiting, freezing their fruits off.

Surely they gave it a 10 min foray, sacked it off and turned round to the alehouse? Hope they are all OK whatever happened.

The fork in the path on the ridge is slightly confusing as the path you want for Dollywaggon goes *uphill*. If you've never been there before or don't notice or are thinking "descent" then you wouldn't necessarily take it.

The path up from Dunmail Raise wouldn't be pleasant carrying a bike - it's not exactly easy going - easier than heading back up top though. But if you don't know the district then you might want to get back to your mates.

Minor mistakes mounting up ...

Be polite with any queries / concerns expressed by others, they may be the ones that you rely on to rescue you.

Scuff come up and I will show you 🙂

I'm always aggressively polite toward walkers. You never know when we might need them in an apocalyptic war against, oh I don't know, OFF ROAD SEGWAYS. Also, I'm sure the concern was genuine which is always something to be respected.

Helvellyn is one of my '12 months / 12 mountains' 2015 resolution thingies, so on the look out for a GPX file I can download and robotically follow, anyone?

Send me an email and I can sort you out with one.

Thanks Chakaping.

Oh, YGM

What's all this GPS nonsense? Do people really head out into the mountains in winter using GPS as their only source of navigation? Scary.

I was joking. I thought the 'robotically follow' would be an indication of sarcasm....

If I don't know the area I take an OS map out, if I do, I don't.

I'd be interested to know how you go about finding your current location in poor visibility ie heavy cloud moves in, you have no reference points to go off, you dont have GPS and only an OS map and compass.

Genuine question by the way, I asked my mate who is an ex sniper (british army) and trained in jungle warfare, his response was it's very difficult. I took that to mean you can't, your forced to sit tight until you can take a bearing?

What would you do?

He's right it is very difficult in poor visibility, and a GPS is a great help, but not as much as you might wish for if you're relying on it to guide you down the appropriate gully off a mountain ridge.

In answer to your question, the idea is that you shouldn't really be using a map to find your location in poor visibility, you should already know it.

To all those on here who think it's OK to rely on a technology to make up for lake of equipment or skill, it's time to wake up!

GPS's are great tools, but they can and do fail. I've had batteries fail well before they should, supposedly waterproof GPS fill up with water (quite comical at the time, on a night time search - fortunately I knew the area well, & had map & compass), also a broken screen. A light of some sort is also kind of handy. I once went on a rescue for a mountain biker who was stuck on the high fells after dark after a mechanical issue. Said he didn't need to carry a torch as he could move much faster than a walker...... Best to remember that if your bike lets you down you really are just a walker. Oh, if you get injured you really need the same kit that a walker would be expected to carry.

Mountain bikes are great in wild places, but take responsibility for yourself and your actions. Rant over!!

Felltop - he speaks da troof 8)

Finding your location using an OS map and compass - the idea is that you keep track of where you are at all times, so hopefully this does not occur..... In reality it does happen, especially on a bike when it can be difficult to judge distance travelled. This is where GPS CAN be really useful (with decent mapping). If it fails, you do have a picture of where you are, and navigate on wards the old fashioned way. Otherwise the skills you need are beyond what can be taught on here.

What would you do?

There's a brilliant book called 'Scotland's Winter Mountains' by Martin Moran which, apart from being a fascinating read, goes into a fair bit of detail about some of the techniques mentioned above.

I'd definitely recommend it. Although a lot of the techniques need to be practiced on the ground before you need to use them in anger.

Cheers fellas.

I am actually familiar with the Hellvelyn ridge line I've rode it a couple of times from Glenridding up onto Matterdale Common then the Dodds etc and down Dollwagon. What sticks in my mind where the 10 foot wide cornices that, had it not been spring, would have been completely hidden from view by lying snow. It was very easy to picture how someone could unknowingly walk/ride out onto one in an attempt to get a better view of Red Tarn. Reading some of the posts it does appears that some take a Devil may care approach, as previously mentioned 3/4 shorts and a thermal layer arent going to cut it if you become immobile and are stuck up there for several hours, take care all and stay well away from the 'edges'.

Ah, the "Edges" never seen a bike on those, an ironing board once, but no bikes!

called 'aiming off', because they'll be in the general direction you want to go.

Err, I don't think you've quite got that right - "aiming off" is nothing to do with the features being in the general direction of your route, it's a technique for actually finding the feature itself in poor visibility

(Briefly, say you're aiming for a wall junction, but you arrive at a wall, no junction because you've missed slightly with following a bearing - the junction is along this wall somewhere, but which way? Left or right? Don't know... so instead you "aim off" - i.e. take a bearing that should bring you to the wall 50-100 metres to the left of the junction you want. When you get to the wall, you know that you follow the wall to the right and you'll come to the junction within 50-100 metres)

I should point out that in snow and ice you'd chose attack points which you knew would be visible, so a small tarn, fork in a stream etc might not be, so you'd have to pick something else. On mountains, attack points might be really sparse, so you have to get creative.

Edlong, I couldn't be arsed explaining into that detail, but yes your right 🙂

Winter hillwalking courses do stuff on counting steps, how far's 100 paces for you? How long, roughly, does it take to ascend 50m - simple stuff that can help avert getting lost in the first place.
Compass bearing for where you want to go, when you don't know where you are, is not a recipe for success, but it's good to establish NSEW.

Seems like nothing beats experience and a cool head - not that I have much of either. I've had a glimpse of white-out conditions in Scotland and just taking a bearing (from the trig point!) was difficult and panicky.

I've often come across a tendency among many walkers (usually whilst out walking, and not on the bike) who like to offer "advice" whether you want it or not

I think this thread proves it's not unique to walkers.

MTBers can be sanctimonious fannies as well.

I cried off a ride in the lakes that had bad news written allover it weatherwise. Those that went didn't talk about it (how it went etc). About a year later one let it slip about them having to be rescued..

Good advice on direction of stream but a few years ago in one race, we coming done from Scarth Gap in the rain and dark and we lost the path. We hit the stream so I took a bearing and that showed us which stream we were on and where we were wrong. But a bloke with a GPS was convinced we were wrong and carried on down towards Fleetwith Pike instead of backtracking up the slope to get the path the feed station at the other end of Buttermere.

"But the GPS says this way......!"

Genuine question by the way, I asked my mate who is an ex sniper (british army) and trained in jungle warfare, his response was it's very difficult. I took that to mean you can't, your forced to sit tight until you can take a bearing?

Having gained summer ML and winter training, and practiced for many a year, I am pretty good at -a) knowing where I am the vast majority of the time b) knowing when to pay attention to route funding and c) finding myself in pretty crappy weather and getting off a hill safely.

Go on a course, get a good book, watch Glenmore Lodges youtube site on nav etc.

From memory there's a section in the Martin Moran book on navigating whilst skiing, similar to biking in that judging distance travelled, is really quite hard. Even with modern GPS units a map is still a very good idea (along with knowing how to read it) as it gives you a feel for the layout of the terrain. If visibility is reduced then you have to try and determine your position at any opportunity - the idea is to reduce the area of uncertainty - then look ahead and try and identify features that you can "tick off" as you pass them. If you don't pass them then you have to relocate and try and figure out where you are.

Having a route card that has basic directions on it can be a help, you don't need to have bearings down to the half degree, the nearest ten degrees will be good enough in most circumstances (I'm fully aware that there are locations where navigating on an exact bearing is desirable), easy to set on the compass and follow. The route card just needs directions like: "Track drops to col, junction take left", nothing fancy but just enough.

All good advice. I've done navigation exercises in hill fog with map & compass and pacing and been amazed at the accuracy that's possible if you take care.

On finding your location when fog or darkness come down... well, an experienced hill man would already have worked out that the weather or light were about to change and would have taken care to be sure of his location. My favourite is to find a good feature like a tarn, fence line or wall and start from there. An altimeter helps, as long as you remembered to calibrate it at the last known spot height, and you can take an angle of slope compass reading to determine roughly where you are on a curving hillside.

So much of mountain safety is about keeping a clear head and thinking things through. Panic causes you to take hasty decisions.

More of it is about having a contingency plan and the humility to drop the original plan and go and do something easier.

I simply wouldn't want to place all my trust in GPS.

Warning ! Compass polarity reversal. As the fog descended on me in unfamiliar snowdonia I reached for a long unused compass - only to be sent in confusing circles because the north/south polarity had reversed. It must have been stored near a magnet or something. Thought I going mad for a while as I wasn't aware this was possible.

Just googled for mountain navigation for runners from Lakes Climber to find that they closed a while back, shame I liked their shop and a great book

On the positive side, it sounds like the guys found their way safely off the hill. Hopefully, the experience will have given them cause to reflect on kit choice and navigation skills. As ever, Matt writes an awful lot of sense about such things. The mountains in winter can be a terrific experience on a bike as Munrobiker points out but it does come with a higher penalty for failure if things go wrong. I still make mistakes when I am out on big days out but always take the time to reflect on them and consider how I could have avoided them in the first place or reduced the chances of them happening.

I remember doing a deep snow ride up Glen Ample on a bitterly cold and cloudy day. Poor gear choice and lack of experience resulted in my hands and feet being in agony with the cold (and subsequent hot aches 8O) while I reached a point where I just wanted to lie at the side of the road on the ride back and go to sleep in the wet snow. Fortunately, I still had the sense to recognise the folly of doing that and had a good chat with myself and got back to the car colder and wiser. Sometimes a good scare is what you need to learn for the next time.

I'll quite happily carry a lot of kit with me even on local rides in winter as having an off and being stuck for several hours in the cold and wet can become consequential very quickly. A survival bag, belay jacket, spare hat, gloves and full waterproofs might seem a bit overkill but knowing how cold I can get just stopping for a drink or a snack, I plan for being stuck out for a night in the hills and pack accordingly. Hopefully, I won't ever have to find out but I'd rather be looking at the right gear than looking for it! 😀

About a year later one let it slip about them having to be rescued..

Out of interest - what would you recommend to take (and where to buy from)? The foil/cover - and/or the small shelter? Where from etc? It'd be good to pack this kit across riders on a ride t'up there.

Don't think anyone's mentioned it yet but for navigation I cannot recommend the following book highly enough: [url= http://www.amazon.co.uk/Mountain-Navigation-Peter-Cliff/dp/1871890551 ]http://www.amazon.co.uk/Mountain-Navigation-Peter-Cliff/dp/1871890551[/url].

+1 on Martin Moran book. Pretty much essential (and suprisingly entertaining) reading and has probably the best summary of how to assess and judge the weather and conditions in a mountain environment that I"ve come across.

Hora:

The foil blanket is more about heat retention in a casualty rather than as a potential shelter. They are about the size of a couple of mars bars and available from any outdoors type shop. single use only really as you can't pack them down again very easily.

You can get group shelters - basically a big sheet of material that you wrap around the group - http://www.needlesports.com/Catalogue/Camping-Equipment/Bivi/Group-Shelters

Another option might be a tarp - http://www.needlesports.com/Catalogue/Camping-Equipment/Bivi/Bivi-Tents

As with anything like this there's a lot of variables as to what to take on any given ride but even in relatively benign conditions you will soon get cold due to sweat and evaporation - even having a spare thermal is worth it as it will be dry though it does take a bit of nerve to strip off on the top of a mountain to put dry clothing on! Also I'd take different kit (read more) if I was in charge of a group rather than a member of a bunch of mates.

In order of increasingly poor conditions and/or seriousness:

first aid kit (no brainer)
foil blanket
sections of foam mat for ground insulation
group shelter
sleeping bag

Running events like the High Peak Marathon mandate taking a two man tent as part of the kit for each group of four.

Don't get a foil/emergency blanket, next to useless on a windy mountain, get an emergency/survival [b]BAG[/b]. One you can get inside and even pull a draw cord, they usually come vacuum packed.

Heatshields bag is better than a blanket, but a blanket can be worn under a waterproof, idealy take both, plus a shelter so that if there's a group of you you can get in to provide body heat.

Traditional bike computer that tracks distance based on wheel size would be useful as well instead of relying on GPS

You also need a torch and spare batteries on that list of must take gear, especially at this time of year.
(on top of obvious tools, some extra layers, buffs, extra snack etc).

I would still say the knowledge of what to do and how to sort yourself is as important as what you carry. Courses, spending time with more experienced folk and building up on the adventure scale progressively are all just as important - and it will give you the judgement over what to take or not to take...

EDIT: the reason I re-posted this that the group in question seemed to be lacking some of the judgement and skills. I actually would not be 'upset' by anyone up a hill, moving quickly with minimal gear - I am when they are heading back up a blooming big hill without clocking the impending darkness, nav challenges and 'what ifs', and who had already demonstrated some ineptitude.

I think Hora's request was for group kit - I'd have things like spare clothing, tools, food, light as personal items, though obviously they can be shared.

I'd be interested to hear what people include in a first aid kit?

Conditions and mind-set

It's a great outing for anyone with the right mind-set in half-decent winter conditions (gorgeous Ben Lawers pics), but "epic" when it goes awry.

Sometimes the mountains reward boldness, sometimes they kick you in the arse. "Mountain sense" is knowing one from the other before it happens and planning an escape.

Also some people thrive on epics and seek them out, though most don't. The presence of a mad grin in a howling white-out is the usual indicator!

The OP clearly thought these guys in Helvellyn had lost control of their situation that day. Hope they were OK.

I'd be interested to hear what people include in a first aid kit?

I would just like to say thank you for all who are concerned for they're welfare and thank you to the man who gave them directions for the quickest way back, they got home safely after a fantastic day out in the mountains. They were my son and his mate, the other group are just some other bikers they caught up with and chatted to for a bit.
They missed the fork and descended to Thirlmere before checking the map they were carrying and had to hike back up. They are fast, fit, experienced mountain bikers and got back to they're car before dark and were in the pub shortly after. Lesson learned, check map much more often!!! They do carry maps, tools, spares, food, water and a stove, they've been doing this kind of stuff since they were10 and have never caused a reaction like this before, is this the power of Facebook...... oh dear!!!!!

Good for them. Glad to hear that they are ok!

😀

Whatever did or didn't happen to this group, the great thing is that it has started a discussion raising awareness of what's needed when riding in the wilds. Got to be good!