[Closed] Any design lawyers on the forum? AnaNichoola & Wiggle top uncanny similarities.

Is there a non Facebook link?

As an example....

Ana[img] [/img]
Ana
[img] [/img]

DHB/Wiggle[img] [/img]

What does Ana have to say?

I met her at Big Bike Bash and would be telling Wiggle they are losing a customer if this is a rip off of her designs.

[quote=peteimpreza ]What does Ana have to say?

18months ago @wiggle bike shop came to my design studio/office and we spent a couple of hours looking at my designs with a view to buy. A year later we talked about a collaboration. The talks went quiet and they brought out their own version. Angry? Yes! Heartbroken? More than I knew was possible! Powerful? Nope 🙁

That's enough for me.

Email to Wiggle on its way.

No more business from us.

Cut, fabric and fastenings all look different to me. Apart from the stars I see no real similarity.

I was going to say that, based on the FB link, the Wiggle design although no doubt inspired by Ana doesn't look [i]that[/i] similar bar the fact they're both ladies tops with stars on.

Then I saw scotroute's post with the other top and it's mega obvious the wiggle one is just a blatant mash-up of the two designs. Poor show from whoever at Wiggle is responsible. Maybe worth emailing someone high up? I doubt they would be happy about the situation.

Stars have been around for ever, they don't belong to her.

the DHB one looks nicer, I'm sorry, but there's nothing wholly unique about her jersey, bad form from DHB/Wiggle, quite possibly, but cycling jerseys, shorts, etc haven't really changed much in an age.

quick look on ebay shows this:

[img] [/img]

Am I missing something here? Is it just the stars design they've "ripped off"?

They both have two holes for your arms, coincidence- I think not!

to be fair to DHB, there is still a designer involved, you can show me as many jerseys as you like, I couldn't rip one off, as I wouldn't know where to start.

edit:

Some more starts and stripes, there's a conspiracy at work, wiggle have ripped off America

[img] [/img]

Happens all the time in all facets of design. [i]Inspired by[/i] is the usual phrase.

Still, i'm never buying anything with stars on it again. Or sleeves or a zip for that matter.

Speaking as a lady who buys the odd ladies top, I'd say that the differently sized stars are an AnaNichoola design style. Much classier than the examples of stars above (without wishing to cast nasturtiums on boys' taste).

The 'we'd like to work with you' then bringing out 'coincidentally' similar designs happens all too often to small independent designers. It's rubbish when a big successful company that could give a hand up without it knocking any skin off their nose instead gives a great big shove down.

Yes, unfortunately it happens all the time - but fashion is pretty much all about bigger companies jumping on trends invented by smaller companies. They'd just say they were inspired by the designs.

Legally not a chance, morally very questionable.
Anna probably doesn't have design rights on a top with stars on and certainly not copyright. Would be a different case if they had used her logo.

[url= http://www.out-law.com/page-7088 ]http://www.out-law.com/page-7088[/url]

Speaking as a lady who buys the odd ladies top, I'd say that the differently sized stars are an AnaNichoola design style. Much classier than the examples of stars above (without wishing to cast nasturtiums on boys' taste).

I saw a girl with differently sized stars on her [i]face[/i]. I dont think it was anything to do with Ananichoola, or with being classy.

[quote=Clover ]Speaking as a lady who buys the odd ladies top, I'd say that the differently sized stars are an AnaNichoola design style.

Well if the sizing and spacing of the stars is the unique design feature, then the dhb one isn't a rip off of that at all (far more boring looking). There might well be some "inspiration" there, but then since those tops were already on sale, Wiggle wouldn't have needed to contact her at all in order to get their inspiration.

It's also a bit confusing as Anna doesn't appear to have any connection with AnaNichoola any more anyway
http://www.bikebiz.com/news/read/anna-glowinski-quits-ananichoola/016316

What a bunch of ****s
That's a blatent rip off.

It's looks like they took both tops to a cheap supplier and said make us one like this but not like this ...wink wink...
But to be in talks with the original designer a little while before stinks a bit

Stars and Stripes have been done before. The only unique thing I can see is the cutaway colar on one of the tops.

It does seem she's been using that spaced out different sized stars for a good while, enough for it to become characteristic of her designs.

I would really hope that the fact they had recently been and met with her and discussed licencing her designs strengthened her case a lot!

18months ago @wiggle bike shop came to my design studio/office and we spent a couple of hours looking at my designs with a view to buy. A year later we talked about a collaboration. The talks went quiet and they brought out their own version. Angry? Yes! Heartbroken? More than I knew was possible! Powerful? Nope

Don't know what happened here, but if you sell ideas (as I do as a management consultant) then you don't tell customers what the ideas are until they have committed to paying for them. Or if you do then you accept the risk that you may not get paid.

Doesn't clothing design work like this?

I thought Glowinski had walked away from nichoola to do other things?

Edit: just read aracers post, so either she's whingeing because she walked & now misses the money or she's secretly still involved, either way there's something fishy going on

[quote=rOcKeTdOg ]I thought Glowinski had walked away from nichoola to do other things?
She has, but the conversation she had with Wiggle was 18 months ago, i.e. before they launched their new range and before she left ananichoola so it was about [i]her[/i] designs.

I'm a bit on the fence on this one. I can definitely see the influence of her designs in the DHB range but you only have to look around at the outdoor market in general and you'll see that colours and styles have a habit of "developing" simultaneously across brands. For instance, three years ago, lime green wasn't a massively popular colour. In 2014 it's everywhere - on clothing, bikes, shoes, even phones. I believe orange (mostly with black) is making a claim on 2015.

Doesn't clothing design work like this?

Trouble with fashion is it's all surface. All you need to copy a design is a picture of it - there's no manufacturing techniques or hidden technology the way there is if you try to copy an iPhone or bicycle. So it's very, very easy to copy existing designs - which is why catwalk ideas appear on the high street a few months later.

Well, this doesn't look good for Wiggle. Very cheeky indeed.

I thought Glowinski had walked away from nichoola to do other things?

Edit: just read aracers post, so either she's whingeing because she walked & now misses the money or she's secretly still involved, either way there's something fishy going on

Perhaps she was approached as an independent designer Sherlock?

Don't know what happened here, but if you sell ideas (as I do as a management consultant) then you don't tell customers what the ideas are until they have committed to paying for them. Or if you do then you accept the risk that you may not get paid.

Doesn't clothing design work like this?

Good point, any artists or designers reading this better go and burn their portfolios quick!

I'm struggling to see anything to get upset about here. One bike top looks much the same as any other, and this one has stars on it, which are hardly unique or original. If anything the dhb one looks like it's inspired by the american flag to me.

Kind of struggling to see the design rip off unless it's the fact that there are stars on both Jerseys which is not even a pattern feature that is unique to those two.

Wiggle one has a geometric pattern, the Ana Nicoola one has a random pattern. Colours are different too.

Add in the lower horizontal stripes and day glow piping ( which seems to be DHBs new signature style) and there is more than enough difference to show no plagiarism occurred.

You might be able possibly to prove influence (which isn't illegal...in fact all designers do this) but plagiarism or copying is a completely different thing and this is certainly not a case of copying.

.

Well, this doesn't look good for Wiggle. Very cheeky indeed.

I thought Glowinski had walked away from nichoola to do other things?

Edit: just read aracers post, so either she's whingeing because she walked & now misses the money or she's secretly still involved, either way there's something fishy going on

Perhaps she was approached as an independent designer Sherlock?

an independent designer for a design she already claims to have designed? 😕

Stick my Moobs in either of them and the stars are going to change shape, and neither would fit over my belly so I definitely see some conspiracy going on here.... against me

Looks a bit of a non-story to me.
So, if a "designer" comes up with the idea of a jersey with stars on it, which let's face it, any five year old could have thought of, then no other jersey manufacturer is ever allowed to sell a jersey with stars on it.
Is that how it works?

Does seem like they've been a bit underhand about it all but that's the bike biz I guess, just look at superstar

https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/intellectual-property-office

Kind of struggling to see the design rip off unless it's the fact that there are stars on both Jerseys which is not even a pattern feature that is unique to those two.

If she was talking to Wiggle about a new project then that would involve a new design for wiggle with her design ideas in in and her name on it. Of course the two tops pictured have differences because one is an existing product and another is a new one produced by Wiggle. The question is not how similar the two tops are but how similar the new top is to the one that was being discussed.

That said I doubt theres anything more valuable that can be done other than call shenanigans on the whole thing. What persists is people who are capable of having ideas remain capable of having ideas and people who are disappointments remain disappointments.

I had something similar happen to me when I was an engineering student. I had discussions with a major outdoor equipment supplier about setting up some working relationship with the uni whereby they could provide ideas/support for student projects and they could then use the university lab facilities for testing. All was good, I was to create a product design for my final year project, they wholeheartedly agreed to get a prototype manufactured and sent to me to test in the uni facilities, and would work through iterations to get the final design right. The whole thing was seen as an introductory step in establishing a working relationship between the uni and the company with the greater goal for them of getting to use expensive facilities and brain power for free. Also, as a bit of an apprenticeship for myself with the aim of a job at the end of it.
I sent them my design to get the prototype made and then...nothing. I couldn't get hold of them, they didn't reply to messages left. My department were on my back to just change the scope of my project as time was running out to do all the testing I'd planned and in the end I had to make do with what I had which was enough to pass. I graduated and moved on with life.
About a year later I'm in a friend's house and meet his new flatmate for the first time. I ask what he does - he tells me he's a product designer...for the company in question! The bloody job I'd been working towards! I tell him my story and he goes a bit pale. He tells me his boss (the guy I'd been dealing with), had given him some designs (my designs!) to tweak so they could be put into production, which he'd just completed and the product was due to be launched imminently. He apologised profusely and offered to get me some of the finished product but as he was fairly new to the company he didn't want to cause too much of a stir. I was young, perhaps naive, and didn't take it any further. I'm not sure what else I could have done - they'd tweaked the design sufficiently that I couldn't prove that it was based on my original idea and not an amalgamation of many others. The product is still on the market to this day and has had quite a few good reviews so that warms my cockles and I think they've recently launched a more expensive, lighter, performance version closer to my original design so it will be interesting to see how it goes...

Name names!

Storm in a tea cup. They both have stars on. Neither has a copyright on stars. Next!

I once had a girlfriend doing a product design course. I gave her the idea of a top from a cycling bottle on a normal bottle of water and marketing it as "sporty". So, does that mean every soft drinks manufacturer in the world ripped me off?

First wiggle has customers card's/accounts emptied. Not one off either.

Its too much of a councidence designwise. What else did AG show them that could pop up next?

Sorry Im out wiggle. I'd rather deal with merlin, winstanley or bike-discount.

Ive only met AG once- bout 10yrs ago mind, lovely girl and her brothers a good bloke too.

Binners will tell you about presenting ideas and then seeing them pinched - taken to somewhere else to be produced.

OnzaDog....Did you mention that idea in a meeting with a drinks supplier with a view to them paying you for your idea? If so yes, but if not totally irrelevant to this discussion!

Did you mention that idea in a meeting with a drinks supplier with a view to them paying you for your idea?

This is the point to me, Its not like they came up with a star design that just happened to be 'a bit similar' is it, they approached her to work for them and then clearly copied a design feature that had become characteristic of her work.

the 'nobody owns stars' seems a bit like 'nobody owns stripes', but Adidas have successfully defended their three stripe design against people using two or four stripes, because of the way they were used being a characteristic feature amounting to passing off.

[quote=Wiggle said on their Facebook page]

Anna Glowinski made us aware by email at 23:12 on Friday that she believes Wiggle has plagiarised a design from her range of women's cycling clothing she showed us in 2013.
The Wiggle colleague Anna e-mailed was on annual leave, though we did pick it up and respond to her at 17:32 on Saturday.
We confirmed that we are taking her claim very seriously and will be investigating fully on Monday. In the meantime Anna had shared her claim and frustration on Social Media. We at Wiggle would like to make it clear that we work to the highest ethical standards. If a designer has indeed used Anna's designs and passed them off as their own then we will be taking full disciplinary action and ensuring that Anna benefits from the design royalties. We too would be upset, if indeed this is what has happened. We will provide an update at 17:00 on Monday. The Wiggle Team.

[quote=ninfan ]This is the point to me, Its not like they came up with a star design that just happened to be 'a bit similar' is it, they approached her to work for them and then clearly copied a design feature that had become characteristic of her work.

Except they haven't have they - because the only actual similarity is having stars. What appears to be the unique design feature of hers is the "random" pattern of differently sized stars and the dhb top doesn't have that.

Of course we don't know what discussions she had, and if she did indeed provide Wiggle with the design they're using or something very similar then there is a problem, but the fact she has tops with stars on doesn't really prove anything. They would hardly have needed to bother discussing things with her just to make a top with stars on.

Boo hoo. Designer 'designs' a top with stars on. Jesus Christ, if that's what designers get paid for (or not in this case) I'm in the wrong job!

Viviene Westwood also did the stars design, not sure where the idea for that came from or who did it first.

Scotjohn, is this a game where we have to guess what the product is?

I'll go for [url= http://www.deltagroundanchors.co.uk/ ]Delta ground anchors[/url].
Am I warm?

Years ago, @pple were in talks with the company about 'licensing' the hypertext product we had, for sale in retail market. All went quiet, then out came HyperCard, bundled with every Macintosh... 🙁

Happens all the time, not just in fashion..

Good to see they appear to be doing the right thing.

Just because something might not be legally wrong, doesn't make it right.

I suppose it must be a bit upsetting when you think that being able to colour between the lines makes you a "designer", only to have your bubble burst when you realise you are not the only person to think of printing stars on a cycling jersey.

Are people seriously going to boycott Wiggle over this?
What's the alternative?
Wiggle had someone pitch a rather unimaginative design to them and they didn't take it up.
Now they can then never sell a jersey that's got stars on it, in any shape, size or pattern, because they will get accused of copying it.
Is that how it works?

Is that how it works?

[img] [/img]

Ah, the classic "I'm too dull to understand the question, it's easier to accuse someone of trolling than try to answer it" STW response.

So, how different would Wiggles stars have to be to avoid accusations of plagiarism, or is really no stars ever, whatever the size or shape?

No. I'm going with troll. But you can try to convince me its the wrong choice.

This is pretty offensive and it shows either a lack of respect or understanding for design:

when you think that being able to colour between the lines makes you a "designer"

if a "designer" comes up with the idea of a jersey with stars on it, which let's face it, any five year old could have thought of

A bit of both I suppose. A lack of respect caused by a lack of understanding.
As I see it, designing a shirt with stars on is closer to a children's art class than it is to, say, a proper designer like Alex Issigonis designing a transverse engine front wheel drive car.
Explain to me where I've gone wrong.

Wouldn't you say that Alex Issigonis was more engineer than designer?

Really?

They're both designers, just different kinds of designers (and I'd say someone like Alex whatshisface is more a engineer (Edit: like CFH said)). You can argue all you want about that, and get your knickers in a twist that fashion "designers" aren't worthy of the label, but that's the label applied to their profession.

Where do you feel on graphic designers? Web designers? They don't really come up with a tangible product, surely that's even worse?

Explain to me where I've gone wrong.

But I'm on the fence over this one generally, I agree that stars on a jersey / t-shirt etc is hard to claim a right to and design ideas evolve naturally and similarities crop up all the time, designers often use similar sources for influence. It's the link that's been suggested between the 2 companies that's more the point and that's for them to work out.

Does AnaNichoola even exist anymore, their website doesn't work for me?

Her stars jersey design was on the internet over a year ago:

[img] [/img]

From Facebook:

Hi friends of Wiggle.
As promised, following our internal investigation here is our statement regarding Anna Glowinski.
At Wiggle we pride ourselves on our integrity, fairness and transparency. Therefore we have taken the claim made by Anna Glowinski (through Facebook on Friday 24th October 2014) that we have plagiarised one of her designs for our new dhb ‘Superstar’ Jersey very seriously.
After conducting a detailed and thorough internal investigation we have concluded that no plagiarism has occurred and that no designer employed by us (directly or indirectly) has broken any of our policies or, more importantly, contravened our values.
We categorically do not participate in or condone plagiarism under any circumstances. This is a zero tolerance policy for us. Our review gives us full confidence in our internal processes and the integrity of our staff in ensuring that this could not happen. We thank our colleagues for their openness and support in resolving this issue in a timely manner.
As this story is in the public domain, for our customers’ information and on behalf of our hard working colleagues that have been affected by this story, we layout our key findings below:
• On 17/1/2013, Anna Glowinski met with members of our Cycle Clothing Buying team at the London Bicycle Show at Excel.
• On 24/1/2013, Anna Glowinski sent a proposal to our Cycle Clothing Buying team regarding the possibility of her designing an exclusive collection for Wiggle.
• On 12/7/2013 our Cycle Clothing Buying team met with Anna to discuss this potential collaboration.
• On 7/8/2013, having reviewed Anna’s proposal, our Cycle Clothing Buying team emailed Anna, politely declining to range the product and sharing our feedback with her.
• On 21/7/2014, following her resignation from AnaNichoola, Anna Glowinski contacted our Cycle Clothing Buying team again, enquiring if there was the possibility of her working for Wiggle. We considered this kind offer carefully, but again decided to decline this proposal. No designs or products were discussed in these subsequent communications.
• It is important to highlight that our Cycle Clothing Buying team (based in Portsmouth) work independently from our dhb Design Team (based in London). There has never until this investigation been a conversation between these two teams at Wiggle regarding Anna Glowinski or AnaNichoola.
• Therefore it is unsurprising that in parallel (and unrelated to) the conversations and meetings between Anna and our Cycle Clothing Buying Team, our London based dhb Design team were independently working on our Autumn/Winter 2014 range, including our ‘Superstar’ Jersey. We register the intellectual property of all of our designs and to do this must save all of the ‘inspiration materials’ and initial ‘draft designs’. We can confirm with confidence by reviewing this audit trail, that the dhb Design team had no knowledge of any conversation with Anna Glowinski, nor any sight of her designs. Additionally, there had been no communication between our Portsmouth Cycle Clothing Buying Team and our London dhb Design Team relating to this new range.
• The inspiration for the Superstar Jersey (and indeed the other designs in our dhb Blok range, which it forms part of) involved many influences, including national flags and jockey jerseys – absolutely none of which could be traced from AnaNichoola or Anna Glowinski. To be clear the dhb Design team have never been in contact with Anna Glowinski or AnaNichoola Ltd at any stage.
We have shared this statement with Anna before publishing and have offered to meet up and take her though our design process and all of our inspiration material. We appreciate that the coincidence of the designs might have been puzzling for her, though there are so many designs in the marketplace today that it is unsurprising that these similarities coincidently appear from time to time. We wish Anna every success in her new endeavors.
We would also like to take this opportunity to reassure our loyal customers that we, as ever, stay true to the core ethics and principles that have led to our success to date and thank them for their continued support and custom.
Thanks for reading.
Wiggle.

[i]sigh[/i] Another conspiracy theory bites the dust.

So will all the 'disgruntled of the internet' posters be back buying from them again now then?

[img] [/img]

"My God... It's full of stars... "

- Wiggle boss opening the design inspiration folder earlier today 😀

What a load of cock.

The opening line 'following the claim of'

Bet they were pissed that she went on social media first and resolved to come out fighting.

I wont be shopping at wiggle.

A combative wiggle. Nice.

I wont be shopping at wiggle.

A combative wiggle. Nice.

*listens to the grisly sound of loud splats as half a dozen senior Wiggle execs take off from the window ledge*

I wont be shopping at wiggle.

A combative wiggle. Nice.

What should they do then, if their version of events is accurate?

What should they do then, if their version of events is accurate?

MrSalmon the tone is both formal and on the attack. Tbh there are so many better competiyors out there that their response helps put a negative feel and spin around the whole event. Its hardened their brand in my eyes anyway.

MrSalmon the tone is both formal and on the attack.

I find it refreshing in an age of trial by social media that Wiggle haven't adopted the "Innocent Smoothie" style of slushie internet correspondence in response to an accusation that they weren't given the chance to discuss privately.

This happens regularly in many industries

Years ago my fledgling suspension frame company was approached by a well known Northern fruit-themed bike company with a view to us selling our designs. Our riders had been spotted at an NPS DH doing very competitive runs.

We declined but crude prototypes appeared at the next DH race, until the realisation that we did not own the rear suspension design but were licensing it from a well known American company (who ended up selling to Specialized)

No further communication from my company but the prototypes were not seen again....

Sounds like she's just pissed off because wiggle wouldn't give her a job,its just stars on a cycling top,hardly original is it.

*listens to the grisly sound of loud splats as half a dozen senior Wiggle execs take off from the window ledge*

Grisly splats? All I heard is whooping and hi-5s.

[img] [/img]

The wiggle response makes me more suspicious, not less, the Ana Nichoola stars jersey was a big success for a small brand.

It would be one thing to say 'it was on the inspiration board, along with hundreds of other things', its quite another to say 'Ana who?' while you've been negotiating with the designer. Google search for 'womens stars cycling jersey brings it up on the first page but we're to believe Wiggles design team didn't look?

+1

[quote=MrSynthpop ]Google search for 'womens stars cycling jersey brings it up on the first page
It does today, because everyone has been googling it 🙄

[quote=MrSynthpop ]It would be one thing to say 'it was on the inspiration board, along with hundreds of other things', its quite another to say 'Ana who?' while you've been negotiating with the designer.

Good job they didn't say that then. Did you actually read their statement, where it explained the separation between the team designing the dhb kit and the people who'd spoken with Anna, and that therefore none of the discussions with Anna had any input to the designs? Feel free to suggest they're lying if you want, but they quite clearly explain the lack of direct influence.

Has anybody yet found whether Anna has any tin foil hat designs for you lot?

Good job they didn't say that then. Did you actually read their statement, where it explained the separation between the team designing the dhb kit and the people who'd spoken with Anna, and that therefore none of the discussions with Anna had any input to the designs? Feel free to suggest they're lying if you want, but they quite clearly explain the lack of direct influence.

Sorry, I was implying that designers often do research before roughing, developing and finalising work, usually that involves looking into prior art and considering influences both inside and outside of the marketplace that could impact on the final design - mood boards and the like. Colours, fabric swatches, styles etc.

I was expressing surprise that Wiggles 'london based' design team managed to 100% miss the widely available Ana Nichoola range that was sold in Harrods as well as a bunch of other bike shops up and down the country, was on national TV's only cycling show, was on display at multiple national bike shows etc

Sounds like she's just pissed off because wiggle wouldn't give her a job,its just stars on a cycling top,hardly original is it.

Think Wiggle have responded well to this. The Wiggle top is quite different from the design Ana did.

MrSynthpop - Member
The wiggle response makes me more suspicious, not less, the Ana Nichoola stars jersey was a big success for a small brand.

It would be one thing to say 'it was on the inspiration board, along with hundreds of other things', its quite another to say 'Ana who?' while you've been negotiating with the designer. Google search for 'womens stars cycling jersey brings it up on the first page but we're to believe Wiggles design team didn't look?

agreed,
but what else were wiggle going to say though ?...... the threat of lawyers and damage to their reputation

and if I was her id be suspicous too, personally i thnk the statement is BS and theres a designer at DHB right now feelng a little sweaty under the collar about what hes been up to

ultimately its their word against hers cant see itll go anywhere