Forum menu
It makes me laugh when motorists rant about cyclists breaking the rules. So who is likely to come off worse in the event of an accident? The cyclist EVERY SINGLE TIME, regardless of whose fault it was.
So why the vitriol?
Usually they like to counter that particular point by parping on about insurance and damage to their car caused by the cyclist and who will pay to put it right?
I can't say I've had much damage caused to my cars by bikes over the years though, other motorists though? Oh yes!
[quote=mattsccm ]To a small point there is some justification in some complaints. Jumping lights being the one that's obvious . Suggesting car drivers do it is irrelevant. Different topic.
Maybe but it's a bit (null), because you pick any group of people and there will be some doing something wrong or breaking the law - basically because there are dicks and they have varied interests. Though pointing out that drivers also do it isn't at all irrelevant in the context - because the comments about cyclists jumping red lights etc. in this case are in response to a report on drivers being stopped for behaving badly, and the comments typically start "but what about the cyclists", so the drivers are already making the comparison.
Red light jumpers are complete F wits and need their bikes or balls smashing. No reason.
The same applies to drivers who jump red lights? Because following my comment earlier:
[quote=aracer ]almost every day I see several motorists jumping red lights.
...having just been out, my quick survey suggests that 100% of the drivers in a position to do so jump red lights.
Cyclists don't help them selves sadly be it breaking the law or just stupid behaviour be it riding like a dimwit. Until we are perfect we can't expect everyone to be on our side.
So never then. But in a similar way to earlier,why is it you're not saying "drivers don't help them selves sadly be it breaking the law or just stupid behaviour be it driving like a dimwit. Until they are perfect they can't expect everyone to be on their side."?
bigyinn - Member
It makes me laugh when motorists rant about cyclists breaking the rules. So who is likely to come off worse in the event of an accident? The cyclist EVERY SINGLE TIME, regardless of whose fault it was.
So why the vitriol?
Probably because accidents happen comparatively rarely, but interactions happen all the time, and many car-cycle interactions feel inconvenient to the drivers. So in the driver's mind, a thousand little inconveniences build up into a disdain for cyclists and few motorists ever have to face up to the damage that a single car-cycle collision will do to a cyclist.
amedias - MemberI've even told a light-jumping cyclist he was an embarrassment to other cyclistsWhat about shoe wearers who do bad things, why aren't, you as a fellow shoe wearer, outraged at their behaviour?
Do you also tell people who speed/drink drive/use mobiles etc. that they're an embarrassment to other drivers?
It's bizarre how cyclists get lumped together as some kind of collective group where the actions of an individual are used to justify an attitude towards others.
Point being that his choice of transport does not magically make him a representative of 'cyclists', or in any way related to the other cyclists, as the driver in front of you is a representative of 'other drivers'.
eg: this, I know it was in jest but it's a great example of the kind of stuff that does get trotted out for real
When people see a shoe-wearer or a driver doing something bad, they think of it as just a person doing something bad.
When people see a cyclist doing something bad, they think "F*ing cyclists"
Or words to that effect 😉
Not saying that this is in any way good but it's a fact that this happens and cyclists [i]do[/i] get lumped together as some kind of collective group, therefore yes I will get annoyed at other cyclists jumping lights etc because like it or not this is will affect me directly - drivers get annoyed at me (cycling correctly & safely) because they see cyclists in general as dangerous annoying rule breakers.
In a similar way, as a member of an ethnic minority group I am hyper aware that my behaviour will be taken as representative of the group. (I don't really see this as racism as such, more human nature. Subconscious racism? There's another whole can of worms!)
When people see a shoe-wearer or a driver doing something bad, they think of it as just a person doing something bad.When people see a cyclist doing something bad, they think "F*ing cyclists"
Or words to that effect
That's exactly the effect I find curious!
Similarly how it applies to this:
The thing is a whole load of people who have chosen to cycle do ride on pavements/run lights etc. EVERY DAY.... It doesn't take many Boris Johnson's to commit multiple offences every single day for us all to get lumped with the same shitty stick....
And how 'drivers' don't get hit with the same shitty stick for the transgressions of other drivers who have chosen to speed/drink drive/use mobile/$other_dangerous_thing.
I fully understand it happens, and I understand some of the psychology behind it, but I still find it curious, and I challenge it when I experience people* doing it, if only to try and make them think.
*myself too
Even if i could understand the stereotyping, I still can't understand the casual disregard for others peoples safety, or in some cases lives.
That recent case where a driver killed someone in a hit and run and claimed she thought the thing she hit was a sack of potatoes falling from the sky was horrendous.
I can't think of any other situation where otherwise normal people act like that, except in a car.
Interestingly this has just appeared on local news website
[url= http://www.swindonadvertiser.co.uk/news/15247512.VIDEO__Dashcam_footage_helps_nab_Thamesdown_Drive_red_light_runner/ ]Police requesting dashcam footage[/url]
I would genuinely be interested if I could submit a weeks worth of my commuting footage, which would be worth about 3 prosecutions daily. Good to see this being taken seriously by the local police force though.
It's not just bile against cyclists either. I had a guy ranting at me in the car behind as I drove at 30 through a 30 zone...crazy.
I'm not sure, are we supposed to be angry at:- old guys
- middle lane hoggers
- caravaners
- drivers in general?
- that particular person
That particular person, for being a middle lane hog.
The rest of the items on that list are just fine.
Comments on the news sites, facebook and twitter are generally short, giving no time to make reasoned arguments so most comments are unreasonable nonsense.
Mostly this ^^.
The counter arguments - ones about "road tax doesn't actually pay for the roads, it goes to the Treasury...blah blah" and "well I'm riding in the middle of the lane because I specifically want to stop you squeezing through this gap and it's called primary position and the Highway Code actually recommends this...blah blah" take a long time to explain. They are reasoned responses and no-one who's just yelled "****ING CYCLIST, PAY YER ROAD TAX!" is in any sort of mood to hear a reasoned response never mind go "gosh do you know what, you're absolutely right, terribly sorry old chap, have a lovely day and I'll never shout that again"
Trying to explain why I (occasionally) jump red lights - well it gets me away from the F1 starting grid behind me, it gives me just that extra few seconds of safety to get up to speed and, astonishingly, I'm actually more out of your way therefore making it easier for you, the motorist, it's almost me giving you special extra consideration, while making me safer! Win all round.
But that takes too long to explain and is too subtle for the average motorist to understand.
The answer to all of this is proper infrastructure. Where that is supplied, there is no need to jump lights, ride in the middle of the lane, slow drivers down. Everyone can be happy. One local newspaper actually ran a surprisingly balanced piece arguing for safe segregated infrastructure saying that it gives the motorist his/her own lane back. No need for any extra care with safe overtaking or getting angry watching cyclists filter because they're out of your way!
The responses were mostly "make cyclists pay for it".
🙁
I never get the rlj for safety thing.
If riding in traffic was that dangerous you wouldn't do it.
+1cynic-al - Member
I never get the rlj for safety thing.
I've never needed to, nor felt the need to.
Dedicated infrastructure sounds like a fix but isn't. It's better that drivers learn to share the existing roads or they'll not know what to do when they suddenly encounter a cyclist somewhere there is no cycle track. Familiarity and understanding is what's needed.
So the Dutch have it all wrong, scotroutes?
I never get the rlj for safety thing.
TJ defines crossing the line by a few feet then stopping as RLJing. That does often make sense. That's why they invented ASLs. Before they were common I would always go infront of the traffic so they could all see me, and THEN wait.
He doesn't mean sailing clear through a junction on red which is what most people mean I think.
So the Dutch have it all wrong, scotroutes?
He's right. Whilst infrastructure is convenient, it's not *the solution* to drivers hating cyclists and treating us with contempt.
I think that the Netherlands has both good infrastructure and positive attitudes. If we had the infrastructure, we'd be ghettoised and drivers would hate us all the more when we weren't on it; whenever we wanted to get somewhere or do some training when there's a footpath next to us with a hundred driveways, several grannies and a round blue sign.
I almost get that molgrips, and agree that we should always be allowed on roads.
Whilst infrastructure is convenient, it's not *the solution* to drivers hating cyclists and treating us with contempt.
Agreed.
But it can be the solution to incompetent numpties half asleep at the wheel of a couple of tons of steel mixing it up close and personal with pedestrians and riders.
Oh yes - I like it in places, and I use it too - in places. But the best solution imo is cyclist provision on normal roads.
cynic-al - MemberI never get the rlj for safety thing.
It's recognised and built into the law in some places (US "right turn on red", French cyclist signing), people seem fairly convinced of the benefits. It makes sense to me, red lights certainly see enough pointless accidents, and keeping traffic flowing reduces frustration.
My ten penith,
Me: Mountain biker who also rides 10 miles at lunch on roads with road bike near work.
Bikes on road/ bikes on road two abreast. normal guy riding alone. I slow down when I see him. Wait until a big enough gap appears and when not on a corner and then pass. Two bikes riding two abreast /two idiots riding two abreast and blatantly holding up the traffic.
Same process as above. I'm patient and even though some riders act like a holes I'm not going to serve a manslaughter charge for a couple of seconds or a few hundred yards of tarmac.
The drivers I hate are the ones that see a bike or bikes and then see you coming and then decide that they have the right to nearly run you clean off the road in your car and then somehow think it's the bikers fault because they are causing an obstruction !! Total twunts
US "right turn on red"
That's for cars as well.
Two bikes riding two abreast /two idiots riding two abreast and blatantly holding up the traffic.
But isnt it safer?
People protecting themselves, their space on the road and their lives are dicks?
two [s]idiots[/s][b]people[/b] riding two abreast and [s]blatantly holding up the[/s]being traffic taking up minimal road space for safe overtaking.
FTFY
Cloud nine,
Not all are dicks mate, but you do see a few,
I ride two abreast sometimes at lunch too, always pull in behind or in front when cars approach. I have no issue with two abreast I still wait but for a lot of drivers it's red rags to a bull,
My point is that some car drivers will not only risk the lives of riders acting like dicks or not and Will deliberately run you off the road as they see it as there god given right to have your side of road if there's an obstruction on there's ! That's my point buddy
Chill
molgrips - MemberThat's for cars as well.
Yep, and for the same reasons.
Northwind i don't think crazys comment were just about left turns.
Never seen an accident at a red light.
It really is bizarre some of the behaviour you come across riding a bicycle on the road. I got beeped at (twice in 5 seconds) commuting home tonight by a learner (vehicle at least).. I can only assume this was because I dared to ride a whole metre from the curb as it was blowing a hooly and it meant I couldn't hold as straight a line as I would have liked.
The thing I really don't get is that me riding to work is 1 less car on th road as it's sat on my drive! I'm doing them a bloody favour!
In addition to the beeping learner I also had a close pass followed immediately by a sharp braking manoeuvre as the tit stopped to let van coming the other way turn right across the front of them. Nearly went straight thru the rear windy. Imagine overtaking another car in your car and then just slamming the brakes on? Wouldn't happen.
Cyclists don't help them selves sadly be it breaking the law or just stupid behaviour be it riding like a dimwit. Until we are perfect we can't expect everyone to be on our side.
No. My right to be treated with respect when I'm cycling on the road is not dependent on the behaviour of other cyclists.
Have you ever looked at the facts about road incidents? I looked up the Scottish figures on incidents caused by ignoring traffic lights a few years ago. 95% of incidents are caused by motorists (see the Transport Scotland website for the data).
The CTC published analysis on incidents involving pedestrians. 98% of all pedestrian death and injury in the UK is caused by motorists.
Motorists are responsible for about 4 or 5 road deaths every day in the UK. Cycling accounts for one or two deaths per annum.
When I look at those figures, I don't feel any obligation to collectively apologise for the behaviour of "cyclists". People will argue about the relative population size of cyclists and motorists, and miles travelled, but in absolute terms, it is pretty obvious who is causing the damage on UK roads.
So why not stop apologising, challenge the people complaining about cyclists, and ask them why motorists aren't cleaning up their act?
One local newspaper actually ran [s]a surprisingly[/s] an unsurprisingly [s]balanced[/s] bigoted piece arguing for safe segregated infrastructure saying that it [b]gives the motorist his/her (sic) own lane back[/b].
FTFY
Not really, Bird watchers, Train Spotters etc. all have stereotypes...because it's something of a self identity we choose... whereas driving is a "default"
^ I find this to be a very curious assertion. Our surfaced road network is here largely by the efforts of cyclists. Cyclists (road-users on bicycles) never went away. Cars are allowed by permit.
Motorists, cyclists, motorcyclists, horse-riders, tractor-drivers etc etc are all r[b]oad-users[/b]. There is no 'default'. There is, I own, a sense of 'entitlement by numbers', or 'might is right'. So motorists (car-drivers) are increasingly elbowing out the 'competition', even so far as to persuade some cyclists (bicycle-riders) that they somehow 'chose' their own minority status and are somehow deserving of a negative stereotype.
Also, I do not 'choose a self-identity' by choosing to either cycle or drive on any particular day. I am simply choosing a mode of transport. The 'identity' is being applied by others. I don't even wear funky leotards.
Cars may be the new colonists, but I refuse to be the hated 'injun' simply on account of colonial propaganda. We are all road-users and humans.
Cyclists don't help them selves sadly be it breaking the law or just stupid behaviour be it riding like a dimwit. Until we are perfect we can't expect everyone to be on our side.
That's getting perilously close to the "earning respect" bollocks that gets trotted out regularly. You really honestly think it every single "cyclist" - from the kid on the BMX to the MTBer riding a short stretch of road in between trails to the road club out for a Sunday spin to the commuter on his Brompton... - behaved absolutely impeccably, rode completely totally within the law and doffed their cap to every passing motorist that "drivers" (as a collective like "cyclists") would suddenly say Oh look at all the perfect cyclists, I will now direct all my anger and frustration at someone else! ? Really?
Never going to happen and anyone saying about "earn respect" or "gives a bad name to cyclists" or similar needs to be challenged and made to realise that it's an extremely dangerous attitude to have.
Cyclists don't help them selves sadly be it breaking the law or just stupid behaviour be it riding like a dimwit. Until we are perfect we can't expect everyone to be on our side.
Sarcasm, surely? Just like the 'Polish fellows need to earn respect if they want to come into our country'.
Somehow, many drivers are having an idea that the roads are 'their country' and anyone on the road yet not in a car is an 'immigrant' (read: 'imposter)', therefore liable to be treated as a homogenous 'group' rather than an individual. In this, anyone deemed in this 'group' is held not only to higher standards than the majority (motorists) - but also in lower regard - simply on account of being regarded as an outsider/minority/'immigrant'.
It's a shitty attitude, and a prevalent one. Humour will save us. That, and 'be excellent to one another.' Yes, even to that total prick who wants to run you off the road as a 'lesser' species. The irony of him doesn't change who you are, or how you should conduct yourself.
Driving one of my eight wheelers last week(we had two drivers off),come up behind an old roadie, pinch points all along the road,so I can't accelerate enough to safely pass,so I sit well back at maybe 10 mph, cars trying to drive under my back axle . The next lay by we come to the old feller pulls in,still cycling to allow me past. A quick toot on the Horn from me,a wave from him,everyone's happy. The thing is we need to get rid of the whole them and us thing. Stopped reading ride cc months ago got bored of the whole thing.
I've got one, I've got one!
Only this morning, riding into the centre of Glasgow, slowing on approach to a red light and a bus comes roaring into my left hand side from behind, less than a foot away from me. Driver's window was open, so once we'd both stopped at the lights, I asked would he mind not driving his bus so close to me, no shouting/ranting/swearing, just nice and calm and polite. He angrily told me (complete with swearing) that I'd filtered really close up his side at the last set of lights (he was stationary, I was approaching the ASL), and this appeared to be his justification for intimidating me.
I realised that he sees no difference between me riding my bike near his stationary bus and him driving his bus near my moving bike, as though we're both just units on the road invading one another's personal space. Astounding.
His bus was a single-decker though, so just a wee one. Probably not as bad.
That's poor form from the bus driver 2tyred. I hate that "tit for tat" argument and have heard it myself - like you say, as if we're all just equal units on the road. The potential for harm with bus vs cycle is horrific and they scare the shit out of me..
Late last year I had a bus close pass (a foot or less) at circa 50mph and it knocked my confidence. I rang the bus company after getting the reg/bus number/time etc. and basically just said "have a word with the driver because someone will end up dead". I provided my details but never heard back... Worst bit was there was sweet FA coming the other way so I genuinely think he may not have even seen me. On the plus side, the same bus (not sure about driver) give me plenty of room this morning!
crazy-legs - MemberThat's getting perilously close to the "earning respect" bollocks that gets trotted out regularly.
Yup. Nobody should be talking about "earning" the minimum legal, safe standard of driving from other road users. We're not asking for anything special or demanding.
I overtook a bus once, just before he pulled out from a stop, he then close passes me and forces me into the kerb deliberately.
After some choice words I went to the back of his bus and hit the stop engine button.
I also made a complaint to the bus company, but the response was a fairly basic, "we'll look into it...".
bigyinn - Member
It makes me laugh when motorists rant about cyclists breaking the rules. So who is likely to come off worse in the event of an accident? The cyclist EVERY SINGLE TIME, regardless of whose fault it was.
So why the vitriol?
Usually they like to counter that particular point by parping on about insurance and damage to their car caused by the cyclist and who will pay to put it right?
I can't say I've had much damage caused to my cars by bikes over the years though, other motorists though? Oh yes!
it's the cyclist [b][i]nearly[/i][/b] caused an accident thing....I've told a few people to listen the traffic news and tell me how many of those "accidents" were caused by cyclists nearly causing them
kcr.....Have you ever looked at the facts about road incidents? I looked up the Scottish figures on incidents caused by ignoring traffic lights a few years ago. 95% of incidents are caused by motorists (see the Transport Scotland website for the data).
The CTC published analysis on incidents involving pedestrians. 98% of all pedestrian death and injury in the UK is caused by motorists.
Motorists are responsible for about 4 or 5 road deaths every day in the UK. Cycling accounts for one or two deaths per annum.When I look at those figures, I don't feel any obligation to collectively apologise for the behaviour of "cyclists".
exactly - been living in Aus' last few years and have the luxury of pointing at this bit of research:
[url] http://www.monash.edu/__data/assets/pdf_file/0019/217306/muarc322.pdf [/url]
Regular commuter cyclists in Canberra where fitted with video cameras and their daily interactions evaluated by the researchers over quite some time...from the executive summary (italics added)
"No collision events were recorded. A total of 91 potentially unsafe cyclist-interactions were identified. [i]In the majority of events (93.4%), the behaviour of the driver led to the event.[/i] The most common event type was left turn (37.3%) which involved a driver turning left across the path of the
cyclist, drivers turning across cyclists’ path from the adjacent direction (32.9%). Unexpectedly opened vehicle doors accounted for 17.6% of cyclist-driver interactions. [i]In the majority of all events, a crash was avoided due to the evasive actions taken by cyclists.[/i]"
2tyred - report to police and contact bus company, asking them to review footage from bus onboard camera
The next lay by we come to the old feller pulls in,still cycling to allow me past. A quick toot on the Horn from me,a wave from him,everyone's happy.
The problem is though, he will have to merge back into the road at some point, which is more dangerous for him than just staying there in the first place. This is often the reason people don't use cycle lanes, because they will eventually leave you in a more dangerous place than you would have been if it wasn't there.
Never seen an accident at a red light.
I've had one. Lass that had recently passed her test drove into the back of me because I stopped at red and she wasn't going to.
Luckily it was the Explosif, so I just yanked the stays back straight again and rebuilt the wheel.
I've had one. Lass that had recently passed her test drove into the back of me because I stopped at red and she wasn't going to.
😆 so the only example we have of an accident at a red light was caused by the cyclist not jumping the light?
Lol @ aracer!
Bez - just read that. Excellent article. Spot on.