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which are so powerful that they can provide enough W to propel one elite cyclist away from another?
I would have thought it was more a matter of keeping the athlete out of the red longer so that they can attack with greater effect.
You can buy them - it was mentioned up there (and of course they've just been given the ultimate bit of marketing, I wonder how much they paid her to get caught? 😈 )
http://www.vivax-assist.com/en/produkte/vivax-assist-4-0/vivax-assist_4-0.php
Not cheap though, even compared to other e-bikes
What strikes me as odd is that if these motors are a real "thing" and if they are so beneficial, then the engineering companies making them stand to make substantially more money by actually putting them in consumer versions of the bikes rather than in just a handful (??) of pro bikes.
Good point.
Can I assume from now on that 80% of the people quicker than me on Strava are motor-doping?
Well as they have confirmed that its the bike she was racing it does mean she was technically cheating.
As to whether it was intentional is a different matter but now its going to be hard for her to prove not.
I do wonder that if the bike needed a battery and she didn't have one fitted , for example, she would be guilty. Or just carrying extra weight?
But the UCI have announced the find, I thought i'd read that at least, and they are setting a date for a hearing.
I guess that's it. The UCI have found some evidence that they believe points to a rule violation. She's been "charged" with a violation but not yet found guilty.
Let's just keep in mind that this is the career of a young person we're speculating over.
That she hasn't quite got the edge, maybe not got quite enough capacity or the mental aptitude to push through and take the win.
I'd be a bit surprised given her age and that she has a lot of years to develop ahead of her.
larkim, ebikes are more for touring and have pretty big gear boxes and even bigger batteries, one of these devices are meant to be hidden in the frame, concealed, and i can only imagine are fairly small.
Probably reliant more than anything on Battery status. Gel batteries could be utilised as oposed to a more conventional Solid State battery pack, slipping 3 AA's down the Chain stay via a hatch with a made in Taiwan logo embossed underneath would give it away.
These concealed devices "I think" are more of a one time hit, on that bit where you need to get away on a climb, or when your hanging out, I dont actually know how they work, but imagining they cant last long.
Like most things, Oh yes its got a 3 hour battery life, then its flat in 20 mins, but i think everyone racing on e-bikes, is a good idea, level the playing fiels back out a tad.
Gazetta dello Sport reporting on electromagnetic wheels as the latest approach to mechanical doping.
That she hasn't quite got the edge, maybe not got quite enough capacity or the mental aptitude to push through and take the win.
or been sacrificed to take the heat off someone else...makes you think.
mattsccm - MemberWell as they have confirmed that its the bike she was racing it does mean she was technically cheating.
Link please
Apologies if already mentioned, but for those who are interested, Cyclist magazine did an article on these devices several issues back. If I get chance later I'll see if I can find a link.
[quote=CaptainFlashheart ]Gazetta dello Sport reporting on electromagnetic wheels as the latest approach to mechanical doping.
From what I can gather from what I've seen of that it appears to be a load of rubbish by somebody who doesn't understand electromagnetics very well (or they've been taken in by somebody doing a deliberate spoof). You can't just make a motor with the rim of the wheel without something for it to work against (not one providing any usable amount of power).
A quick read of the specs of the device in question says it supplies only 200W (which AIUI is a good deal less than most consumer e-bikes), the battery only lasts for 60-90 mins (which isn't much of a ride) plus there is no speed control over the motor, it's just on or off. So not great for an e-bike, but ideal for giving you a bit of a boost during a race!What strikes me as odd is that if these motors are a real "thing" and if they are so beneficial, then the engineering companies making them stand to make substantially more money by actually putting them in consumer versions of the bikes rather than in just a handful (??) of pro bikes.
Gazetta dello Sport reporting on electromagnetic wheels as the latest approach to mechanical doping.
Gazetto dello Sport appear to be taking their stories from this thread then
For pure amusement I suggest that his brake blocks where magnets and there was a current passing through the rim.
Well done Tonto, you're a source now 😆
I really wish her the best, I hope she stays stable and focused and has the support she needs around her.
Let's just keep in mind that this is the career of a young person we're speculating over.
I think this is a very important point to remember, even if it turns out she was deliberately cheating, we need to remember that she won;t have done so in isolation, there will have been external influences, assistance and possibly even some level of pressure, and at 18/19 she, like many young people will have felt that pressure very strongly, and people make all sorts of stupid decisions when young that they later go on to regret, she may be an adult, but only just and growing up as a top level athlete is a terribly difficult thing, even when you're winning.
While I'm sure she may deserve punishment, and maybe a lengthy ban, it IS important to recognise that a lot of blame will also lie with the surrounding individuals that both enabled this, and are responsible for that pressure*.
As Bikebouy says, I hope she gets the support she needs as this will be tough for her, and far lesser things have lead to terribly tragic outcomes.
Throw the book at her (them) by all means, but make sure you're there to deal with the bruises too.
*I mean come on, what respectable team/coach/support network would [i]allow [/i]a young athlete to make such a bad decision, let alone assist them, or worse, push them into it? It's not something she could have done alone, the team/support are as much to blame as anyone.
[quote=zilog6128 ]A quick read of the specs of the device in question says it supplies only 200W (which AIUI is a good deal less than most consumer e-bikes), the battery only lasts for 60-90 mins (which isn't much of a ride) plus there is no speed control over the motor, it's just on or off. So not great for an e-bike, but ideal for giving you a bit of a boost during a race!
UK legal ones are only 250W and 200W is plenty - especially if used more as an assist given these are going to be fitted to bikes ridden by people with higher power output than most normal e-bike riders. 60-90 minutes of power, you don't have to use it the whole time (if you use that just on the climbs, that would be a pretty long ride). It's hard to tell exactly how it's working, but they mention stuff about it sensing pedal revs and only working in a given range, which suggests it does modulate the power rather than just throwing it all in - the on-off switch is probably just an add-on to the usual e-bike stuff.
I have to admit it's quite tempting in a way - if it wasn't so expensive it would be a laugh to have on the local chaingang 😉
They would be ideal for motor pacing in a team.
Motor pacing with a moped/m-bike is illegal in most of Europe. Getting an e-bike with enough grunt then modifying it to exceed the speed/power limits is expensive, then puts you back into the illegality of motor pacing with a moped.
Stick a couple of these in last year's team bikes and take it in turns to be the pacer. Couple of lads doing big turns at ~300W plus the 200/250 of the vivax/gruber thing gives you a 500W pacer bike that the police will ignore, you don't need a licence to ride it either.
Just have to be careful not to get it in the back of the team bus by mistake.
aracer, calling me out as irrational and convicted (by you) conspiracy theorist is irrational.
But you carry on filling the Internet up with your theories, conspiracy or not.
🙄
[b]Chris Boardman[/b] from as far back as 03 Jun [b]2010[/b]
[i]"I sat at a meeting with the UCI last year and drew on the blackboard exactly how this might work. I showed them how some the sophisticated boosting technology now available, mainly [b]from F1 teams, that can get a kilowatt out of a single AAA battery.[/b]
"And don't forget electrically operated gears are legal these days so there is already a power source on many bikes. I think it would be fair to say there was a stunned silence after I said my piece."
"It would be very little trouble adapting a power source to give you maybe a couple of hundred watts for 20 minutes or so, which would basically gives you [b]40 per cent more power[/b] through the pedals in a time trial say.
"You could reduce that power and spread it over a longer period of time or go for one "hit".
"Its potential is obvious. You could use it when you are trying to establish a break or on the crux of the last climb of the day or maybe in the latter stages of a long time-trial. [/i]"
I have seen opinions elsewhere that say cheating could be integrated with electronic gear changes or via radio from the team car etc so no direct rider involvement would occur.
It would be very little trouble adapting a power source to give you maybe a couple of hundred watts for 20 minutes or so
be an interest development if the UCI said no batteries at all on competition bikes.
[i] via radio from the team car etc so no direct rider involvement would occur. [/i]
Although setting the bluetooth id of the devices to "Chris Froome's Motor" or "Cav's Sprint Booster" would be a bit of a give away 🙂
Just to be clear, does anyone know if its 30.9mm or 31.6mm compatible?
Yep, I have a bit of sympathy for her not realising how big a thing this is. In some ways if it had been a bit of EPO it would have gone unnoticed by nearly everyone but now she is really in the world's spotlight.I think this is a very important point to remember, even if it turns out she was deliberately cheating, we need to remember that she won;t have done so in isolation,
Only for 5 seconds. The point is well made though, we already have power sources on a bike that could give us, for example, 10W for 500secondsthat can get a kilowatt out of a single AAA battery
kilowatt out of a single AAA battery
Well, yeah. For like, a split-second.
EDIT - bah.
be an interest development if the UCI said no batteries at all on competition bikes
Well they've already said no motors on bikes, but...
wwaswas - Member
via radio from the team car etc so no direct rider involvement would occur.Although setting the bluetooth id of the devices to "Chris Froome's Motor" or "Cav's Sprint Booster" would be a bit of a give away
That's me off to get a rucksack full of cheap mobile phones to wander around the pits at the next race with! 😆
Kilowatt out of one AAA, is this another one of those "6 bar in a tubular" statements? Possibly true but almost certainly not happening in the real world.
(I reckon an AAA would either melt or explode if you tried dragging 1 kW out of it)
from F1 teams, that can get a kilowatt out of a single AAA battery.
? a primary li-ion AAA has a nominal capacity of 350 mAh @ 3.6V. That's 1.26 Wh for an hour. IF they could extract that energy at a rate of kW's, it would be for seconds...
Wouldn't it just be easier to have a standard battery.
You can either have 500W for one minute or 100W for 5. Thats the total energy available in this standard free issue battery we've decided to use.
I think there has been rumours regarding this for some time, Thats why i think when Hesjedal went down Some folk "ME Included" wanted to believe or at least try and fathom why the bike responded the way it did.
If we or "Me" are thinking this try and imagine giving it your all, at the top of your game and coming up short, you would start to ask yourself serious questions, its only natural that you would include others in your calculations, maybe's become what if's become why? then you start looking for things in others and who knows what you begin to see.
There are a whole host of reason to do it, reasons not to. Methods to determine how and when the power comes on tap. I think that any one who has used it or are contemplating it might just think twice now.
New Scrutineering added for 2016
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[quote=bikebouy ]But you carry on filling the Internet up with your theories, conspiracy or not.
The theory that when the UCI say there's a motor in the bike that means there's a motor in the bike, or some other theory? Or is that just a wild ad hom?
Theories are fine, just expect to get called out on them if they involve disbelieving the accepted authority on something until they provide [b]you[/b] with evidence.
Keep going...
More on grit.cx: [url= http://http://grit.cx/news/2016/02/cyclcross-motor-doping-what-we-know ]here[/url]
It's LA-denying deja vu all over again. When the WADA report came out people demanded to see the evidence ie. the test results, of which there were none, it was all sworn depositions from other riders, soigneurs etc. Criminal courts work to a higher burden of proof than any other and people can be convicted on witness testimony without any physical evidence.
In this case the UCI president has said there's a motor in one of her bikes. The ACCUSED RIDER has offered a long winded explanation as to how it got into her pit. She hasn't denied there is a motor, she hasn't demanded that the UCI produce the evidence, she's offered an explanation as a defence.
CPS barrister: "you're accused of stabbing this man to death".
defendant: "it was an accident, I only tried to scare him with it and he slipped and fell on it".
Bikebouy on the Jury: "I DON'T BELIEVE IT HAPPENED I HAVEN'T SEEN THE KNIFE!".
There is nothing rational about your stance, Bikebouy, it flies in the face of all the information we do so far have. There is sceptical and there is just being contrary.
I DO agree that it is extremely unlikely she did this alone, or was even responsible for orchestrating it, and shouldn't be the only person receiving punishment, but whilst she maintains her current stance she's not assisting the wider investigation.
When asked if this could spell the end of her young career Van den Driessche said, “yes, I think so.”Van den Driessche offered up a potential reason for the bike’s presence, saying that it was owned by someone she’d been training with. “That bike belongs to a friend of mine,” she said. “He trains along with us. He joined my brothers and my father. That friend joined my brother at the reconnaissance and he placed the bike against the truck but it’s identical to mine. Last year he bought it from me. My mechanics have cleaned the bike and put it in the truck. They must’ve thought that it was my bike. I don’t know how it happened.”
Quoted from Cycling News.
She was flanked by her Father who, it's said, is someone not to cross. Theres a good piece on Road.cc about "pushy parents"
[url= http://road.cc/content/news/177363-mechanical-doping-are-pushy-parents-blame-youngsters-cheating-video ]Linky[/url]
She's 19, theres a lot more to this story than just a kid using/potentially using a bike with a motor in it.
I feel sorry for her.
me tooI feel sorry for her.
she cheated, though
And double entente of the week goes to Liam Kileen, who when asked about the story said:
"I’d question the whole team because I don’t think an under-23 lady would have the means to put a motor into her bottom bracket.”
If this was cluedo my money would be on the father, behind the team bus with a torque wrench. Have to agree it's not something she could have done herself, but it sounds like she comes from a win at all costs family and the pressure might have been too much. Can't see it being the national team, Prosbly not the trade team either if she has a specific mechanic
She's old enough to vote, get married, have children, join the army. She's old enough to know not to stick a motor in the BB and then lie about it afterwards.
I just watched a clip of her riding in some race, (i dont know anything about cyclocross) why do they change the bikes on a lap when the tires are only [i]slightly[/i] muddy seems a bit unnecessary?
Also even before her alleged "motor assisted" cheating, i'd ban her for her terrible cornering first!
Yep. The speed with which her coach dropped her wasn't very seemly either. I'm guessing there is a bigger story going on somewhereShe's 19, theres a lot more to this story than just a kid using/potentially using a bike with a motor in it.
[quote=leffeboy ]The speed with which her coach dropped her
Did he have a bigger motor?
Oooooooo....I wonder if one of those would fit in the bottom of my lefty fork, custom axle made up....front wheel drive, that'll confuse the scrutineers!
Getting power out of any battery is fundamentally limited by the internal resistance of the battery. Its then down to Ohm's law if you short the battery ie P=V squared/R. To get maximum power transfer into a load, the resistance of the load (ie the motor) needs to be the same as the internal resistance of the battery. Typically dry cells like alkaline AAAs have a much higher internal resistance than a lead acid car battery which can deliver a lot of power in a short burst. In practice you would struggle to get 10W from a 1.5V alkaline cell and it would get very hot.
She's in the clear.
The motor-bike owner has come forward
He was probably just delivering lunch 😆
Ah, glad that's all sorted out then. Makes perfect sense.
Can you say "fall guy"?