Can’t believe anyone would take this job on. Do it wrong and you ruin a frame, do it right and get paid pennies.
Reaming a seat tube is a standard worksop job, thats why lbs's have the tool. I'd imagine they though there was a burr or two that needed cleaning up. I'd imagine the OP thought the same. When I worked in a Lbs we probably wouldn't have made a charge in this case. But it's probably fair to make some charge. I don't think the Op is off to think it's not right to charge him the full amount. But it's only £20 live and learn.
It would be interesting to know why the tube got thicker a bit further down, it doesn't sound normal. The idea that it was plain guage tubing that was milled to fit a seat tube isn't stupid. Some tubing is also rolled and seam welded at which point you would also need to do something to fit a seat tube (I don't know if they do that for bike tubing though)
If it was only a case of a few mm I would have thought it was ok. More than that I would want to know more about why the tube was butted and by how much
edit: and considering @taxi25's comment, I wonder if there is a difference to how it 'feels' when removing burrs compared to removing real material - ie. the shop got to the point where they realised that it wasn't just a burr blocking the tube and decided to stop there (which isn't unreasonable imho)
How far down the tube is the butting? How long is the seat post?
Thread should have stopped here:
you’re being unreasonable
you’ve paid someone for their time and to use tools that you don’t have, they have done the job to the best of their ability and more importantly they have not compromised the integrity of the frame, which you would have been a bit annoyed at if they had done so and it had failed at a later date, despite them giving you the result you specifically asked for
Not really. Either the shop didn't know about this type of frame tubing beforehand in which case they gained some knowledge and experience and had to pay for it with however much time it took to investigate. Or they did know about it and took the job on by mistake.
Either way the customer shouldn't have had to pay anything.
Bulge butted:
Reynolds say:
When frames are being constructed by TIG welding, the single-butted seat tube, with 0.5mm wall thickness at the top, would not be strong enough to accept the heat of the welding. One method to overcome this is to use a sleeve over the outside of the tube. However, Reynolds eliminate the need for this with bulge-butted seat tubes. These are double-butted tubes, with different thicknesses at each end. A typical tube would be 0.9/0.6/1.2mm thick. At the 1.2mm end, we then bulge the tube so the inside diameter is 27.2, which would take a standard seat pillar. The frame builder also has the extra thickness for TIG welding
They gained 20 quid but lost a new potential customer.
I wouldn't go back to them personally but there are excellent bike workshops out there.
I'm not going to comment on the rest as I seem to be in the minority here...
However, Can anyone give me a half decent reason why a bike shop didn't bother to call/ text the customer to say there was an issue carrying out his request in order to defuse the situation in the first place?
Personally, if I get a message to say to come pick up a car/ bike whatever, I tend to assume all is well and the job has been done?
If there is a problem for any reason I think it's reasonable to be told beforehand.
I think the fact you said you don't like confrontation so just paid it but then came on to a forum to have a childish winge says a lot about your character.
Very odd
I'm not having a childish whinge at all! I felt put out at the time, but often have difficulty in ascertaining whether it's me being unreasonable (as I have a habit of being) or whether it was justifiable. Hence I thought I would seek the opinion of the hive mind. If you look back at the previous page, you'll see that I concluded that yes, I was being a little unreasonable, and gracefully accepted that. 🙂
In response to your other remark; yes, I am a little odd..
Big-Bud
I think the fact you said you don’t like confrontation so just paid it but then came on to a forum to have a childish winge says a lot about your character.
Very odd
Many people don't like confrontation. I don't. He then comes on here to ask opinions and is very accepting even of negative ones.
Seems a reasonable guy to me.
You seem judgmental and small minded frankly.*
I find that odd.
*If I were to judge you based on a single post on a forum...
I would expect a phone call to say it cant be done, how would you like to proceed.
I stop work when something unexpected comes up and, explain options/costs and ask the customer how they wish to proceed from here (unless contingencies were agreed previously)
Sounds like poor communication. I would also for a job like that initially quote, its X to take a look, Y to complete the job assuming it can be done.
Not all bike shops/mechanics are bad, just the same as any other industry, there are brilliant/good/bad/lazy /incompetent etc, problem is finding out who is competent can be expensive! Talking to the mechanic is often better than talking to floor staff who book it in and then the mechanic works for their notes, lots of potential for confusion there between customer, floor staff, notes, and mechanic
Looking at that picture above it looks like it should be 27.2 mm from L1 down to L3. I would imagine that L3 would be a few inches above the bottom bracket. If they were reaming that far down I'd be very surprised.
Unless its a small frame and a long seat post I can't see butting coming into it. If its a long seat post (400mm?) just cut it down it won't be NOS condition for much longer with 350mm of post in the frame.
Like tools and dislike lbs? £17 gets you an adjustable reamer (plus you need a few quid more for a handle). Then you can discover how much sweat and time hand reaming a decent amount out of a steel tube takes 🙂
https://www.tracytools.com/straight-taper-reamers/11-16-13-16-adjustable-reamer
The opening post is wrong in more ways than I can be arsed to comment about.
OP - what’s the frame so we can cut out all the avoidable babble about the seat tube internal dimensions?
For context: I don’t use LBS’s if I can help it as I don’t trust anyone to do work the way I want it done – I’d always rather buy the tools and do it myself so that I know it’s been done right.
I know how you feel. I had a bike that went in for frame bearings and they declared that "it didn't really need them and we've just repacked them instead". They charged me a shit load of labour only and the bearings were completely knackered 3 months later when I inspected them.
I bought the tools and parts the next day and taught myself how to do the job myself. It cost me less than I had paid the LBS to make a pig's ear of it. I've not taken a bike to a shop since.
Sorry to all of the LBS mechanics here - I'm sure you don't suck but my LBS did and I wouldn't use one again.
Reaming a frame for more post penetrative insertion seems like a bad idea.
They probably should have just called you back to say it's not doable.
If you can't safety saw a little bit of the seat tube then it seems the frame is completely the wrong size for you.
Why would you want to modify the frame rather than shorten the seat post?
I would not have paid . They didn't do the job you asked them to do . A bit like asking somebody to go and buy you a chicken and they come back with sausages and expect you to pay .
They didn’t do the job you asked them to do . A bit like asking somebody to go and buy you a chicken and they come back with sausages and expect you to pay .
But they took the effort, workshop time and staff to attempt to. Is it the LBSs fault that the actual work could not physically be completed ? If it had taken 30 mins to find out it was not possible.... They still need paying for that 30 mins ?
Plenty of tradesmen will come to your house and quote for jobs free of charge . If they don't get the job they don't send you a bill for their time . I had 3 quotes for a new kitchen that must have taken a good few hours to do , including a home visit obviously , sending me a few pictures of how the kitchen would look , fully itemized costings with alternative prices for different brands of electrical goods . The ones who didn't get the job got nothing for their work .
It's the LBS's fault they couldn't tell the OP that the work was unlikely to be possible. From his description, unless there was something really really strange with the bike, it should have been obvious there might be an issue.
If the shop doesn't tell you up front that, even if they can't do the job, you'll still have to pay then that's not right.
The ones who didn’t get the job got nothing for their work
Not quite the same, as I suspect your kitchen designers/salesmen would be on a wage with commission added if they make a sale.
Even if a bike shop starts a job and then discovers the work is not possible, they've given over mechanic and workshop time to it already. I'd expect to pay something, though maybe not the full whack.
Disclaimer - I've not had any work done in a bike shop in over 20 years, as I worked in them as a teen/young man, have most relevant tools, and have access to a workshop, etc. as part of my job.
However, I do see the value in a good lbs if you can't do the work yourself.
Frame is the '87 Cannondale SM400 20" that I had for sale in the classifieds after a full restore. The NOS seatpost I fitted to it would only insert about halfway into the frame and I (at 6') could just about ride it - I wanted to have the factory reaming depth increased in order to allow shorter riders to fit the bike without having to cut the seatpost shorter thus restricting it for taller riders in the future. As it's an aluminium frame, with a continuous OD seat tube and decent wall thickness, I has assumed that it was only a small lip at the end of the factory ream that was preventing deeper insertion of the seatpost. As mentioned before, even a 4" increase in reaming depth would still be well above the upper bottle boss, and well below the weld junction with the top tube.
6 of one and half a dozen of the other.
I've taken frames to be reamed/faced/stuck parts removed to the LBS before and not been charged if they've not been successful.
On the other hand, they have reamed the tube (just not as far as you wanted). And If it was me doing the work* I'd probably have refused to ream it past the original depth because you have no idea what sort of loads it'll be designed for. Usually reaming in a bike shop is just to take excess paint off as opposed to frame builders who have to make sure it's still 27.2mm or whatever after welding so understandable they might not want to do more than they're comfortable with.
*not an LBS mechanic
Frame is the ’87 Cannondale SM400 20″ that I had for sale in the classifieds after a full restore.
Is this whole thing just a hugely elaborate stealth ad? 😀
If they have a fixed size reamer (e.g. for a 27.2 post it will be around 27.3) then quite possible that step was too big and the reamer won't cut past it.
Sounds like there will be plenty of wall thickness. So you really need an adjustable reamer to start with a small cut and work up. I think the adjustment break point on the reamers I've used was around 27mm, so you might actually need two reamers depending how small the original tube bore is. And something like paraffin for the cutting fluid.
Back then they probably had very limited tube size options. So maybe the raw tubes were machined out almost to size in a lathe before welding, leaving just a bit to clean out with a reamer post-weld (hence the lip).
Whereabouts are you?
"That said, I took a bike in on Friday to see if I could get the seat tube reamed out a bit deeper to get a bit more insertion depth on the seatpost without having to cut it down..."
This has my alarm bells going already. The butt is usually thicker at the end of the tube near the join (or the high-leverage area the seatpost sits in) which makes me wonder how long your seat post is and what exactly you're trying to achieve.
Edit: just read rest of thread. Still reeks of weirdness. Personally I would be incredibly hesitant to start reaming a 31 year old frame that was renowned for cracking 30 years ago.
The NOS seatpost I fitted to it would only insert about halfway into the frame and I (at 6′) could just about ride it – I wanted to have the factory reaming depth increased in order to allow shorter riders to fit the bike without having to cut the seatpost shorter thus restricting it for taller riders in the future.
If originality was important, would it not have been better to just state that the seatpost would need cutting down (or use another) than making irreversible modifications (and potential damage) to the frame?
One thing this topic should teach anyone is never start a 'rant' topic on the interweb.
But have to agree with P....jazz - amazed a late 80's Cannondale with a 6' rider is not cracked anyway. BITD most of them my riding friends owned did (in the seat tube area) but if it isn't I certainly wouldn't be going anywhere near the seat tube with anything more involved than an Allen key. 😉
Cheers for the input - I thought I'd steered clear of "rant" territory tbh! I'm just bad at judging whether I'm overreacting to a situation, hence asking others' opinions.
The frame in question is extremely low mileage and I doubt has done more than a handful of rides in its life, but I take the point - especially considering that aluminium ages in a way that steel frames don't. I did state originally that the seatpost could be cut down if required, I just thought that extending the reamed depth was an alternative option (on my '09 Voodoo the seatpost can be inserted all the way down to the bottle bosses), but if it isn't a good idea, then no bother.
All input and comments have been appreciated, thanks 🙂
Perhaps 'rant' was the wrong word, 'complaint' maybe. 🙂
But however you word it you will always get a mixture of support/abuse/downright hostility and name calling. Best just to keep it to yourself IME!
FWIW you sound like a thoroughly mellow and reasonable chap and have taken the 'abuse' parts in a very commendable way. 😀
Thanks - I try to take a balanced view of things if I can and am happy to admit when I'm in the wrong.
For those thast asked, the seatpost has 325mm of insertable length, the current insertion depth is 190mm, and there is a further 80mm below that until the upper bottle boss. I've never had a frame with that little insertion depth on a seatpost, so naturally assumed that there was only something minor preventing the seatpost from inserting fully, and that having a reamer run down it would rectify this.
I’d have paid.
The shop still had to go to the time and effort to set up job. It was only not possible to complete because of the frame supplied. LBS generally aren’t no win no fee.
amazed a late 80’s Cannondale with a 6′ rider is not cracked anyway. BITD most of them my riding friends owned did (in the seat tube area)
Maybe the seatpost insertion wasn't deep enough ? 😉
In my lbs employee days, I would not have charged for this.
I'd hope I'd have refused to pay too, but no one enjoys these situations.
FWIW I've seen all sorts of odd things in seat tubes in terms of butting, they're not like other tubes in that a seatpost has to go in there and a manufacturer may do odd things to get an accepted size in.
LBS generally aren’t no win no fee.
A fair few are a bit though. If they take a job in and fail ( removing a siezed bottom bracket maybe) they don't charge. They loose a bit of time but profession pride means they won't charge for failure.
True. But if I brought in a frame which couldn’t be sorted due to no fault of the shop, I’d pay.
Customer: "Can you ream out this seat tube so that I can get this seat post in it?"
Shop: "OK"
After this exchange I wouldn't expect to pay anything if the job wasn't done.
Customer: "Can you ream out this seat tube so that I can get this seat post in it?"
Shop: "OK but if it turns out it's the tube butting that's stopping the post going in then it won't be possible. We can try but if it doesn't work we still have to charge you."
After this exchange the customer doesn't really have anything to complain about.
The LBS should have used this loss of £20 to learn a valuable lesson in customer communication. As it happened, they'll probably do the same thing with the next customer who comes in with an iffy job and lose another potential repeat customer.
Repeat until bankruptcy.
LBS generally aren’t no win no fee.
This for me. Assuming no parts are involved, you asked them to do some (skilled) labour for you, for which the charge was £20.
But they didn't do it .
I just work on principle if I was to supply bits which didn’t / couldn’t work then I’d expect to pay for thier wasted time. £20 - without a second thought. More and I’d have second thoughts / start sucking my teeth.
Not going to bother adding to the debate re if they should have charged (they should have) but merely comment that £20 seems way too little for this job. £20 barely gets you out of Saturday boy mending a puncture for a lazy commuter using his cub scout bicycle maintenance badge skills and a couple of spoon ends. Changing the wall thickness/internal diameter of the frame is a proper job with proper tools and has the potential to bork the bike. £20 for that would have been blinding; £20 for a poke around to see if it was possible still feels ok VFM.
cool where do you live as I will look at your bike, not do what you want and I get £20 and you get VFM
It a win win scenario for us both
