For context: I don't use LBS's if I can help it as I don't trust anyone to do work the way I want it done - I'd always rather buy the tools and do it myself so that I know it's been done right.
That said, I took a bike in on Friday to see if I could get the seat tube reamed out a bit deeper to get a bit more insertion depth on the seatpost without having to cut it down - it's not a job I'm ever likely to have to do again and the tools are a disproportionate cost in relation to the benefit, so on this occasion I was ok with having someone else do a simple, 15 minute job.
Explained what I wanted done - and crucially, why - and what I wanted the end result to be. Explained that the seatpost went in fine to the current depth, I just needed it to go deeper. No problem, booked in, got my job ticket, cost £20. Bit more than I thought, but hey, people have to earn a living.
Got a text saying work complete, popped in to pick the bike up. Turns out that the internal butting on the seat tube prevented it from being reamed any deeper but that they'd cleaned it out up to the butt (which it didn't need).
"Right, that's £20 please." says the chap behind the counter. Which I paid, because I don't like confrontation and I'm not going to be the guy who quibbles over £20, but it's left me with a very sour taste in my mouth as they clearly haven't given me the result I specifically asked for. It's also made me vow to never use a LBS again, for anything, if I can possibly avoid it.
Am I being unreasonable in being annoyed, or is this standard practice?
I don’t use LBS’s if I can help it as I don’t trust anyone to do work the way I want it done
That makes you sounds very arrogant so I am going with you being unreasonable
I dare you to post on Mumsnet about your unsatisfactory reaming.
you asked for a service, they didn't provide the service, you paid them anyway?! .. ??
You don't like confrontation!? how about basic assertiveness?
You should have said before you paid it wasn't right, by handing over the money you've kind of accepted the work.
So yes, you're being unreasonable in being annoyed.
I'm not sure what they mean by internal butting preventing this - surely the tubing is thicker at the ends than the middle so once they reach the point where the butting "starts" the tool will just hit empty space ?
Unless that's what they mean - that below a certain point the seatpost won't be in contact with the tubing any longer. Still don't see why it'd make things impossible though
You should have said when you picked it up. No point in moaning about it online now.
Id be disappointed about handing over £20 and not getting a good reaming..
you're being unreasonable
you've paid someone for their time and to use tools that you don't have, they have done the job to the best of their ability and more importantly they have not compromised the integrity of the frame, which you would have been a bit annoyed at if they had done so and it had failed at a later date, despite them giving you the result you specifically asked for
I would have asked there and then what am I paying £20.00 for ..as you have not done the work requested ?
I think the moment has been lost now..its not being confrontational n your part ..it's called not being ripped off ..grow a set !
I would like to say that I am a huge supporter of my lbs ..but then he is a mate and someone I ride with..I also don't think he would have charged just for cleaning it out ..
I’m not sure what they mean by internal butting preventing this – surely the tubing is thicker at the ends than the middle so once they reach the point where the butting “starts” the tool will just hit empty space ?
Unless that’s what they mean – that below a certain point the seatpost won’t be in contact with the tubing any longer. Still don’t see why it’d make things impossible though
My guess is they could go no further than the top tube joint.
Reaming out a seat tube beyond that which it was probably designed to doesn't seem a good idea to me but then my knowledge may not extend to the (claimed) extent of the OP's!
Poor communication by the LBS, you should probably have paid half the amount for their time and put the balance towards a new frame that will do what you want it to do.
PS: What you really need is a dropper post.
HTH
My guess is they could go no further than the top tube joint
I'd think pretty much all manufacturers would stipulate a minimum insertion point that's already BELOW the top tube joint - or am I out of touch there ?
I'd also be amazed if the seat tube outer diameter was different below the TT joint and I also can't really see why it should make a significant structural difference, reaming it to the same internal diameter as the "unsupported" tube above that joint
(err, no, I'm not an engineer :blush: )
get the seat tube reamed out a bit deeper to get a bit more insertion depth on the seatpost without having to cut it down
What is wrong with cutting it down (assuming you are not really lanky and need the full length of the tube)
I’m not going to be the guy who quibbles over £20
instead you are the person who pays £20 for them not doing what you as and then moaned on the internet about it. Which version do you think is happier? I would have haggled there and then; they deserve something for their time but not at the agreed price as they have done a different job.
you’ve paid someone for their time and to use tools that you don’t have,
They paid for a specific job that was not done and instead another job was done that did not need doing is a more truthful way of describing it
they have done the job to the best of their ability and more importantly they have not compromised the integrity of the frame,
The customer is meant to pleased they did not break the frame - that is setting the bar a bit low. Bring your bike hear we wont fix it but we wont break it either - its not going to entice me to use them.
despite them giving you the result you specifically asked for
I suggest you re read the OP as they are clear they did not do what was asked and did something that did not need doing
junky - the "specifically asked for" bit was in relation to "what if they did what you wanted and then the bike broke?"
I don’t use LBS’s if I can help it as I don’t trust anyone to do work the way I want it done
That makes you sounds very arrogant so I am going with you being unreasonable
Not sure about this I avoid taking my bikes to bike shops for this exact reason. This way if it ends up knackered I've only myself to blame
And to the op it's a bit late now you've paid tbh
I didnt think reaming a frame was even a thing. Surly it will weaken the area around the suspension pivot or whatever. Just cut yer post or get a dropper.
I can have £20 for not doing the job please?
I'm going to agree with JoB. They're not in business to not do jobs. They will have booked it in, not done some other paying work instead, taken the seatpost out, looked inside seen it was all covered in grease so they'll have cleaned that out first then got the reaming tool [s****] out, prepared it then started to take it down your tubing [wry smile]. Found that there was a solid obstruction. Taken the reaming tool [s****] out had a good look, seen that the tubing had an internal butt and then used their professional judgement to not write your frame off by just carrying on anyway. Regreased the seatpost put it back and tightened everything up to torque
it's life unfortunately. If you get a job at work that you spend some time on but it turns out to be fruitless and you can't do what the client has asked for I bet my bottom dollar that you expect to get paid for that time. If you do, why would you expect someone else not to?
Seems like a very odd request in the first place, surprised the lbs took it on to be honest.
I'm with Ol Blue Eyes.
What Dickyboy said.
If it was structurally safe to ream further down the seat tube, the frame manufacturer would have done so.
I’d imagine that given your request they’d expected to find burrs that could be tidied up with the reaming tool, but found that there was a structural reason not to proceed, in which case they did the right thing.
It's their time and expertise you're paying for innit. Shame it didn't work out, but if you hadn't paid then it would have been the LBS who lost out as they could have filled the time with another paying job instead.
As above, it may have been prudent for the LBS not to have taken the job on in the first place.
They’ve done the job you asked. Pay them. It sucks that the results of them doing that job didn’t produce the outcome you had hoped for.
What firestarter said 👍
Firstly it seems an odd request to alter the frame when lopping a little off the bottom of the seatpost would have had the same effect. Cheaper, easier, less destructive if something went awry and you could have done it yourself with a hacksaw and some sandpaper/file in about 10 minutes.
Secondly you've paid rather than telling them you're not happy so they've got no way of rectifying what you perceive as a problem.
Thirdly, You've gone to an LBS to make a frame modification, I can't imagine it a very usual request for the average bike shop mechanic. If you really want it done take the frame to somewhere like Argos (not the catalogue shop) and get them to do it.
Fourthly, they're right to err on the side of caution. The tube butting exists for a reason and removing a portion of that material would likely have voided any warranty on the frame and may well have made it less robust.
Did you mean to post this yesterday morning?
I think the issue stems (seatposts 🙂 ) from your mistrust. You didn't ask for an outcome, for which they could provide advice on how to achieve it, rather you asked for a specific job, based on your (partial, and insufficient or inaccurate) analysis. You probably did this because you mistrust them, but in the future, you'd be much better off taking the bike in and saying "I want to achieve XYZ - what's the best way of doing this?"
To which they would say "You could try and ream, but you might have issues, so I wouldn't recommend it; the best way would be to cut down the seatpost or fit a dropper"*
*Clearly, I'm making this bit up to suit my version.
EDIT : What tomhoward said
They’ve done the job you asked. Pay them. It sucks that the results of them doing that job didn’t produce the outcome you had hoped for.
Appreciate all of the replies - I'm not moaning per se, hence why I was asking if I was being unreasonable in being a little miffed. The replies from sillyoldman and aP have pushed me towards thinking that yes, I was being a touch unreasonable. It's not the shop's fault that they couldn't complete the request, and it would have taken them their time to get to that point. Calling it halves on the bill would have been nice, but it's not their job to be nice.
The seatpost is vintage NOS which is why it hasn't been cut down btw. Seat tube is straight tube, hence my assumption that it could be reamed to a greater depth than the manufacturer had as the wall thickness wouldn't be reduced to any less than at the ST/TT/SS junction, and the middle of the seat tube is relatively unstressed anyway.
Some of my old bikes had seat tubes that were butted internally, below where bottle cages were mounted or just thicker near BB.
The shop may have saved your frame failing at a later date through weakened tubes.
I think it is poor communication between shop and you, but I am also with JoB - they put time and effort in to trying to accommodate the request.
They clearly haven't done the job as requested. That may be a good thing if there's a genuine reason for the thickening*.
I imagine a REALLY good LBS might have advised this at the point of the request
AN adequate LBS might have stopped at the point this one did
A shit one might have continued - or hit a rivnut and not realised what it was ??
*(I'm not calling it butting though until someone convinces me that anybody deliberately makes tubing thicker in the middle - is this cheap plain gauge that's been milled out to a consistent diameter at the top end, maybe ?).
I wouldn't have charges the full amount but would have charged enough to cover the workshop time at the very least.
They’ve done the job you asked.
They clearly have not done it, they even explained why they have not done it [ and it was good call on their part]. I have no idea how anyone can read this and claim that.
You're not being unreasonable, you're being a dick.
Thanks for the constructive input! Very helpful 😉
They spent *time* working on your bike full stop. That is time they did not spend on another bike for another customer. That requires payment regardless of the fact that they could not do exactly what you wanted. They would not know that they could not do it until they *worked* on your bike.
While yes, you appear to have paid for nothing, you haven't. You are being unreasonable I'm afraid in my opinion.
We wouldn't have charged.
If we can't complete the job the customer asked for and we took on then there is no bill.
If you took your car to a garage to have the brakes fixed, and they gave it back to you having not fixed the brakes but wanted £200 anyway would you be happy?
If you took your car to a garage to have the brakes fixed, and they gave it back to you having not fixed the brakes but wanted £200 anyway would you be happy?
Just to push the metaphor a bit further (too far?) :
If I took the car to the garage because the brakes were bad and said "bleed the brakes please" and they attempted to bleed the brakes but discovered the master cylinder was leaking you wouldn't have a right to be annoyed that a) they charged you for working on them or b) the brakes were still bad because your initial diagnosis was inaccurate.
If, on the other had, you took the car in saying "there's something wrong with the brakes, please advise what needs doing to fix them", it's a different kettle of fish, IMHO.
IANALBS, of course 🙂
I was very clear when I dropped it off that the reason I wanted the seat tube reamed was to increase the insertion depth of the seatpost. The bottle bosses are well below where it would have needed to be reamed to, so there was no other physical obstruction that could have been reasonably expected to interfere with that.
Interesting to hear that other shops would have said "Sorry, can't be done", and not charged. Maybe if they'd said "That seems like an unusual request - we'll charge a little for our time to have a look, and the full amount if we can do the job". Standard practice in my industry generally - we quote to have a look at whether the work can be done, then the final invoice is based on whether or not it was completed.
So you aren’t a regular customer you took his time and space up so that he could discover something that you hadn’t and you think 20 quid is expensive!
im not sure the lbs will miss you much to be honest
I also don't understand where this butting was. If it was in the middle of the tube something is very wrong.
My take on it. If the OP had come in wanting a particularly rare and exotic set of brakes bled and, once the mechanic started the job, he discovered that this particular set of brakes needs a particular brand of mineral oil and anything else will destroy the brakes then I would expect the shop to return the bike and not charge anything. The customer hasn't gotten the service they asked for and the shop has used some time but crucially has gained the knowledge that they can't service this set of brakes and any future customers can be told this straight away without wasting any workshop time.
In this case, the OP has not gotten what they asked for and had to pay £20 for the privilege. The LBS has gained knowledge (what knowledge I don't know because I don't understand how a tube can be butted in the middle) and been paid £20 on top of that.
Knowledge and experience is a very important commodity for a bike shop because, when it comes down to, it that is what the customer is paying for.
LBS out of line I reckon.
I wouldn't have paid them tbh but equally, if I did cave and pay, I wouldn't feel terrible about it- they've not ripped you off, it's basically a racing incident. Don't waste any more thought over it, is what I'd recommend.
That requires payment regardless of the fact that they could not do exactly what you wanted.
This is true but i would be a tad reluctant to pay the same price and pay for a task I never asked them to do and did not need doing. they do of course deserve paying as they had to take it apart to see they could not do what was asked of them and the work that was quoted.
Can’t believe anyone would take this job on. Do it wrong and you ruin a frame, do it right and get paid pennies.
just been learning about bulge butted seat tubes - if that's what the OP's bike has, then I can imagine that reaming might be catastrophic
I think at the very least the LBS owes the OP a proper explanation as to why the job couldn't be done. Maybe they gave him one and he just hasn't been able to describe it to us but from the way he's told it so far it makes no sense. Who butts the middle of a tube?
