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The Law is full of numbers for things that are a bit whack, like how fast a standard person can cross a road as a limit on minimum controlled crossing timings (which is also a pretty whack number as anyone with mobility issues might well struggle to make it in the specific time and therefore find roads they are unable to cross). This is probably one of those things. I guess there’s also a concern that since bicycles may be used in places where pedestrians are present they need to be limited to something fairly low…
A route I don't think we should go down, as mentioned I think that's what's standing in the way of a proper revolution to change how our roads look entirely.
vincienup
Subscriber
On the point of excepting ‘high powered’ ebikes from type approval, I see the argument regarding getting a paradigm shift to large numbers of single rider ebikes into circulation as regular transport in place of bigger vehicles, but the whole point of type approval is to ensure stuff going on the road in public isn’t dangerous to everyone anywhere near it (or no more dangerous than has been agreed is OK). That’s like lifting all Planning restrictions to solve the housing crisis. It might possibly work, but there would be a lot of collateral cost to pick up elsewhere.
I think your comparison is a little overly hysterical. But I'm all for doing a studies on the impact allow free reign on say 1000w(peak) 30mph machines would have.
As I mentioned above, these machines should be considered in transport strategy for the next 20 years. I don't really think they currently are.
The difference between Cars on roads with speed limits and de-restricted eBikes on trails is there aren't and there won't be speed limit signs on bridleways/trails.
So to manage the risk you limit the assisted speed of eBike. It's not perfect but it's something.
The best we can probably do is everybody pluck something out of there arse and see if we have some sort of consensus as to what a reasonable speed for a motorised vehicle on a trail of mostly leg powered vehicles should be.
Ok, i’ll play..
1250w max output and 31mph max speed.
That is directly out of my arse, since I don’t own one and unlikely to own one.
All I would like to see is a similarity between e-bikes and mopeds. Capabilities are similar, capacities are similar, usage not so much because of location specific environments. But similarities are already being mooted one here and elsewhere.
If those proposals were adopted the caveat would be User Tests of capability and licensing and insurance all of which is not unreasonable.
The issues e-bike modification has is they’re seen as an easy way to flout any current law, and that the law is cloaked in unachievable prosecution(s) by a force I’ll equipped to monitor.
Whilst no one monitors or prosecutes, e-bikes will continue to be modified and manufacturers will continue to push the outputs and capabilities of the bikes.
Wheelie anyone?
🤷♂️
If you look at traffic flow, much of congestion is actually caused by the result of vehicles travelling at wildly different speeds not too many vehicles and not enough road as is usually assumed.
Allowing everything to travel as fast or slow as it liked would be a chaotic disaster, and is exactly why the industry is heading for what is termed ‘self driving cars’ although quite possibly the end of widespread private car ownership too. Allowing vehicles to operate at whatever speed their operator likes is something that has been shown to work in Autobahn, but in very specific circumstances. Bicycles are in a completely different category, simply because there is no practical way to prevent them being used by whoever can get in the saddle. That opens up huge issues all over the place that just don’t go away unless we are going down the route of clear registration marks at the very least and probably rider skills qualifications too and that inevitably leads us back to where we started.
Going fast is fun, we all get that but it’s also a problem in the wrong place. Restrictions on all ebikes is a pretty blunt tool, but in the present situation I can see why it’s the decision that’s been taken. It’s something I agree could change, but not without some form of price that in effect forces riders to self moderate and as electric motorbikes exist already and have the sort of things that would obviously be required for ebikes that were not limited I’m not entirely sure I see the point to be honest. About all you’d possibly get would be a slightly higher restriction without the changes, and people would simply ignore that too.
It's working to the lowest common denominator, which is a rubbish way of dealing with something.. Why not just put up speed limits?
I also wonder why people continue to conflate sub 1000w(peak) ebikes with mopeds(sub 4000w), and 125s(sub 11000w).
They aren't the same thing, the are much less powerful than the existing categories are designed for.
So they shouldn't have to work under the same rules, they are a different kettle of fish all together and should be considered differently. Conflating them is disingenuous, or just not understanding that they are an entirely different category.
vincienup
Subscriber
If you look at traffic flow, much of congestion is actually caused by the result of vehicles travelling at wildly different speeds not too many vehicles and not enough road as is usually assumed.
If you were to work towards say a 50% reduction of traffic(not impossible, look at the netherlands) That then gives you alot more scope for re-sculpting the existing road network in the future.
Allowing vehicles to operate at whatever speed their operator likes is something that has been shown to work in Autobahn
And Northern Territories, Australia, too.
😆
It’s working to the lowest common denominator, which is a rubbish way of dealing with something.. Why not just put up speed limits?
I'm not sure if you're trolling or just a bit simple but I'll bite.
Well... there are <span style="font-size: 0.8rem;">32,000</span>km of bridleways in the UK. How do you decide how fast you can go? Do you make it 10mph for some sections and 20 for others, like on the roads or do you put a blanket 15mph limit on all bridleways?
If you extrapolate the rights of way to the rest of the EU (as UK legislation was harmonised with EU law EN15194 in April 2015) then the "just put up speed limit sign argument" starts to get a bit silly.
if you are including bridleways, then it's you that's making the argument silly.
Looking at the discussion now, I think an issue is that I had offroad e-bikes in mind when making my previous comments, in response to rOcKeTdOg commenting about the derestricted, full body armour, 30 mph canal towpath warrior. That's just ****ing irresponsible and if you would advocate that bikebouy I think you're mad.
If we are talking e-bikes on the road, that's a different question, the frame of reference isn't pedestrians and leg-power cyclists anymore.
And the 15.5mph limit is entirely silly when it’s a limit that non powered cyclists regularly exceed with ease. Why is that limit is set lower than people can cycle?
I think you are overrating the average cyclist.
A quick look gives an average speed in Copenhagen of 9.6mph.
15mph would generally require some training to achieve and maintain for any period of time. Not huge amounts of training but some.
Another thing to bear in mind is for shared infrastructure it is recommended for those people doing those speeds to use the road instead.
Fair do's I take that point.
I think Copenhagen style infrastructure here is wishful thinking though, so allowing bicycles to compete on a more level playing field on the roads would be wise. Outside of I guess London?, cycle infrastructure is token at best.
I certainly feel safer on the road on an ebike than I do on a normal bike.
I think ebikes, with some adjustment, could help allow bikes and cars to exist within the same overall infrastructure, as tbh, I've largely given up in the UK/Scotland implementing anything of use in regards to decent cycle infrastructure.
I'm all for ebikes taking over the roads, if that could happen, then the rules could change to suit the bikes more than the cars. That's a numbers game though.
That’s just ****ing irresponsible and if you would advocate that bikebouy I think you’re mad.
If we are talking e-bikes on the road, that’s a different question, the frame of reference isn’t pedestrians and leg-power cyclists anymore.
I am mad.
I really am.
I’m on here arguing about a two wheel thingy that I’m never going to own, well I say never but never might be tomorrow or in 20yrs time 🤷♂️
We all encounter “warriors” be it on the road or bridleway or in the playpark or scooter track, or indeed cycle lane.
S’pose the difference here is maybe you think everything “off-road” includes cycle paths and lanes, when in reality the User rarely differentiates and simply uses one or the other with the single thought process of “I want to get there, this is the path of least resistance”
I do think mopeds and e-bikes should be considered the “same thing” as currently they can propel unaided at a speed greater than human walking or running. Same as e-scooters.
They are just methods of transportation with the ability to navigate off and on road and deliver the user at a place different to the one they started at..
Sort of.
I would just change the law now before it all becomes far too confusing to the average human mind, and then Users could get used to “this does this, can go there and not there”
If you want an example of a warrior, I can quote myself on that front when I used to use Lea Valley Canal towpath from Canary Wharf to Walthamstow... I’d flat chat it as a training run on my CXer and ave speeds far greater than walking or running.
i think having an off road ebike = unrestricted and treated like a motorbike.
on road ebike = moped.
Cars aren’t restricted to 70mph, and don’t automatically restrict themselves to 60/40/30/20mph in the required zones.
Not yet, but we can only hope for such a fundamentally sensible thing to come to pass.
Subscriber
i think having an off road ebike = unrestricted and treated like a motorbike.on road ebike = moped.
Not what the law says and that is not going to be very useful for the greening of transport
There is no issue at all with legal ebikes. NOne.
in some ways, this is inevitable rabbit hole that ebikes opened up.
"Human powered" devices are always fundamentally limited by the human powering them. Even if your Sir Braders, realistically you're not going to be tearing round at 50 mph on the back wheel down the highstreet due to an intrinsic lack of power. Once "assisted" bikes arrived, well, now we have shades of grey. What speed, power, or any other metric, is or is not acceptable or legal becomes pretty much entirely arbitrary. And of course, with all complex modern devices, the act of checking for compliance becomes tricky as well.
if you are including bridleways, then it’s you that’s making the argument silly.
If you are suggesting that eBikes will be limited to just trail centres then you're being very very silly.
Trail centre "speeding" probably should be the least of our concern access wise. I'd be way more concerned if I was the likes of OpenMTB (as a UK example) about user conflict on bridleways. Imagine a group of de-restricted ebikers (at say 25MPH) flying up behind a bunch of horses on a Peak District bridleway. It probably won't end well and some Land managers will use it as an excuse to downgrade access.
As for eBikes on the road, then crack on, un-restrict them. One less car and all that. But don't be surprised when the powers that be start asking for them to be insured, maybe taxed and have number plates, like, you know, a scooter...
Once “assisted” bikes arrived, well, now we have shades of grey.
NO we don't. Its completely black and white. less than 250 w power, power assist cuts out at 15.5mph
How are you going to differentiate between an ebike for the road and one for off road? Where does a fat tyred CX bike sit for example? Is that restricted or not?
Where does a fat tyred CX bike sit for example? Is that restricted or not?
Can we just burn those things to clear the issue up? 😉
You're right though, gotta be one rule for all. I'm absolutely in favour of faster ebikes for utility transport (ie. mainly road), but not sure what the implications would be for off-road.
less than 250 w power, power assist cuts out at 15.5mph
...until you plug a USB stick in it.
That and the fact you can buy derestricted electric moto-x bikes that have pedals....it gets very murky indeed.
Cha****ng - there is another category used in some european countries - its a 30 mph pedelec. You have to be 18 not 14 and I think helmets compulsory
Personally I think they should be able to do 20 mph to keep up better in urban traffic for the ones we have. trouble with that is you then are going much faster than non ebikes on bike paths
Subscriber
less than 250 w power, power assist cuts out at 15.5mph
…until you plug a USB stick in it.
That and the fact you can buy derestricted electric moto-x bikes that have pedals….it gets very murky indeed.
~Still black and white - both those things you mention are illegal.
I'd like to see an electric moto cross bike with pedals - lets see one please.
Come across those Bultacos at Dyfi and Rivington, didn't like seeing them at the latter as they're gonna damage the peat-based trails - but they weren't nearly as annoying as the motorbikes we had up there for a while after the fire. The noise those ****ers make is half the problem to me.
Cha****ng – there is another category used in some european countries – its a 30 mph pedelec. You have to be 18 not 14 and I think helmets compulsory
Yep, vaguely aware of those. I'd probably get one for my 20 mile journey into central Manc.
I’m on here arguing about a two wheel thingy that I’m never going to own, well I say never but never might be tomorrow or in 20yrs time 🤷♂️
Indeed, me too 🙂
And I would consider my own behaviour on bridleways as occasionally idiotic, despite my lack of electric motor, so I also realise the hypocrisy of my opinion on all of this.
I do think mopeds and e-bikes should be considered the “same thing” as currently they can propel unaided at a speed greater than human walking or running. Same as e-scooters.
Agree there too. So would that mean no such e-bikes on bridleways? I think BillOddie is spot on.
It is very tricky. The ideal would be e-bikes that can hit 30 mph or something on the road but are automatically restricted to <20mph when they venture into areas where motorised vehicles aren't allowed. Basically impossible to enforce of course, without some state monitored hybrid of Big Brother and Strava...
Also, it's a bit pathetic how pleased with themselves some fellas seem when they de-restrict their e-bikes.
Do we think upping the limiter to 20mph or so would negate the need for the majority of people doing it? Obviously some ****s would still be ****s, but there must be a genuine "problem" to be solved behind it?
I think Copenhagen style infrastructure here is wishful thinking though, so allowing bicycles to compete on a more level playing field on the roads would be wise. Outside of I guess London?, cycle infrastructure is token at best.
I certainly feel safer on the road on an ebike than I do on a normal bike.
I think ebikes, with some adjustment, could help allow bikes and cars to exist within the same overall infrastructure, as tbh, I’ve largely given up in the UK/Scotland implementing anything of use in regards to decent cycle infrastructure.
I’m all for ebikes taking over the roads, if that could happen, then the rules could change to suit the bikes more than the cars. That’s a numbers game though.
You've basically just made the case for motorbikes.
Which is fine, but I wouldn't want to share canal towpaths and bridleways with motorbikes, electric or otherwise.
15.5mph isn't entirely arbitrary, as other have said trying to average that, even with 23mm tyres on the road takes a modicum of effort and training. It's the average speed in most Sunday club runs!
And motor vehicles are speed restricted in a very similar way. On 2 wheels it's 31mph until you hit 17 (and yes, just like e-bikes you can exceed that long downhill with a tailwind etc).
tjagain
Its completely black and white. less than 250 w power
That bit isn't black and white at all, the law says nothing about peak power(edit: well it does stipulate 48v actually).
250w continuous, just means a motor that can run at 250w forever without overheating and breaking. (I'm pretty sure it's fairly easy to underrate motors too, think that standard will be more about verifying the lower level rather than the upper.)
It's says nothing about using a 250w rated motor, attaching a battery capable of making that motor output more power.
Example.
Peak power is defined by volts x amps. Given most batteries are 36v, the motors should be mostly be limited to 6.9volts. That pretty much isn't the case with any decent ebike.
example, if the turbo levo battery runs at 36v, these guys measure 660w continuous. So basically, that's running at 18v. All on a "250w" continuous rated motor.
I think most folk on here understand the difference between Warriors on Bridleways and just normal average Joe who doesn’t understand what one is.
And yet, at a guess (me included) are fairly capable of understanding others use of whatever “path” we are on and make rational decisions based on speed and moving/non-moving objects.
But we aren’t really like most people. We are different, and we’ve become blasé to that fact. The Law doesn’t differentiate, it’s applied across all humans.. it has to be.
Its well known that today we all face a crisis of impending doom on Climate Change and moving humans from one place to another is at the forefront of any political decisions.
If we are to accommodate logical thinking, then e-bikes become a solution rather than a problem and we might as well accommodate them and manage the current Law that is built as a restriction and bring that up to date.
Unrestricting is a fact, misuse of current Type Approval is a fact... why not accept it and change the type approval and Law that governs them.
🤷♂️
thisisnotaspoon
You’ve basically just made the case for motorbikes.
Perhaps, but I'm also arguing there's not realy any need for licensing, motorcycle helmets, number plates etc, for sub 1000w(peak) ebikes.
Tbh I'm all I'm really just arguing for is a slight increase in max speed from current laws. which is technically, 15.5+10%(supposedly, I'd need to verify that) or 17.05mph in the uk.
Do you make it 10mph for some sections and 20 for others, like on the roads or do you put a blanket 15mph limit on all bridleways?
Or just ban E-mtb's from bridleways all together ? I know some people would flout the law just like they flout just every other one, but it would be a start. I'd let e-bikes on the road evolve with a bit more power to make them a usefull transport alternative.
taxi25
Or just ban E-mtb’s from bridleways all together ?
I do tend to forget, that on here we often have to deal with the "this is my baw and you're no playing" kinna attitude.
Where as up here, we just say aye, you want a game, jump in! 😆
I do tend to forget, that on here we often have to deal with the “this is my baw and you’re no playing” kinna attitude.
Where as up here, we just say aye, you want a game, jump in!
Scotland?
If the powers that be decide eBikes are "motorised vehicle" (which has happened in the US already) then you don't get to enjoy those lovely access rights on an eBike.
Just get a motorbike if you want to go that fast..
30mph uphill is surely just geex riding home with a flat battery?
250w continuous in that context means 250W RMS not peak.
RMS (root mean square) is the standard for deciding the achievable real output of something that’s by nature quite peaky. In rule of thumb land it’s .707 times Peak. Obviously you’d need to design in suitable heat management etc if you intended to operate for protracted periods, witness old 125’s that could basically do one hour or so hops at dual carriageway national speed limit zone friendly speeds between cooling off sessions.
Also, forget who touched on it, but actual speed limitations very much are coming to private motor vehicles over the next decade or so, closely followed by the autonomous vehicle. As my dev friends like to say, most transport problems exist in meatspace. Taking operators out of the picture solves a lot of problems.
I'm in favour of the speed limit on cycle paths solution since that applies to all people equally and is how the rest of our roads work. There's a chunk of the highway code that says "if there's no signposts assume it's 30mph" so just add "and if it's a dirt road not wide enough for a car assume 15mph" and you've covered all the roads ever with no signage changes. Then you allow mopeds on the cycle paths so long as they stick to the speed limit.
Enforcement is a problem but if we don't spend any money maintaining the cycle paths that problem solves itself, they become riddled with potholes, nature's speed bump.
People wanting more laws and less freedom because of ebikes, sad sad folk tbh
People wanting more laws and less freedom because of ebikes, sad sad folk tbh
That's not my version of freedom.
It just means an idiot can do what they want.
It's all pointless.
I see folk driving like ****ing idiots every day, never any cops around.