[Closed] All-road bike - any ideas? Latest Coptic Escapade?

Or maybe something like a Brother Mehteh or stroma?

Have you thought about the Kepler? its pretty much brothers do it all road bike.

There's a fair few comments on the thread I started last weekend which may or may not help.

Here

What I'm finding, other than reaching a new level of prevarication, on this (not helped by quite fancying buying a rigid On One Whippet for £999 instead/as well - "thanks" whoever posted that 😂 ) is that there really isn't much stock about at the minute.

A lot of stuff is saying Spring so the available now options at my price point seem to be a Planet X or about three different things locally none of which is so good I just have to have it.

Why would an Escapade by livelier than a Croix De Fer?

Actually a question. I quite fancy an Escapade don't own a Croix De Fer

Ribble CGR
I’ve got one and it’s brilliant apart from the crappy sram apex groupset. So get a shimano build and it’ll be great!

Yeah looks like there's not much available at the moment but prepared to wait a few months to get the right frame.

I'll definitely check out the Ribble CGR.

On the differences between the croix de fer and the Escapade, the croix de fer frameset is listed at 3.9kg which seems crazy heavy whereas I think I saw the Escapade frame is approx 2kg and the fork is 550g so fairly big difference there.

Any other thoughts on the new Escapade or similar?

Latest Coptic Escapade?

Probably a bit orthodox for me.

I have an older Escapade with the steel fork. I think it's a nicer frame than they get credit for, maybe because it's not 853 or whatever, and maybe because they are mainly an MTB company. Anyway it has a neat ovalised top tube like the Fairlights, and IIRC frame weight was ~2kg for my large. Even the steel fork was ~900g which is pretty good going.

I don't have anything pure roadie to compare it to but I got it for lightweight touring to avoid a tank-like Surly or CdF. I'd imagine it's light and lively compared to them, but that is obviously relative!

I had a CGR 725 (although I use 650b x 47 due to mixing a fair amount of gravel in).

That was a nice bike but mine was stolen after a few months. I thought about what I’d change / make ideal and got the Surly Midnight Special. Not the lightest but rides lively and I’m a massive fan of it.

the croix de fer frameset is listed at 3.9kg

Pretty sure I read somewhere the fork on the Croix de fer is just over 1.5kg. Swap it out for decent carbon and you'd probably just squeeze in under 3kg. The frame is heavy, which I don't understand. It's 725 reynolds, I'm positive somewhere it's claimed to have .7-.4-.7 wall thickness.

Frame weights are very optimistic from manufacturers. Are steel frames as lively as they used to be?

But I doubt any steel road fork is 1.5kg, and even replacing it isn't going to make the frame ride any different.

martinhutch

Full Member

Latest Coptic Escapade?

Probably a bit orthodox for me.

It's all Greek to me too.

Genesis weirdly quote frame weights as frame, uncut fork, seatclamp, headset, and thru axles (where applicable) - an honest way to do it I guess, but makes them look heavier vs others than they are as no-one else quotes that way. Complete bike weights are more comparable.

So I think in the end the main thing about the cdf is the steel fork. I'd forgotten that the Escapade was carbon fork. The cdf might be slightly thicker steel? I know James who designed the first one said that the 725 was pointless as the wall thickness couldn't be reduced for the stronger steel

But I doubt any steel road fork is 1.5kg, and even replacing it isn’t going to make the frame ride any different.

I was surprised. I did find a reference for a pre-2015 fork which is not the same as the current one. That was weighed by the owner (make of it what you will) at 1300g, cut etc. So uncut, heftier tubing somewhere and 1.5 is completely possible. The surly fork for the 26" trucker is 1.25kg!

Changing the fork can change the way a bike rides completely.

@cynic-al fork on my Raleigh Maverick (2015) is 1.5kg. Steel.

Genesis weirdly quote frame weights as frame, uncut fork, seatclamp, headset, and thru axles (where applicable) – an honest way to do it I guess, but makes them look heavier vs others than they are as no-one else quotes that way.

It's brave but honest. Firstly it's presumably the weight of the thing on the box they send you. Secondly when you build build it it will with weigh added they sent you plus what you added during the build

From memory any chance of "steel feel" went out the window CE testing

Well modern steel forjs are heavier than I thought.

Changing the fork can change the way a bike rides completely.

It's possible for sure but losing weight on a road bike fork isn't likely IME.

It’s brave but honest

If it's accurate and honest. I've seen manufacturers being optimistic by 20%, I wouldn't trust them unless I knew I could.

It’s accurate. The weights are the QC’d first production deliveries that arrive into stock. Size medium.

Others weigh in some cases unpainted XS frames stripped of anything that can be removed (hangers, cable guides etc).

I had a Poprad. 4 years ago I changed it for an Escapade. It's the best bike I've ever owned. I use it for road rides, commuting, gravel stuff and touring. I can't see me changing it any time soon.

It’s accurate. The weights are the QC’d first production deliveries that arrive into stock. Size medium.

Source?

Others weigh in some cases unpainted XS frames stripped of anything that can be removed (hangers, cable guides etc).

That would account for 20% on a steel road frame set? Only additional part being a seat collar. I can't see it. But I will have a think (58cm Salsa road bike was the instance).

I know the guys who QC the product - I sell the product.

On the other part, I wasn’t suggesting that a seatclamp would account for 20% of the weight, but simply pointing out ways in which some brands are brazenly dishonest.

Well modern steel forjs are heavier than I thought.

I think the types of forks you'd find in a Croix de fer are very different to what I'd call road forks. Pretty sure the steel forks on my old road bike are about half that weight. They aren't disc of course.

Cheers SOM. I'm trying to work out if tubing/paint could account for 20% going from XS to L.

Yeah cromollyolly, I get that, but even 90s steel MTB forks were <1kg iirc.

So I think in the end the main thing about the cdf is the steel fork. I’d forgotten that the Escapade was carbon fork

Post 2018, yes. Two different carbon forks no less. An ally steerer version and a full carbon.

know James who designed the first one said that the 725 was pointless as the wall thickness couldn’t be reduced for the stronger steel

@jameso of this parish? I didn't know he designed the first one. He'd probably be able to tell us why mpso many modern steel bikes feel full.

As hard as the reviewers try to not say it, if you read between the lines it seems true.
Although the Escapade seems, on balance, a bit livelier than many. They also claim heat treated tubes iirc. Don't know if it's the same sort of heat treatment 725 gets.

Oddly the older fugio also had a rep for being a bit livelier. It's not 725 but it does have a carbon fork.

Cheers SOM. I’m trying to work out if tubing/paint could account for 20% going from XS to L.

Very much doubt it unless the same butt profile is used on all frame sizes leaving larger sizes with elongated thick wall sections. Even then it seems a stretch.

Yeah cromollyolly, I get that, but even 90s steel MTB forks were <1kg iirc.

Hmm. Interesting. Don't have any around anymore to weigh. They would be shorter or course, by around 50mm minimum. Probably narrower crown too.

Oddly the older fugio also had a rep for being a bit livelier. It’s not 725 but it does have a carbon fork.

Older Fugio weren’t 725 and had a carbon fork with Alu steerer. 2020 and 2021 versions are 725 for top end bike and Frameset, and all use full carbon fork now.

Yeah cromollyolly, I get that, but even 90s steel MTB forks were <1kg iirc.

They didn’t have disc mounts nor have to pass today’s more rigorous testing though.

Cheers SOM. I’m trying to work out if tubing/paint could account for 20% going from XS to L.

Well steer tube weighs on average just over a gram per km for a 1 1/8 and it might be as much as 100mm longer for xl vs xs. So that's 110-130 grams.

Paul Brodie, who got his start building frames in the early mtb days has a bunch of videos on frame building. I think he says in one of them that they would put a full length butt at the headtube for strength and then adjust the length at the seat tube. So longer bikes will have relatively more butt on the tubing.

Older Fugio weren’t 725 and had a carbon fork with Alu steerer. 2

That's what I was driving at - they reportedly had a livelier ride than the CdF, even though they didn't have the 'better' 725 tubing. The lighter fork would have helped some, but there must be something else going on. At lot of people report the modern steel gravel/adventure bikes fell 'dull'

CDF 50 is 853 with full carbon fork (400g) that still has anything cage mounts etc etc.

'Lively' - meaning what, springy, or light-steering and short wheelbase?

James who designed the first one said that the 725 was pointless as the wall thickness couldn’t be reduced for the stronger steel

I was wrong or making a point badly if I did. Not pointless, just more about label and sales appeal than ride feel benefits which would be very subtle at best. The Equibilbrium and CdF were crmo (520) originally as I just like crmo, it's simple low-cost stuff that can make a great frame. A move to 725 would have changed so little eg 0.1mm less wall thickness on the DT, that's all. About 50-60g difference in that tube. With some fine tuning of butting lengths maybe 70g. All other tubes would have been the same dims, the TT could have gone thinner wall but ime they get dent prone. We did it after a few years as people wanted a higher number as it was obviously better.
That's all not saying 725 or 853 is pointless, just that without the strength needs of a long fork or the aim of very lightweight at a £ cost and considering a frame may be built to a stiffness level meaning smaller OD tubes aren't as desirable even if the material allows it within testing, there's not as much difference to be had as some might think.

they reportedly had a livelier ride than the CdF, even though they didn’t have the ‘better’ 725 tubing

Fugio V1 was a CX geometry wasn't it, based on the old Vapour Al CX bike? The CdF was a touch more laid back with a 71.5 HTA and 45mm offset.

From memory any chance of “steel feel” went out the window CE testing

If 'steel feel' is flex, you could have a less stiff frame and pass the tests but stiffer tubes worked with MTB trends for big forks and small stems and roadies complain about lost power compared to carbon bikes (which is imho BS really unless you have a mean sprint). Probably a bit of a rep from some beefy post-CEN frames as well as trends changing generally.

One other loosely related point. Flex in a steel frame is related to the rider.

I remember riding a V1 Escapade that was post-CEN I think. Skinny tubes and very light, was 'lively' for sure - at the time I didn't like it tbh, I thought it was too flexible and verging on wobbly. Back then I liked how the Day One SS and CdF tube dimensions felt like they had some give and spring when I pushed the bike hard (and coped with a load if you were a tourer) but was otherwise fairly stiff. I was 15 years or more younger and stronger then and charging around the woods on a SS CX bike for 3 hours seemed perfectly sensible.

More recently I've been really enjoying an old Colnago and had a skinny lugged steel audax frame made from trad tube sizes. The flex in those older style bikes is really nice, it suits a steadier power from a generally fitter but less frantic rider. I don't see these flexy steel frames as wobbly as I'm probably riding them more smoothly.

I'm the same height/weight etc but my tastes have changed, my riding attitude has changed and how I judge frame flex/spring has changed. Yet I still enjoy my steel Jones 10 years on, it's as stiff as a BMX, a hooligan of a rigid bike.

Latest Coptic Escapade?

Probably a bit orthodox for me.

I'm waiting until they release their new model - the monk.

*. this is a joke - the bike pictured above is here: Monk Bike Works - which actually looks like a good option for the OP.

Fugio V1 was a CX geometry wasn’t it, based on the old Vapour Al CX bike? The CdF was a touch more laid back with a 71.5 HTA and 45mm offset.

I didn't know you were responsible for the CdF. Congrats it's famous. Also it's all your fault that it so well regarded there's no such thing as a bargain frameset. Either used or new.

I'd always assumed that the bike reviews would distinguish between the 'quickness' that results from geo and the 'dull/lively" feel of the frame. I've always assumed they mean spring in the frame. Having said that they often talk about pedalling feel which I would have thought was about weight, mostly

The 2020 and prior Fugio and Cdf were incredibly similar - Fugio was 0.5 degrees slacker in the 2 vertical tubes.

Having owned a number of midrange steel road and cyclocross bikes, my advice would be proceed with caution. There was only one that stood out, the rest were heavy, dull and lifeless. On that basis, I'd pick something like a Trek Crockett or Checkpoint ALR. I used a Checkpoint as a stand-in for several months, it was superb - comfortable, fast and spritely. The Crockett looks just as good, and is even lighter, but it forgoes rack mounts I think.

All in all OP, the Escapade looks like your best bet. Good tube spec, a geometry that would still be a great winter / audax road bike on 28Cs, not a slackened-off gravel bike that's too close to monstercross. For the use you're describing I don't think you'll find better.

Ive got one of the latest Escapades and its amazing bike for poor quality roads in the winter. Not an expert in road bikes but it feels light, comfortable and stable

The Ragley Trig might fit the bill too. Never ridden one but it seems well regarded.

Loads of great info there and lots to consider - thanks guys!
Great to get some info from current owners and a better idea on the state of production steel frames at the moment.
Got some thinking to do as I haven't quite decided if something a bit more Roady might work better but the Escapade is definitely the front runner for now - seems ideal!