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The drag isn't from seals, it's from meshing cogs, which you get in a planetary gear arrangement in most IGHs.
I've designed, in my head, a double speed system with a chain on each side of the bike, and the hub just flips over internally when you want. One gear for hills one for everything else. And no planetary gears so still efficient.
No problems with water penetration in several igh over many many years usage
Even the Rohloff is not expensive - in the ten years or so i have run it its paid back its initial cost in cheaper drivetrain maintenance. Everything last longer and you replace one cheap rear sprocket instead of several cassettes
Yes you have to accept a different set of compromises but the joy in having something that works, works silently and lasts for ever is great
Better still, somebody copy the Schlumpf drive and make it enduro tough and half the price
Engineering isn't magic. Any system of gears needs precision machining of every part, so you require expensive equipment and it's very difficult to reduce costs. Saying that you'd buy something if it was half the price and performed better is meaningless because you are saying that it would be great if things could be done by magic.
Utter rubbish. Everything on a mountain bike was "magic" before it was developed.
Engineering limitations cannot be altered tho. Gears are heavy and need precise machining and epicyclics create drag
but the joy in having something that works, works silently and lasts for ever is great
As well as my derailleur set up? I doubt it.
Engineering limitations cannot be altered tho. Gears are heavy and need precise machining and epicyclics create drag
This is basically the nub of it, efficiency trumps having a sealed box/hub full of gears thats easier to keep clean.
Considering the measley avg ~0.25hp your standard human will provide, efficient drive is still a priority, the closest we've ever come to the "Magic box" was probably the RN01 which was basically a mech in a box.
I still think some variation on that concept has more promise, but the cycling world still has quite a lob on for rohloff/Alfine hubs and pinion boxes...
Nickc. Better. No dropped chains or mishifts. Can change gear when stationary silent running
Engineering isn’t magic. Any system of gears needs precision machining of every part, so you require expensive equipment and it’s very difficult to reduce costs. Saying that you’d buy something if it was half the price and performed better is meaningless because you are saying that it would be great if things could be done by magic.
The Schlumpf drive is over £500: building a two speed chainset for half that price does not require magic
Using the puffer as a baseline for the how reliable mechs are is silly, muddy, frozen, tired gear changes, it's a fairly non standard measuring stick.
I've MTB'd since 2003, a relative newbie, and have lost a rear mech (or indeed hanger) in less than 5 occasions I'd say, I can only recall 2, but I'm sure there's been a couple more.
I think that's fairly reliable.
I’ve MTB’d since 2003, a relative newbie, and have lost a rear mech (or indeed hanger) in less than 5 occasions I’d say, I can only recall 2, but I’m sure there’s been a couple more.
I've been MTBing since 1990, and, as far as I can remember, never lost a rear mech.
BUT, I still want there to be decent alternatives, and I still have a love for alternative drivetrains.
It's about choice for me.
I love to fettle, and IGHs, gearboxes, etc. tick certain boxes that interest me more than a derailleur does.
I still run a 'normal' geared set-up on a couple of bikes though, as it makes sense on those particular bikes and their intended use.
The Schlumpf drive is over £500: building a two speed chainset for half that price does not require magic
If you think it can be done and there's a market for it, why haven't you done it?
Nickc. Better. No dropped chains or mishifts. Can change gear when stationary silent running
So, the sole advantage is changing gear while stationary, while. I'll admit; sounds cool for the couple of occasions up some techy climbs, my drivetarin has all the same benefits, I can't remember that last time I dropped a chain, my system doesn't mishift, and it's completely silent, and this on a 12 speed SRAM. Modern systems are utterly reliable, and surprising longer lasting that the 8/9/10 speed systems I've run in the past.
Sorry dude - derailleur systems are not silent. You get the noise of the chain threading thru the jockey wheels. You don't notice it until you ride and IGH bike when the silence is noticeable.
The other main advantage is the longevity including that of your chains and sprockets. You are talking one chain every few thousand miles rather than a chain and cassette every thousand or so
the main disadvantage is a very small amount of drag and clunkier gearshifts. I'll swap that for the advantages every day
sorry - the rohloff does whirr a bit in the lower 7 gears. the alfine and the SA are totally silent
Advantage of SS or IGH to me is the lack of maintenance time needed plus a general simplicity in the ride that I like enough to outweigh the disadvantages of no/fewer gears.
12 SRAM in particular has got a good durability rep though. And mech systems do keep going in a suprising amount of filth but eventually get overwhelmed (it can take a long ride to do that, rides I don't do that often). I don't have the time / CBA to clean it after pretty much every ride though and if I don't things deteriorate rapidly.
Eg, my gravel bike goes off-road maybe 10-15% of the distance ridden in winter and that's ok for ride:maintenance ratio on a 2x10. My SS MTB gets used more often in worse conditions so some sort of mech-less system appeals. Both have pros and cons, both match the ride needs well.
IGHs sit somewhere in the middle yet currently don't cover enough advantages generally to swing it for me - Alfine 8 was pretty good but the weight distribution felt a bit odd on an MTB. Rohloff is more than I need. Nexus 7 on my city bike has been great and Nexus 3 always feels nicely direct. Some sort of minimal MTB IGH would get my £ as an experiment, it might need a clean or oil dip 1-2x a year but I'm replacing bearings in my Hope SS hub 1-2x a year anyway.
Sorry dude – derailleur systems are not silent.
If I could be bothered, I'd go out and record my 18month old XO1 and let you hear just how quiet they are nowadays. But trust me, set up properly they're just as silent as hubs now. Times have moved on since you last used them no doubt.
NOpe -I have a modern derailleur setup on one bike - it whirrs like the roholff and in all gears. You just do not notice because you are used to it. The chain running over the jockey wheels makes a noise - it has to
If the noise level from either system is coming up as a pro or con the argument is getting very thin.
good point but it is one of the things I like . I like silent bikes
NOpe -I have a modern derailleur setup on one bike – it whirrs like the roholff and in all gears. You just do not notice because you are used to it.
Well I rode your actual bike and I have to say the whirring was noticeable in certain gears - ok so there was a lot torque going through it. But it's different to the noise that a derailleur setup makes, and derailleur noise doesn't get significantly louder with torque.
But derailleur setups aren't silent in general.
For the record I've long fancied a Rohloff, but the cost has always prohibited it. Sure, you could argue (somewhat dubiously, in my view) that over a decade they're cheaper, but that doesn't make it any easier to find £1200+ on the spot right now. And to be honest the efficiency puts me off as well. Now that I use chain wax which more or less inures my drivetrain to mud, the key benefit of IGH for me is much less significant.
Bottom 7 gears MOlgrips and it keeps on getting quieter as it wears in.
Sure if weight and efficiency is your main concern a dérailleur is better. If ease of use, longevity and convenience is your main aim then IGH
it keeps on getting quieter as it wears in.
Would be interesting to see if there was a measurable difference in drag once it wore in.
I don't notice any drag but it must be there. I would assume so tho as every oil change is full of fine metal dust
Thing is, if it gets quieter after wearing in, there must be some reduction in drag. Question is whether it's actually measurable. TBF, the only reason I don't have one is the cost. However, if I was racing seriously, the drag (even if it's only 1%) would make it a non-starter.
Sturmey goes variations of tick tick tick (silent in one gear). Different tick tick to my childhood ones due to the revised driver setup that eradicates the nasty hidden neutral.
Shimano 3 speed silent clutch freewheel but still tick tick tick.
Alfine 8 silent - annoyingly so, as lack of audible freewheel makes you spook walkers.
Just going back to the infamous SFB submerged Rohloff saga. As I remember, they didn't fail in service, just later bearing failures once corrosion set in. Just the same as happens to freehubs, hub bearings, ballrace jockey wheels and ht2 bbs if you drown them and then ignore.... Admittedly you can service or bin some of those items without sending to Germany (but they are still trashed).
How do e-bikes get on with repeated full submersion? Are they still fit for purpose if they don't survive?
I've MTB since 1989 and I've had rear mechs break when sticks go into them, crashing (shouldn't crash and then they won't break) or in the case of early SRAM just fall to bits because they were shit. Also spent many a year on a SS and really like the simplicity of SS.
Iirc you can change main bearings in a rohlf without sending to Germany but I ha e had no sign of water ingress
Alfine 8 silent – annoyingly so, as lack of audible freewheel makes you spook walkers.
I miss my Alfine most for this - absolute silence when freewheeling. Just the thrum of the tyres on the road or trail.
NOpe -I have a modern derailleur setup on one bike – it whirrs like the roholff
Then it's set up badly, a bad workman and all that.
NOpe - all derailleur bikes make a noise as the chain goes round the jockey wheels. Yours as well. You are just used to it and tuning it out
I've enjoyed riding singlespeed,its good fun.Having said that it only works where I live in the summer months when I have,faster ,easier rolling,grippy trails,where I can get good and constant traction and keep momentum.All of which are in very short supply here in the 5 months or so of seemingly wetter and wetter Winters.So for me my humble and cheap £50 NX 11 speed Deraileur with weather proof bushings rather than seizable bearings(and a big bonus - also jetwash proof) - is the little tough marvel that just seems to work,keep working and enables me to ride just about anywhere I want to.
Of course now I've said that ,I know whats gonna happen on the next ride .