[Closed] 650B the new 29 er's. Looks like the tides are a changing.

[quote=jambalaya ]having two bikes of [s]different[/s][b] the same [/b]size seems daft.
🙂

its all marketing crap along with dropper posts and 9/10 speed gearing.

Ban the lot of it.

650b will be the standard. 26" and 29" will be niche for the dirt jumpers and the bearded wierdo's.

650b is 5% bigger than 26" (ISO sizing). Is that seriously going to be noticeable?

If 650b had been the norm for MTBs and 26" was the new thing I'd stick with 650b just for compatibility and I don't like changing my bike very often.

If I had a bike here now, I'd be riding it rather than discussing wheel sizes on the internet.

If I had a bike here now, I'd be riding it rather than discussing wheel sizes on the internet.

Me too. Sadly a whole day of riding at Cannock yesterday has meant baby-sitting duties today.

Are total newcomers to mountain biking buying 29ers, or buying what looks like 'normal' mountain bikes?
650b has been around since year dot hasn't it?

All this is going to become academic as more people discover fat bikes.

The wheel rim is 26" - so that keeps the 26er mob happy.
The diameter of the the tyre is the same as a 29er, so that keep the 29er mob happy.
Lower the pressure slightly, and that keeps the 650B mob happy.

And as a fatbike rider, that keeps me happy. 🙂

I'm still looking for that tongue in cheek smiley though.

[quoteAll this is going to become academic as more people discover fat bikes.

No no no no no

My frame and fork, currently 26, will easily take a 650b. Can I be arsed to change wheels? No! Would I by a new bike just for a bigger wheel? No!

ken_shields - Member
I have a Voodoo Ti Hardtail with sliding dropouts hanging in my garage that will do 26", 650b and skinny 29er wheels......now that is future proof.

Just buy different wheels for doing different things and swap about as required

Can you also change the frame geometry? 🙂

For those saying that there is no point to 27.5'' as 650b is so close to 26''. Have you actually ridden one? Thought not.

It's 3.5% bigger. Taking tyres into account. The actual size difference can be 7mm. Placebo effect.

For those saying that there is no point to 27.5'' as 650b is so close to 26''. Have you actually ridden one? Thought not.

I have.
Enjoy your thoughts 🙂

I.N.R.A.T.S

However, nothing has done more to worsen my opinion of mtb manufacturers and their marketing departments than the flogging of 650-****ing-B so soon after the 29er push

(I bet nobody else has said that, hey ? 😳 )

Can you also change the frame geometry?

Surely it changes every time you change the wheels. 🙂

I'm happy for 26" to stay around because when I'm racing and a guy inevitably bins it in front of me on his 26" I can just ride over him on my 29" without even feeling it.

Just as well, JCL, you obviously wouldn't be able to manoeuvre around him with those weelz 😆

Goal!

the fact that industry have been pushing it shows that there is something in it otherwise why would they bother,

For those saying that there is no point to 27.5'' as 650b is so close to 26''. Have you actually ridden one? Thought not.

For the last 2 weeks since I bought it. Fantastic bike. Really don't understand all the fuss about competing wheel sizes. Just buy a bike you like the feel of and ride it till your in fits of giggles. Repeat at least weekly.

Did you get that tracer buzz?

I really don't care what wheelsize people ride, as long as they ride.
Fitting big tyres to 26'' to achieve 27.5'' size with small tyres is missing the point completely. Rather amusing.

ive seen precisely 3 29er bikes, stoner had some abortion of a thing with rohloff and funny big wheels, mostly as he's odd, then saw a merican riding one round Cannock last year, and my neighbours just bought one because his friend told him too (and he got a cracking deal on it) I conclude that the death of 26" is massively over exaggerated, and hype of 29ers is massively over exaggerated as well.

Never even seen a 650...

ok - so how does anything being "bigger" actually make it faster?

Surely, to move one metre along tarmac or a dirt rod takes X amount of energy. And you have to move the wheel through a metre at the edge of the tyre.

So allowing for bearing friction, which is going to be very small, and maybe wind resistance, all wheels must be just as fast as each other, from a size POV.

I would guess wheel weight would make far more difference TBH.

Now, in terms of handling, 26ers are going to be more agile , 29ers more stable.
But that isn't going to stop the trade selling like a bastard !!

Remember you all ready have XC, AM, Freeride, Downhill, Jump, 4x.

Soon you will have a bike for each season ...

Never even seen a 650...

ska-49 - Member

For those saying that there is no point to 27.5'' as 650b is so close to 26''. Have you actually ridden one? Thought not.

I have. The difference is titchy.

Thing is, the cost difference to switch from 26 to 650 is the same as to switch to 29er, but it's even harder to justify because the actual differences are smaller.

This is why I expect 650b to take over- the bike industry loves the pointless middle ground when it comes to standards and 650b is the 15mm of wheels.

Did you get that tracer buzz?

Indeed 😀 currently flattening The Mendips with it. And avoiding looking at bank statements :-O

Good work. Green? Box has promised me a cabbie on his. I'll say hello if I see you up there. Do you ride with Nathan?

Green. Very, eye scorchingly, green. Nath specced and built the 275 for me, and did a brilliant job of it. He is really riding lots of DH so no not with him, tho he says he want to build a 275 of his own. Box is blown away with his Raw finish 275 but had a nasty prang on his second outing and hurt his knee so off the bike for a few weeks. He's pretty miserable about it so take a packet of hobnobs next time you go in shop to cheer him up.

It a bloody good bike. I can stop grinning this evening.

Gwinn just won the Sea Otter DH on the Enduro 29".

sea otter course is 2 laps of a disused velodrome isn't it ?

Gwinn just won the Sea Otter DH on the Enduro 29".

Yeah, look at that killer margin...

http://www.vitalmtb.com/news/news/Gwin-and-Kintner-Win-Sea-Otter-DH-its-The-Double-for-Kintner,588?utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=spotlight

I mean the 29er, it just slayed the field! Considering it's Gwin, and Sea Otter (probably the most perfect 29er environment) it's hardly conclusive is it. In fact we're used to him putting multiple seconds into the field, not 0.01 of a second.

So, did the 29er slow him down??

Gwinn just won the Sea Otter DH on the Enduro 29".

Isn't that the course you called a joke?

Hmmm...

Despite reports to the contrary, Gwin was aboard a 26" wheeled bike, although he was spotted practicing aboard an Enduro 29er

So Hobnob, can you clarify if the 29er slowed him down? 😉

I don't think Sea Otter's that useful tbh. Then again I also don't think the results that the fastest riders in the world get necessarily mean a thing to us dobbers.

Probably did, hence why he didn't use it!

So, did the 29er slow him down??

I imagine so, yes.

Hob Nob - Member

Probably did, hence why he didn't use it!

Or, he rode a bike he's more familiar with or more comfortable with, regardless of wheel size.

Point is, a minute ago you were theorising that it might have slowed him down in the race, since he's the fastest man in the world and he only beat mick hannah by a .2 of a bawhair. But it didn't do that while sat in the truck 😉

They all have their pros and cons - any claim to the contrary is just marketing. Ride a 20" regularly and a 26" feels like a steamroller!

Why does there have to be a best?

What is the "best" mean anyway? The lightest, the grippiest, the stiffest, the one that keeps more speed, the one that allows the most generation of speed?

Why can't it just be nice to have all available, give all a go and work out which is best for our own personal riding styles/preferences/locations?

The "best" wheel size will inevitably vary from person to person.

I have yet to ride either of the new sizes.

I am 29r curious as for the rolling openness of the South Downs I could see the benefits (although I emphatically dont feel a need for one as my 26r never fails to make me smile).

650b just strikes me as likely to be too close to 26r so wouldnt look for one as a specific feature. That wouldnt stop me owning one if the bike I wanted was 650b its just it seems to be something of nothing excepting the pro/elite riders who may be able to make real use of the small performance gain over 26".

Or maybe Gwinn wished he did use a 29er and been faster! Complete speculation. A pro will be quick on any decent bike. I like my 29er and 26" bikes. Don't think I will be rushing to by a 650B though. Its just too similar to a 26" and another standard.

I am 29r curious as for the rolling openness of the South Downs I could see the benefits

Politely, this is a mis conception. The lads, all on 29ers with me on a 27.5, were thrashing DH trails, squiggly singletrack the width of your palm, and microwave sized rock fields today. Box won a gravity enduro on one. Well designed big wheelers are just well designed bikes.

I might have said this before: This is engineering. There is no 'best'. All there is is the least bad balance of compromises for the specific application. And as we're talking about mountain biking, which is an incredibly diverse sport compared to road biking, then there's no reason for numerous different wheel sizes to not co-exist, just as forks and frames come in a massive variety of geometries, strengths, stiffness, spring medium, sizes and so on...

I ride a 26er MTB. Quite a lot my riding buddies ride 29ers, though far more are on 26. Most of those I regularly ride with don't change their bikes very often at all. I like the idea of 29er as a second bike for less agro riding (my agro riding being more about corners, jumps and drops than high speed rough descents - I'd totally get something like a Quarterhorse if I lived somewhere rocky) but I've been disappointed to notice the lack of mud clearance on them. And I like how short chainstays feel so I'm not sure how that can be solved!

650b may prove popular, it may not. In my opinion it's close enough to 26 that it really doesn't matter if one kills off the other or if both take a fair share of the market - by the time that happens I'm sure my current MTB will have been retired to an easier life. Much as I like using my LBS, I don't buy tyres there and that's the main scenario where too many wheel sizes is a problem.

Reckon 26ers have a very short shelf life now

Halfords sell up to 1 million bikes a year

The vast majority of those have wheel sizes no larger than 26"

Don't confuse marketing hype with real life sales figures

Halfords sell up to 1 million bikes a year

The vast majority of those have wheel sizes no larger than 26"

Don't confuse marketing hype with real life sales figures

Don't confuse the UK with the rest of the world. The only 26" in my LBS are DH.

[i]I like Kimbers analogy of Betamax and 29ers.

Betamax was the best variant of video but VHS was the winner due to the larger manufacturers with the most money.
[/i]

This was the best variant:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_2000

And one of the guys yesterday rode a 29er HT, the one bit of impressive stuff was were he rode up/over some heather, that none of the rest of us could manage (and he wasn't the fittest/fastest etc). It just 'steamrollered'.

But for me, as someone with about five 26" wheelsets and four frames...

Don't confuse the UK with the rest of the world.

Fair point - I'm sure your average Chinese or Vietnamese person isn't having the 29er/650b/26" debate. I imagine they buy the best bike they can afford that meets their needs.

The only 26" in my LBS are DH

...and I'd suspect your bike shop is a niche shop selling to the local 'specialist' market. Ask the owner how many bikes he sells a year and then decide if it's going to affect the global bike market (to use your point)

Daft question but... the dimensions we are talking about are all measured from the same point, outside of the rim?

http://www.bikerumor.com/2012/06/06/whats-driving-the-650b-explosion-interviews-tech-breakdown-more/

seem to be plenty of 29ers riding xc round here this weekend 😆

<img src="http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8114/8670529087_5b9ea3db18.jpg" width="500" height="334" alt="CiCLEClassic2013_ 446">

One interesting comment that seems to have been forgotton is that almost all riders buy their bikes from a LBS. LBS will not want to stock 3 different sizes - that way too much stock and explaining to do.

So some of this imagined demand may not materialise just because the LBS has limited space and cash.

...and I'd suspect your bike shop is a niche shop selling to the local 'specialist' market. Ask the owner how many bikes he sells a year and then decide if it's going to affect the global bike market (to use your point)

Well the North American market is the largest market for performance mountain bikes. The public here seem far more accepting of different standards if they provide a benefit so I guess that's why 29" are the majority of sales? The UK is stuck in the mud for some reason.

The UK is stuck in the mud for some reason

For fear of being wrong 😉

The UK has different conditions and a dedicated mountain biking community (with its own trails and events) that has grown up with 26ers. That's not to say there aren't all sorts of other bikes and events (cross, road) run as well though. We do suffer somewhat from the US pushing stuff on us without bothering to understand us. Just because the US does it doesn't make it right

The UK is stuck in the mud for some reason.

Literally. Please let me know when someone makes a 29er that can run high volume tyres all year round without seizing up in the mud or having chainstays so long the front wheel resolutely refuses to leave the ground.

Reading the interview on the link to bikeradar, the manufacturers seem to imply that it was europe that was one of the driving forces behind 650B, as we're not all riding 29ers like the 'mericans are.
It smacks of;
"shit, those pesky commie euros haven't taken the bait, quick invent something just like they got and make sure they buy some goddamnit. YEE-HAAAW"

I transferred from 26er to 29ers 4 years ago when they were "niche" 😆 so it's hard for me to understand the love for 26ers any more. All my mates ride 29ers too, but you see where we ride 29ers are just betterer like init.

But a well designed bike is a well designed bike and a good rider is a good rider on whatever they ride IMO.

Well the North American market is the largest market for performance mountain bikes. The public here seem far more accepting of different standards if they provide a benefit so I guess that's why 29" are the majority of sales? The UK is stuck in the mud for some reason.

So we can assume the USA is the rest of the world ... or does the statement change to suit the argument?

Anyway, my point wasn't whether 29er is good for the US or 650b is the best for Europe. The vast volume of bike sales from Halfords, which will be high proportion of low to medium range mountain bikes, means that the death knoll is hardly chiming for the 26" wheeled bike.

It's only when the larger wheel sizes breakthrough into the mainstream market and start to monopolise sales can they be considered as truly having an impact on the cycling world (in the UK at least).

yes! really our group rides with about 25 - 30 locals here and there is 1, yes one, guy (over 6ft) who has just got a 29er - the rest of us are on 26ers and quite happy. its not as though we only ride occasionally

yes! really our group rides with about 25 - 30 locals here and there is 1, yes one, guy (over 6ft) who has just got a 29er - the rest of us are on 26ers and quite happy. its not as though we only ride occasionally

no! our group rides are up to 12 riders and the clear majority are on 29ers nowadays, and one on 650b that he put in a Whippet frame. We are all heights. Last week the 2 on 26ers were 50 metres off the back of the group all the time, and they are quite fit. We don't only ride occasionally either.

which proves nothing other than a small sample is meaningless

(everyone should ride what makes them happy)

it is interesting though to see that range of how different things are in different places

agree with the "everyone should ride what makes them happy"

yeah it is, where are you? we're in Surrey Hills doing fast XC and singletrack, uppy downy hilly rather than biiig up biiig down hilly

I heard one LBS has stopped ordering 26ers and is only selling 29ers and 650b now, in what proportions I don't know

the first 29er in our crew was about 18 months ago

I'm a 26 inch wheel user and I have effectively stopped buying anything that is wheel size specific (frame/fork/wheels/tyres), I was going to buy a Soul but I'm happy to wait now. When the stockpile wears out or something major breaks, I will go for 650b, although I would prefer the size to be nearer to the middle than 26in. I'm expecting, optimistically perhaps, to put less money into the bike industry over the next few years though I will have to resist the bargains if the bottom does fall out of the 26inch market.

I seem to be a little out of step with this wheel trend thing as I moved from 26" to 650b in 1984. I have however recently put a deposit on a Geoff Apps designed 1981 700x47c machine.

I'm a 26 inch wheel user

Well done chap, the first step is admitting you have a problem.

Toasty - Member
I'm a 26 inch wheel user
Well done chap, the first step is admitting you have a problem.

So what makes 650B/27.5" closer to 26" than 29?? Since 27.5 is right bang in the middle in terms of numbers. 😕

michaelmcc - Member
So what makes 650B/27.5" closer to 26" than 29?? Since 27.5 is right bang in the middle in terms of numbers.

The diameter. 27.5" is just 25mm bigger than 26" - 29 is 63mm bigger. It's less than halfway.

[img] [/img]

This is an interesting article/picture Michael.

[url= http://twentynineinches.com/soapbox/ ]Twentynine inches[/url]

'27.5' is not really 27.5, marketers are trying to get the term adopted because it's less technical, and more reassuring, than '650b'

michaelmcc - Member

So what makes 650B/27.5" closer to 26" than 29??

The size

Nice pic Lee!! Yeah it looks like it'd be F' all difference really.

Just got my 29er this year,after years of hating...650b i won't be adding,but for xc racers on some courses will do well

Hi Mattg

were in the east midlands with pretty muddy trails and trips to neighbouring trail centres (e.g sherwood cannock and wales occasionally, cornwall lakes etc) some of the guys do more jump stuff at chicksands but I am old and riding xc. we have a few fixies too. I used to ride surrey hills before it was call that - just ranmore common down to Leith hills and around there

I admit i haven't read all of this thread just a couple of pages of the usual stuff when ever wheel size is mentioned but, and in a totally non scientific way just an observation, the good weather this weekend bought out loads of families on the disused rail line that runs through my village and quite a few people out on obviously new bikes, and i can honestly say that half of all the new mtb's that i saw were 29ers. I would say from appearances that most of these people weren't mtb'ers but leisure users, so big push of sales coming from bike shops it would appear.

The public want what the public get. 😉

I used to ride surrey hills before it was call that - just ranmore common down to Leith hills and around there

So did we!

No fixies but some SS here, that's gaining ground too (and works well on a 29).

Thinking about how the group are moving over, I realised it's nothing to do with the LBSs, most of us build our own bikes or order what we want rather than what they stock.

[quote=Bazz ]I admit i haven't read all of this thread just a couple of pages of the usual stuff when ever wheel size is mentioned but, and in a totally non scientific way just an observation, the good weather this weekend bought out loads of families on the disused rail line that runs through my village and quite a few people out on obviously new bikes, and i can honestly say that half of all the new mtb's that i saw were 29ers. I would say from appearances that most of these people weren't mtb'ers but leisure users, so big push of sales coming from bike shops it would appear.
The thing is, for most of those folk the bigger wheel makes a lot of sense. They're not after flickability, sharp steering or whatever perceived advantage the smaller wheel gives. What they need is a chunky hybrid.

What they need is a chunky hybrid.

+1 It would suit 90% of uk riders.

But they believe the marketing hype that they need 150mm travel, retro wheels, seatposts that go up and down by themselves, Helmets with no vents and matching anodized parts.