[Closed] 650b - feel alittle underwhelmed

The Ibis mojo HD was a pretty steep, stiffly suspended bike was it not? Drop your PSI at the front, if it dives a bit too much add a bit more LSC Lester. Raise the rear PSI a little. Maybe drop a bit of psi in the front tyre as well.

You might be running two fast a rebound setup at the front as well.

New bikes require new suspension setups. If you're lucky, you get it right the first time like I did with the Reign.

chakaping I'm 3inches over the manufacturers recommended guidelines.

Look at that on a ruler and contrast it with your overall height?

So I'm 8cm's taller or 4% over their guidelines. Is that insurmountable?

The final decision should be on the riders feel, their actual preference.

Manufacturers guidelines are balls. I'm in between a medium Reign or a large as I'm 5 11 and a bit (182cm..can't quite say 6 foot). Gone for a large, best thing I ever did.

Long top tubes, short stems (30mm or less) really are where it's at. You have to drive the bike more, but my god, when you point them down steep sections, over rocks, over drops, over jumps....they hoon. To someone who grew up riding mtbs since the age of 5-6, during the 90's with elastomer sprung, v-braked pieces of shit - it's almost like cheating. Even compared to a lot of the 2005ish downhill bikes it's like cheating. People have no idea how good some of the current bikes are.

It's been a long long time since I didn't feel like worrying about trail features and just took the racing line everywhere. Did I say again how much I'm looking forward to when my Reign gets here? 🙂 It's like playing a ****ing computer game.

the 650b [b]MEGA[/b] was definitely not as manoeuvereable as the 26er [b]MEGA[/b] in the twisties,

there is so much more about frame design and a bike than one or 2 numbers if that be wheels or HA. Some of the dismissive 650 this 26 that is specific to the experience on one or 2 bikes.

I agree Tom.

I'll measure the bike in 26-26 mode tonight and report back on the angles.

At the moment:
Commencal's measurements from their website: are 66degrees head angle and 74degrees seat angle.

With my 650b/26 its 65 degrees and 71 degrees (although it doesn't feel 71 as I've raised the post/tilted and moved the saddle).

Hora if you go for a smaller bike than is ideal then you are never going to be able to feel in the bike rather than on the bike.

Post a pic up of you on the bike to see what it looks like.

Renton - a longer top tube and longer seat tube can make you feel stretched out and higher up. Theres more to it than that. Sag, angles, design etc.

I'd love it if some bike designers could say from their perspective. Don't forget Bike designers have to design a bike to be sold to as many people as possible- not to their own personal preferences, or maybe what they'd really like to see/do? (thats a question).

Don't worry about the head angle. Slacker is better anyway, sure it will be a bit floppier at lower speeds but that will just encourage you to go faster. 😛 Bikes that are fun to ride at slow speed, keep you riding slowly.

True Hora, but that's what 30mm stems and risers are for 😛 I've gone from a 417mm reach to 460, even with a 50mm stem I didn't feel stretched out. Just feels a bit like a motocross bike now. I reckon a 500mm reach would feel fine.

In certain cases yes but with a longer seat tube your sestpost will be slightly lower that's all.

With top tube length yes it can stretch you out of you use a long stem but newer bikes are designed to run shorter stems. Look at the new bird aeris as an example.

Renton - a longer top tube and longer seat tube can make you feel stretched out and higher up. Theres more to it than that. Sag, angles, design etc.

Most bikes run such short seat tubes now for a given 'size' that point is fairly irrelevant. A large seems to only be 18/19" now for the newer breed of geometry bikes, as people want more standover to run a bigger drop on a seat post.

TT length, also a largely irrelevant number, as it's manipulated hugely by ST angle, which can make a long bike on paper appear quite short up top.

Focus more on reach & stack. I prefer to ride something on paper that's considered in the right sort of size for me, you are taller than me & ride a smaller bike, I think that's some of the issue, shorter wheelbase makes you feel perched on the bike rather than a more between the wheels feeling.

FWIW, large Reign, 50mm stem & 800mm bars.

I think I mentioned this in another topic but looking at the numbers, that's a little bike for a big guy. No wonder it feels weird to ride. Maybe the smaller wheels slightly normalised it by putting you slightly closer to the ground and putting on the right sized wheels has tipped it over the edge, so to speak.

In a non confrontational way, have you actually ridden a newer designed bike sized roughly in line with your height? You made reference to only being 3" above the recommended height for that size, but that's the recommended upper limit, if you take the average, you're half a foot too tall for it.

I still maintain the biggest part of the issue is your bike is (quite a bit) too small for you.

"the 650b MEGA was definitely not as manoeuverable as the 26er MEGA in the twisties"
thanks for fify,
you are right of course. i thought that the two different size megas was a good comparison, maybe they arent.
can anyone suggest a better pairing of 26 and 650b to compare, that are possibly a closer pair of bikes except for wheel size.
with the amount of different geometries, and suspension setups etc, im not sure why anyone should swap the current bike they are happy with for another wheel size, as they will be very lucky to find a bike that fits perfectly.

Hob nob - I understand where you are coming from- I've also had a go on a medium and a large Bronson. On both I 'felt' the wheels - its really hard to describe -'loapy', gangly, ungainly even?. I've been told this 'feeling'/where you are conscious of the wheel feel goes away quite quickly- I had the same feeling on my 650b'd V4- it hasn't/didn't go away. Maybe with time I'll get used to it.

In addition- if I was on too small a bike - why did I take a longer stem off and refit a 55mm stem? My V4 has a long wheelbase and I don't feel cramped in the cockpit.

Out of interest - how do you calculate reach & stack? I'd be interested to see what these figures tell me and if I'm out (and a freak) or if I'm there or thereabouts. Not as thoguh I'm looking for vindication- more out of interest, I actually like the figures/working things out and learning more 😀

Edit. This looks good to use: http://bikegeo.muha.cc/

I'll have a go this evening when we are back from BMX.

can anyone suggest a better pairing of 26 and 650b to compare, that are possibly a closer pair of bikes except for wheel size.

It's at the point where wheel size is irrelevant to me, I ride the bike if it's good it's good, if it's not it's not. There were enough 26" bikes that were not that good to make a lot of comparisons that use wheel size to be a bit pointless. Unless you want to do the whole it's better/worse because of the wheels things.

Hob nob - I understand where you are coming from- I've also had a go on a medium and a large Bronson. On both I 'felt' the wheels - its really hard to describe -'loapy', gangly, ungainly even?. I've been told this 'feeling'/where you are conscious of the wheel feel goes away quite quickly- I had the same feeling on my 650b'd V4- it hasn't/didn't go away. Maybe with time I'll get used to it.

That might just be a characteristic of that bike to be fair, I rode a Bronson and felt very on top of it, my wife was the same, and she really, really wanted to like/buy one, but the demo put her right off it. But, some people like that feeling. Also the Bronson is a small bike (reach), given it's official sizing (S/M/L/etc) so not really a great basis for comparison.

Regarding the stem - I personally wouldn't try to use a stem to make a bike fit, either way, too long makes that kind of bike behave strange in a different way.

R & S - have a Google, it's the relationship between BB & HT in both distance and height. Your link shows it in a picture. When I stated your bike looked small, I didn't even look at the TT (or ST) length, I just went off the reach, which for your height, is very short, which pushes you into a more upright position on the bike, much like a shorter wheelbase.

I do think the same bike in a large would solve a lot of the issues you are experiencing. The large Meta isn't huge either, so it's not going to turn into a long old supertanker, which can be a downside of some of these longer bikes.

How tall are you hora and did the bike come with those forks ?

Best thread in ages. Renton and Hora swapping advice on how to set up/fit a bike properly. Utter gold...

[img] [/img]

I've learnt my lesson.

Even I know when a bike is to small

Hora - have you tried putting a 29er wheel in the front and a 24 incher in the back? If it's that good now, imagine what it will be like turned up to 11.

Also, make sure to mount your shifter to your stem - you know, like you used to do.

Rentons consistently trying to return fire from previous threads.

Its not advice- its consistent 'too small'. Then after repeated posts about my height and references to it...

He asks 'how tall are you'

Renton. I'll still have the frame, what are you on [i]currently[/i]? 😉

It's no surprise that 27.5 feels different to 26 - everyone can feel a difference between 29 and 26 (a substantial difference for most) and 27.5 is 40% of the way to 29 from 26.

Hora, the angles with 27.5 and 26 will be identical but the BB will be 12.5mm higher with the same tyres. With 27.5F/26R the bike will be about 4mm higher than 26 and 1 degree slacker.

A bike with longer reach will lower your CoG and a bike with longer front-centre will be less prone to over-rotation around the front contact patch on steep stuff - a bike with lower BB height will have similar benefits. So the Meta v4 in large with 27.5 wheels may have the same reassuring feel as the v4 medium with 26 wheels, whilst being better at rolling and pedalling.

Bigger wheels do require you to attack corners a bit more - but you get more grip in return.

No hora I'm trying to get you to see that like everyone else on here that I think the bike is to small for you.

Did the bike come with those forks or am I right in thinking you have put them on and they are longer travel than previous forks.

I was going to take that pic of Hora's bike and potato-chop some crazy over-sized wheels into it as a mock suggestion of what he should do. However, I don't have potatochop on my works PC and frankly, even if I did I doubt I'd have the attention span to do it without getting bored/distracted/hungry.

So just imagine that I did it and laugh at Hora's expense.

Is there a current record for the Hora Love to Hate to Classified relationship? Do we measure in miles or days?

Anyway more seriously I got faster every ride on the 29r and same with the Blur Lt, just takes time to get into it.

[img] https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/Vr-5tq8X9ege2mfqtz55yPDqdLlboa1svruS2wzZEfU=w1407-h1055-no [/img]

hang on a minute there think I have the problem, have you seen how many spacers on top of the stem!

Oh and still got the five thanks !!

It's no surprise that 27.5 feels different to 26 - everyone can feel a difference between 29 and 26 (a substantial difference for most) and 27.5 is 40% of the way to 29 from 26.

Hora, the angles with 27.5 and 26 will be identical but the BB will be 12.5mm higher with the same tyres. With 27.5F/26R the bike will be about 4mm higher than 26 and 1 degree slacker.

A bike with longer reach will lower your CoG and a bike with longer front-centre will be less prone to over-rotation around the front contact patch on steep stuff - a bike with lower BB height will have similar benefits. So the Meta v4 in large with 27.5 wheels may have the same reassuring feel as the v4 medium with 26 wheels, whilst being better at rolling and pedalling.

Cheers for that- 4mm higher BB isn't too much and it also helps with pedal strikes whilst giving me a front wheel that will roll over trail easier too combined with a rear wheel that still gives the bike abit of pep. I'll see how the 650b/26'er combo goes.

On your size comment- noted. Theres no going up on size now and tbh the large size's seat tube of 19.5inch would have been too long for me- I like my saddle really low on certain trails. With a dropper collar and rail mount- that'll add another inch ontop of the seat tube already. That on balance, is just too long for me.

As it stands the medium has a hell of a lot more positives (feel for a start) and stability that made me lean towards buying one over another manufacturers brand that would have been ££££££ more.

Afterall how many BOS shock/headset/650b good frames can you buy for just over £800 delivered with 5yr warranty?

Cheers for that- 4mm higher BB isn't too much and it also helps with pedal strikes whilst giving me a front wheel that will roll over trail easier too combined with a rear wheel that still gives the bike abit of pep. I'll see how the 650b/26'er combo goes.

Only occassional strikes. Its not a problem but I probably wouldn't get **** all back on the SS front wheel that I bought whereas I could sell the Hope40T Evo2 for a good return. That is if I decided not to keep 650b or have the option there in the shed for when I fancied it in the future.

Sounds daft when you think about it, 4mm and 12.5mm but then ^^^ apparently 8cm is alot too.

Lots of people rave about 67.5'ers - wont hurt to try it for the apparent benefits (on mtbr forum and here as well). If I don't fancy it I can go 26'er or full 650b and work on the sag/psi in each end to balance the bike.

Your saddle isnt level !!

you could be putting more weight on the front of the bike.

Sorry but 4mm is the difference? 4mm? Not to do the obvious but there a lots of bloke measuring gags, 4mm!
Even 12.5mm/ 1/2 inch is still a very small amount. If our striking on 26" then raising it 4mm probably won't help unless it's in your head.

When you're hitting cranks/pedals on the ground then even 2mm extra clearance can be the difference between a big strike and a crash and getting away with it. It's the gap between pedal and ground that matters, not the total BB height or length of crank. If that gap is only a few mm then 12mm is a HUGE difference.

The only real advice between the incredibly easy piss taking is to set it up 650 and ride it, see how it feels get used to it. If you can't then sell it, won't be the first time but give it a proper go. In the words of somebody it's not about the bike.
Stick the 650b's in it, or even better get somebody to scrape your size labels off the wheels and rubber and swap them over so your are doing it blind then forget everything else think of something else then ride.

Cheers chiefgrooveguru you know your stuff

When you're hitting cranks/pedals on the ground then even 2mm extra clearance can be the difference

I can honestly say I've never noticed 650b wheels feeling bigger and more cumbersome than my old 26" bikes, hell my 650b Foxy has shorter chainstays than my 26" Mojo HD. 29ers do feel very different but in a blind test I'd be hard pushed to tell if I was on a 650b or 26" bike. Just ride, get used to it a little more and it'll all settle down, all this messing around with different sized is messing more with your head than anything else.

This isnt aimed at chiefgrooveguru btw

hora you say that chiefgrooveguru knows his stuff, or is he just saying what you think you want to hear??

Renton he also explained constructively about the benefits of me being on a larger size. My reply:

On your size comment- noted. Theres no going up on size now and tbh the large size's seat tube of 19.5inch would have been too long for me- I like my saddle really low on certain trails. With a dropper collar and rail mount- that'll add another inch ontop of the seat tube already. That on balance, is just too long for me.

So he wasn't saying what I wanted to hear.

so is the collar of you dropper post butted right up to the top of the seat tube at its correct height?

I have just put some really light wheels on my 26. Even though the whole bike is 3lb heavier than my 29 I'm getting PRs all over the place.
Even with the extra roll overability of the 29 I'm still hindered by a low bottom bracket.
My 1999 26er is quicker,comfier and more practical than the laSt 3 "modern" bikes I've owned.
I'm going to be one of those old boys tutting about anything new that comes out. Though 740 bars imbued the 26 with 29 stability so they're alright.

So basically you have a freakish posture and insist on riding bikes that are the wrong size and then try to make them fit, then cast aspersions that the bike designer doesn't know what he was doing, and then come on here and troll to get as many pages of attention hora-ing as you can.

Is that a fair summary?

^^^

Stop selectively reading so you can reinforce a negative post-mentality. I'll point you towards other posters who also say they don't get on with 650b bikes too.

Notice how I posted up that I wasn't too keen on other 650b bikes that I've tried?

Is Jedi wrong?

Be constructive, I don't go on your topics posting negativity do I?

I have just put some really light wheels on my 26. Even though the whole bike is 3lb heavier than my 29 I'm getting PRs all over the place.

Yesterday I got my third-fastest Strava time up a seven-minute climb (which I have ridden loads).

I was riding a 180mm travel 26in bike which weighs north of 35lb.

Only explanation is I was already warmed up nicely with 800m of climbing, compared to hitting it cold normally.

(sorry for the hijack but the main topic isn't really going anywhere now)

Is Jedi wrong?

he is probably right as he has the riding skills to back up his opinions...

🙂