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Did an interesting conparison last night..I have 3 road bikes, a tcr pro 0 with carbon wheels, a much cheaper defy (newest model) but also with carbon deep section wheels, and a genesis croix de fer, with box standard box rims (although the wheels themselves are pretty light). All 3 are fitted with power meters.
The tcr weighs about 8kg, the defy 8.5kg, and the genesis about 10.5kg
Riding similar length of route, with similar elevation (20 miles with around 100ft climbing per mile), and at similar average power, the defy and tcr go at pretty much same speed, however yesterday when I took the genesis it was massively slower. A whole 2mph slower actually. And that's with it having proper road tyres on, not some sturdy gravel rubber (although they aren't the premium type of tyres I have on the other 2 bikes).
Must say I was shocked by how slow it was. It didn't just go slowly either, it felt slow on both flats and climbs. So much so that i checked the brakes weren't rubbing.
Moral of story..you don't need to spend anywhere near 5k to go as fast as you can on a 5k bike (the defy proves that), however if you pick a heavy, un aerodynamic lump of a bike and skimp on decent tyres, you'll be making things hard work for yourself...
And should we all be on 6.8kg, £5K+, lightweight aero bikes while we’re developing what you regard as an acceptable level of fitness?
You’re being silly and putting words in my mouth now. I’m not going to bite - at no point whatsoever did I mention anything about acceptable levels of fitness - people have lives and other commitments. Look - two or three 15 or 20 minute at home core sessions is all you need, take out one of your short rides, add in that and you’re there - but it depends on your aims and goals. Ride whatever distance you want. I’m guessing 95% of riders don’t race, I’m a racer so it’s different.
But what I hate is when riders buy a top end aero bike , all the bells and whistles, then complain or comment that it’s a harsh ride, or say they couldn’t spend more than 5 or 6 hours in the saddle on it. Drives me up the wall. cop on and maybe consider getting a bike more suited to you .
I kind of expected my other road bikes to be quicker than my ancient Roubaix but it holds nearly all my PR's on road Strava segments (which I know will partly be done to the fact that I ride it more than all my other road bikes together). The only 2 KOM's I've ever had (and on both of them I'm down to 2nd now) were using the racier road bikes though.
Ride whatever distance you want. I’m guessing 95% of riders don’t race, I’m a racer so it’s different.
Nice to see you admitting you were talking bollocks... 🙂
Drives me up the wall. cop on and maybe consider getting a bike more suited to you
Something like a Roubaix maybe...
All this dunt matter... You want a bike that feels faster... When I bought my first CR1, the brief was; a carbon road bike that felt totally different (in a good way) from all the other fast tourer/audaxy/heavy tourer stuff I already had. I tried 3 bikes and the CR1 felt like a Ferrari must feel after a Mondog. I know by current standards it's a wheelchair and not aero, but it feels fast.
I don't care about the numbers, I'm not paid to deliver them. I want something I enjoy riding and feels light, fast and exhilarating to ride. It's good for a full day and I don't feel like I've done 5 rounds with Haye/Joshua etc after a 50 miler. Yeah it's nice to do the numbers but it's not the main thing. Enjoying it is.
Drives me up the wall. cop on and maybe consider getting a bike more suited to you
This is a big part of it. On the one hand, the market would like to sell you something stiffer/lighter/aero-er, there's the info above about aero being more significant than weight for most riding most of the time, the industry has largely moved away from bragging about how x is 20g lighter than y and instead talks about how x saves you 20W at y speed over z time.
And then in the Real World, the slightly overweight enthusiast rider gets onto his/her aero bike in slightly baggy clothing, loads it down with water bottle, seatpack, top tube pack, lights, pump etc and pedals off inefficiently at the start of their sportive, stopping at lights and junctions, spending the whole ride on the hoods or tops and negating the entire point of buying anything lighter/stiffer/aero-er.
I mean, I've long since given up caring what people ride but while the market would like to sell people that, what they really need is a Roubaix! (other brands are available)
A Strava KOM doesn’t mean you were on the fastest bike, unless it’s a long segment with lots of broken road, then I’d suggest a rider on an aero bike (that fits) would have been able to put out more speed for less power, therefore potentially going faster.
Not overly sure how this point is being debated. If your able to maintain an aero position on an aero bike, you’re going to be faster than someone on an endurance bike for the same amount of power.
How many Trek Domane’s or Specialized Roubaixs do you see at the start line of a pro crit race? There is a reason the answer to that question is zero and it has nothing to do with sponsors.
All this dunt matter… You want a bike that feels faster…
From that perspective I've found that wheels deliver that more than overall bike weight. My Roubaix feels particularly lovely with my lightest (Dura-Ace) wheels on. Whether it's actually faster I'm not sure - although for most rides (at least when it's not windy) it's probably fastest when I borrow the wheels from my TT bike, even if it does look a bit odd like that:
Nice to see you admitting you were talking bollocks… 🙂
I’ll talk bollox if you want me to. Can I call you fat and lazy if you don’t race? How about spending over 5k on a bike that never makes it to the start line, that sounds like bollox to me., the poor bike. Most bikes for 2k - 3k look and feel pretty similar to 5k ones if you aren’t a racer? I guess it’s all about Strava these days though right? 🙄 ...Those 400 quid deep section wheels on CRC would look the same as Zipp ones to most punters if it’s mostly about the image.
But I wasn’t talking bollox, a small increase in core strength can do wonders for your riding and make it a lot more enjoyable whether you race or not.
How many Trek Domane’s or Specialized Roubaixs do you see at the start line of a pro crit race?
Roughly the same number of us on here that'd be seen on the start line of a pro crit race I imagine. And about as useful an argument as asking how many of us drive Formula 1 cars on our commute to work.
One of my (now departed) KOM's was flat and done on my Boardman Team Carbon with clip-on TT bars fitted. Would an Aero bike be a better tool for having a go at taking the KOM back - definitely yes, although when I next have a go (it's in France so could be a while!) I'm thinking I'll take the TT bike. The guy who holds the KOM now was massively quicker than me though, so probably out of reach for me even with the TT bike.
I’ll talk bollox if you want me to. Can I call you fat and lazy if you don’t race?If you did you'd be right. You could even thrown in "old" if you wanted to as well, and still be right.
How about spending over 5k on a bike that never makes it to the start line, that sounds like bollox to me., the poor bike.I don't have a 5K road bike - nothing even close in fact. I did consider spending something near that at one point but it would have either have been on one of the new Roubaix's or perhaps something in Ti from Enigma. Wouldn't have been on anything particularly fast.
BTW, on your fitness point (and there is a point), the think that had the biggest impact on my road bike speed wasn't any of that core stuff or even spending more time on the bike. It was switching some of my fitness time to running, with a subsequent significant drop in weight.
Specialized Roubaixs do you see at the start line of a pro crit race? There is a reason the answer to that question is zero and it has nothing to do with sponsors.
All about the spesh allez' for the enevitable smash crash at crits ......
@epicsteve Aye, it does look wierd but who cares. If you get the best out of it, stuff Stava segments and KOM's. Racing against strangers? Swoon. It's a bit like arguing with strangers on't Internet 😁
If I could get an HMX/HiMod 750g comfy aero frame with calipers and QR in the sales for less than £1.5k I'd jump at it especially if it could take up to 28's. My 'old' CR1'S are 'limited' to 23's but I came from 19's/21's so they're luxury 😁
All about the spesh allez’ for the enevitable smash crash at crits ……
I used to marshall at the occasional crit (my club is based out of the Redbridge circuit) and it was noticeable that most of the club folks who were marshaling turned up on nicer bikes than most of the racers were using. After seeing a few crashes I could see why.
There were exceptions as we used to get some of the younger team UK folks on Dogma's or the like but they were usually so far in front of everyone else that it didn't seem likely they'd be involved in the crashes.
Aye, it does look wierd but who cares. If you get the best out of it, stuff Stava segments and KOM’s. Racing against strangers? Swoon. It’s a bit like arguing with strangers on’t Internet 😁
It was more about getting ahead of the other folks in the club as we have a team on Strava. I was (and I think still am) the quickest in the club on a lot of the flatter and downhill sections (mostly on the road bikes but there are a few where I cheated and used my TT bike). On the uphill stuff - not so much!
I used to marshall at the occasional crit (my club is based out of the Redbridge circuit) and it was noticeable that most of the club folks who were marshaling turned up on nicer bikes than most of the racers were using. After seeing a few crashes I could see why.
Really? The majority of crits I've done at Redbridge and Lee Valley, I'd have struggled to pick out a bike worth less than £4k. I remember doing a Winter Series crit (one of the Full Gas ones) at Lee Valley on a bitterly cold February morning once and there were guys there in the 2/3/4 race on £10k Venge & Madone!
If I could get an HMX/HiMod 750g comfy aero frame with calipers and QR in the sales for less than £1.5k I’d jump at it especially if it could take up to 28’s. My ‘old’ CR1’S are ‘limited’ to 23’s
so are your brakes likely .... even 25s were fun on 6800.
r8000 has solved that by taking up to a 28
disks removed that as a clearance restriction.
Really? The majority of crits I’ve done at Redbridge and Lee Valley, I’d have struggled to pick out a bike worth less than £4k. I remember doing a Winter Series crit (one of the Full Gas ones) at Lee Valley on a bitterly cold February morning once and there were guys there in the 2/3/4 race on £10k Venge & Madone!
There were usually a few of those - usually seemed to be either folks with rich parents, beginners using their best bike or folks with sponsors - but the general standard of bike wasn't THAT high.
Mind you, given the hill, I suspect the Redbridge would benefit from using a lighter bike more than most places.
Really? The majority of crits I’ve done at Redbridge and Lee Valley, I’d have struggled to pick out a bike worth less than £4k.
Or how about turning up to Yorkshire reliability rides in the depths of winter when the roads are covered with shit, checking out all of the exotic bikes with rim-braked Zipp wheels lined up ready for the not-a-race-at-all-honest-guvner to start.
To be fair, I'm absolutely a "bikes are to be ridden, not to be cleaned" sort of person, but turn up to any event, be it crit, road race or sportive and there will be more exotica on display than at your local concept store, regardless of time of year or competitiveness of the event.
The reality is that even expensive bikes are "cheap". It's all relative, but even the most expensive bike I could think to buy would be less than the basic Renault that my wife uses to go to work. Bikes can be expensive (certainly for what you get for your money!) but relatively speaking, it's nothing compared to even (for example) the most basic motorsport. I was surprised to find out how much you could spend on golf bats - took me by surprise, I can tell you!
trail_rat
Member
If I could get an HMX/HiMod 750g comfy aero frame with calipers and QR in the sales for less than £1.5k I’d jump at it especially if it could take up to 28’s. My ‘old’ CR1’S are ‘limited’ to 23’sso are your brakes likely …. even 25s were fun on 6800.
r8000 has solved that by taking up to a 28
disks removed that as a clearance restriction
One of mine runs R8000 the other DA9000 so though the frames might be 'so last sesson' the rest is reasonably up to date.
joebristol
Subscriber
@mtbtomoMy Cannondale CAAD12 105 with saddle, seatpost and bars swapped out, ~1600g wheels and tubeless tyres weighs ~7.3kg.
This sounds very light
Very polite way of saying ‘I call bullshit’ 🙃 It may be true but sounds very unlikely.
@Boblo Keep up! I've already admitted it not really 105 at all any more with the Ultegra crank, Dura ace calipers 😳🤣
The reality is that even expensive bikes are “cheap”
Yep, compared to the number of £40k+ Chelsea Tractors you see on the road, dropping £5k on a road bike seems quite frugal 😉
So as a tangential exercise, imagine you've got £5k to spend on a road bike.
What do you buy?
That's to anyone who wishes to play.
Or how about turning up to Yorkshire reliability rides in the depths of winter when the roads are covered with shit, checking out all of the exotic bikes with rim-braked Zipp wheels lined up ready for the not-a-race-at-all-honest-guvner to start.To be fair, I’m absolutely a “bikes are to be ridden, not to be cleaned” sort of person, but turn up to any event, be it crit, road race or sportive and there will be more exotica on display than at your local concept store, regardless of time of year or competitiveness of the event.
I kind of get it though if you only have one (really nice) bike and can't afford or justify a winter bike or a crit bike or a commuter bike. What other choice do you have?! If you've saved up for months to buy a £10,000 bike because that's the one you really want (or that the market has convinced you that you need!) and you don't have the space or cash for more bikes, you use that one for everything...
If you’ve saved up for months to buy a £10,000 bike because that’s the one you really want (or that the market has convinced you that you need!) and you don’t have the space or cash for more bikes, you use that one for everything…
The people I know with £5-10k bikes all seem to have winter bikes etc as well...
Drives me up the wall. cop on and maybe consider getting a bike more suited to you
This is a big part of it. On the one hand, the market would like to sell you something stiffer/lighter/aero-er, there’s the info above about aero being more significant than weight for most riding most of the time, the industry has largely moved away from bragging about how x is 20g lighter than y and instead talks about how x saves you 20W at y speed over z time.
And then in the Real World, the slightly overweight enthusiast rider gets onto his/her aero bike in slightly baggy clothing, loads it down with water bottle, seatpack, top tube pack, lights, pump etc and pedals off inefficiently at the start of their sportive, stopping at lights and junctions, spending the whole ride on the hoods or tops and negating the entire point of buying anything lighter/stiffer/aero-er.
Too funny, you said it in a better way than me 😂😂😀😀
Btw, on your fitness point (and there is a point), the think that had the biggest impact on my road bike speed wasn’t any of that core stuff or even spending more time on the bike. It was switching some of my fitness time to running, with a subsequent significant drop in weight.
Yep cross training like that can have a big difference I think we’ll all agree! Especially in the off season (oops, racer terminology). Weight drop = speed increase. I’m guessing the weight drop was in part due to the higher heart rate of running which you maybe weren’t getting as much of on the bike - or by shocking your body into something new and it adapting.
So as a tangential exercise, imagine you’ve got £5k to spend on a road bike.
What do you buy?
This:
https://www.specializedconceptstore.co.uk/product/16255/2020-tarmac-disc-expert/
Reasons: big brand so decent warranty and support and spares, lots of R&D gone into it. Functional without being OTT. Ultegra so best cross over of weight/function/price. Discs so no rim wear.
Looks good, should retain most of its value fairly well and stay reasonably up-to-date for a while yet.
Obviously heavily road/race-focused but could probably still do a bit of light "gravel" / all-road (perhaps with some wider tyres) while being more than capable of mixing it in any race I'm ever likely to do.
Downsides: yeah there's a certain lack of imagination in such a "regular" choice, it's like buying a Ford Mondeo.
As an aside, if anyone has a spare £5000 and would like to donate it, PM me... 😉
Well running can be a bit more intensive (or the entry point to 'running' requires more fitness than cycling). I've found running really helps my cycling fitness though not the other way round. I tend not to go batshit on the bike so much though so the intensity is not there though there's more duration.
<edit> @crazy-legs Do they charge more if you don't want it just in primer? 🙃
So as a tangential exercise, imagine you’ve got £5k to spend on a road bike.What do you buy?
Either something like my SLR Endurance 9.4, which was circa £2.5K new with Ultegra Di2 and discs, with the rest being sent on nice wheels and a few spot upgrades (bars and saddle). That'd probably be something like 7.5kg I expect.
Or, and perhaps more likely, a reasonably specified Enigma Etape, as that'd be around £5K with Ultegra Di2, discs and Hunt wheels. It'd also probably be heavier than my current road bikes.
I was in fortunate position of having 5k to spend last year on a bike and ended up with my tcr. Ultegra di2, carbon wheels, disk, and dual sided stages powermeter for 4.5k, which after haggling I got for 3.5k.
I could have spent more but tbh not sure what else I'd have got for the extra 1.5k. I don't think that tarmac listed above is any better speced. In the end I spent the leftover on a set of tt wheels for my tt bike.
I’ve found running really helps my cycling fitness though not the other way round.
I found the same. Loads of cycling didn't help significantly with weight loss so switching from that to running was initially very hard. On the other hand switching back to the bike after starting running with the couch to 5K programme and eventually getting to the point where I did a (slow) half marathon meant that I was immediately way faster (maybe as much as 2mph faster on average on the road bike) everywhere.
Switching back to cycling when I joined a road club meant I was on the pace of their mid group straight away but I needed to still run a couple of times a week as I was finding the cycling (and I was doing quite a bit) was good to maintain my fitness but not to improve it. Possibly that's because the longer rides I was doing were the clubs social ones, so were at a pretty relaxed pace. Using the TT bike was better as it hurt just as much as running did!
A great deal of the discussion here seems to revolve around going very, very fast indeed, maybe even racing. There is another aspect - comfort. At my advanced age and limited strength I'm more concerned about my specs not falling off when I hit one the many potholes on our less than perfect lanes. So if I were to spend around £5k on a bike it would probably be a Roubaix or Domane (neither specifically lightweight or aero) or maybe a Mason Aspect. However in reality I would probably settle for a lower spec Roubaix or Domane (mechanical rather than electronic groupset) or Mason Revolution and pocket the change.
The Tarmac looks lovely and I would be tempted myself.
I might settle for one of these though, if it were actually my money...
https://www.cannondale.com/en-gb/bikes/road/race/supersix-evo/supersix-evo-hi-mod-disc-ultegra-smu
Epicsteve, if you like running and it’s helping you improve and your happy with that, that’s great and is really all that matters. Seriously not being sarcastic.
But it’s very likely if you performed a cycling specific training programme, watching your calorie intake closely and ensuring you were flexible and strong enough to maintain a good position on the bike then you would have seen bigger performance improvements than running.
For newer cyclists running is great as variation helps the mind, it helps build stabilising muscles and helps build core strength. However these are also part of a cycle specific training programme, but are very often overlooked.
Running does not activate your neurological connectors specific to cycling. Your body will not learn to adapt to the cycling specific stresses that are required.
My wife is an athletics coach, her mantra is all about the specifity principle. Out of all the teams I’ve been involved with over the years, all of the coaches I’ve worked with, again specifity has been the key underlying training feature.
I accept
Very good runners can become pro cyclists (Mike Woods and Freddy Ovett for example), but once they transition to cycling, they do cycle specific training. Having great genetics also helps!
This is miles of topic so apologies for derailing the OP.
This is where my 5k would go
https://www.tredz.co.uk/.Orbea-Orca-Aero-M21e-Team-D-2020-Road-Bike_215997.htm
So as a tangential exercise, imagine you’ve got £5k to spend on a road bike.
What do you buy?
That’s to anyone who wishes to play.
Titanium flying gate frame with carbon fork and DA manual group set.
You did ask 😉
Or off the shelf... TCR Advanced SL.
I might settle for one of these though, if it were actually my money…
https://www.cannondale.com/en-gb/bikes/road/race/supersix-evo/supersix-evo-hi-mod-disc-ultegra-smu
/blockquote>You’d have to rub the Rapha logo off though? 😜
Epicsteve, if you like running and it’s helping you improve and your happy with that, that’s great and is really all that matters. Seriously not being sarcastic.
But it’s very likely if you performed a cycling specific training programme, watching your calorie intake closely and ensuring you were flexible and strong enough to maintain a good position on the bike then you would have seen bigger performance improvements than running.
Possibly correct however my situation has changed a lot in the couple of years since I was last doing club rides (and it was never particularly about getting faster on the bike anyway - that was just a side effect of less weight and better fitness generally). Partly it's moving back from London to Edinburgh, but mostly it's down to now having a dog. That means the time I'd previously have spent doing club rides at the weekend is now spent walking the dog (and quite long walks - typically in the 10 to 14 mile/3 to 4.5 hour range with some hills). When lockdown finishes that'll be moving onto walking the dog up some Munro's as well (at the moment I just have my local Pentland Hills to wander over).
That's also meant a move to most of my riding being off-road in the evenings with the occasional spin on the road bike (but even then only a couple of hours max). So no real likelyhood of me becoming (or needing to be) superfit although there is a possibility that as a bit of bike-fitness returns I might break out the TT bike as a way of cramming the maximum suffering into the short time slots available!
Also I don't see me joining a club up here - mostly due to time limitations and party because, unlike my club down south, the seem a bit more race focused and a lot less welcoming to old biffers like me. Would have been nice to go on a club social ride once a month or so though, as I did enjoy those.
This is where my 5k would go
https://www.tredz.co.uk/.Orbea-Orca-Aero-M21e-Team-D-2020-Road-Bike_215997.htm/blockquote >Nice is that. Not sure where mine would go, but a Ridley Fenix SL disc, with ultegra DI2 and a lightweight build kit would be easily doable in this price range, with a few quid left over for some nice wheels to go with it. Would need to think carefully here...
A great deal of the discussion here seems to revolve around going very, very fast indeed, maybe even racing. There is another aspect – comfort.
Which leads us squarely back to the start of this in that a 6.8kg featherweight climber's bike might not be very comfy or engender much confidence on rougher roads and indeed might not be as outright "fast" as a more sturdily built bike that could batter through rougher roads and have a bit more aero about it...
Which leads us squarely back to the start of this in that a 6.8kg featherweight climber’s bike might not be very comfy or engender much confidence on rougher roads and indeed might not be as outright “fast” as a more sturdily built bike that could batter through rougher roads and have a bit more aero about it…
I thought the consensus on the thread was that if the OP did indeed want a 6.8kg bike to boast about to his club-mates and/or online then either:
1) He might need to spend a bit more than £5K
2) He might just need to lie about the weight, like a lot of folks seem to
We had a chap turn up for one of our club introduction rides on about £10K of Pinarello (and a very lovely and very light thing it was too). He was someone who had been in the club back when he was a lad (although that was quite a lot of years and very may additional kg's ago) and could definitely afford the bike as he was loaded (he had a house with a pool in Chigwell if I recall correctly). He came out on a couple of our club rides and, despite the bike being very light he'd have been much better off on something like my Roubaix because despite his bike being maybe 1.5kg lighter its Dura-Ace set-up was something like 53/39 and 11-25 so much harder work on the climbs compared to my 50:34 and 11:32 (and the more relaxed riding position would also have helped).
He was a big lad (as in quite a lot heavier than me, and I'm not a lightweight) but did surprisingly well although on both of the bronze rides he did that I was also on he packed it in before the final set of hills on the way back, calling his wife to pick him up. If he's kept at it and lost a bit of weight he'd probably be pretty decent on a bike, however it'd be a long time before that choice of bike wasn't holding him back - despite it being a lovely & lightweight thing. Note that our bronze group was our social ride and only typically averaged about 12mph or so (and less when the leader brought his tandem), and did operate on the no-one gets left behind basis.
You’d have to rub the Rapha logo off though?
Not if I managed to get it in the sale.
RE the Specialized Tarmac, the SL7 is due for release (21st of this month?)
Is a blend of a Tarmac with a Venge, integrated front end, more aero, stiffer blah blah. Either way the rumour is that the Venge disappears (as SL7 is as aero) and Specialized will create a non-UCI legal frame to sell alongside the Tarmac.
This:
https://www.specializedconceptstore.co.uk/product/16255/2020-tarmac-disc-expert/
/blockquote>Yep that'll do. Is it 6.8kg though, oh no.