The thread is really about this:
I find it surprising certain manufactures (Giant for example) are happy to put out £2-£2.5K RRP bike with a Rock Shox Judy and still put these on their £800 hardtails.
Well, that sounds a bit like ”why do full-suspension bikes cost so much more than a hardtail for a similar spec”. There are answers to that.
Cutting corners (spec) to hit a price point is nothing new. If it’s more prevalent at certain price points for new stock bikes right now, then this looks a lot like the shrinkflation in action everywhere else (have you noticed how butter, orange juice and most staples in UK only packaging is sold in smaller sizes now).
Wouldn’t touch a bike with SX. No idea what a modern Judy offers as a fork though, might not be shit.
If you look at the 2023 Giant line up all the full suspension bikes in that price range have low end forks, do they just assume the riders buy and upgrade them?
I think it's more about the way that people buy these days. To most people a "full suspension bike" is a commodity item, ie it doesn't matter to them who manufactured it, and their initial interest is based on price.
If they're buying off the internet, then that's it, the manufacturer needs to have something at that price point that competes with the Boardman, Go Outdoors etc bikes, or they lose the sale.
If they then come into the shop, it's an opportunity for the salesperson to upsell. Everyone who's turning over a new leaf and is going to take up mountain biking over-estimates how much they'll be using it, so "this base model will suit you, but if you go to the next one up, then it's got better fork/drivetrain etc."
I've got a few friends I ride with who are obsessed with getting bargains. As an observer it seems to me that they spend a fair amount of time dealing with stuff that has failed because it's just not great quality.
There's some pretty epic deals around the 2k mark at the minute though. The Specialized Epic deal, the various Vitus / Nukeproof offers at Chiggle. No one is paying RRP for bike stuff any more, it's a buyers market now.
I don’t think mountain bikes have ever been such good value unless you don’t understand inflation or insist on paying full price.
Depends how far back you look, my first propper bike cost £275 in 2002 and had a full Deore groupset, Rockshox fork, Maxxis tyres and Ritchey finishing kit. That's still only £480 today and I can't see anything even close to that for value?
There has definitely been a lack of value in the whole industry since about 2014ish, back then an "entry level" FS (i.e. a good one like the Giant VT, Specialized Pitch, Cannondale Prophet) cost £1200-£1800ish which would now be £2k-£2.5k which is probably close to the current reality TBH. On the other hand there was a period 2015-2019 ish where neither Rockshox or Fox had a mid travel budget fork worth buying untill Rockshox made the 35 and Marzocchi made the Z2.
find a £2K bike with that stuff on and it’ll kick the nuts of any £2K bike from a decade ago
I had a £2k bike in 1999. Full XT 3x9, v-brakes, Manitou SX ti forks with 80mm travel, Fox Vanilla shock. It wasn't until I bought another £2k bike ten years later that I realised just how flexy the whole thing was. But any £2k bike today will be far better to ride than either of those, despite being quite a lot heavier.
There has definitely been a lack of value in the whole industry since about 2014ish, back then an “entry level” FS (i.e. a good one like the Giant VT, Specialized Pitch, Cannondale Prophet) cost £1200-£1800ish which would now be £2k-£2.5k which is probably close to the current reality
True, I have linked the excelent spec Spectral 125 upthread (CF, GX, Lyric, DT Swiss etc...) which is around £2,300 and nowhere near entry level. In 2014 that would have been closer to £3,500 I think and without a dropper which is even more today when inflation adjusted.
I really think that we never had it so good in terms of value.
There’s some pretty epic deals around the 2k mark at the minute though. The Specialized Epic deal, the various Vitus / Nukeproof offers at Chiggle. No one is paying RRP for bike stuff any more, it’s a buyers market now.
Which means that the entire supply chain is running on wafer thin margins at best, if not an outright loss in places.
Which means debts right throughout the chain, low wages/job cuts at the front end and, as everyone goes after the big online deals, a worse market for the high street LBS.
It's really not a healthy situation at the moment - sure, a few people are going to get some good deals on new bikes or kit but medium term outlook is pretty bleak.