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TheSwede - MemberSS Stu has a big [s]pot[/s] bell[s]y[/s]end. That is all.
Ok, ok, but can you analyse it a bit more?
Could the same effect come from a longer wheelbase for example? Or from bigger softer tyres?
Tyre aspect - 29er tyre vs 26 tyre, everything identical, the 29 will have more grip. You can do two things, keep everything the same, reap more grip or go for a slicker 29er tyre, maintain equivalent grip but get better rolling resistance. I cant put numbers on it, i was a 100% cynic before i tried a 29er, the traction i could get on xc tyres was up there with 26 DH tyres.
Keeping momentum - a 29 will lose less momentum when hitting a bump than 26, so will keep more speed in bumpy situations, also helps out in steep tech with edges.
Accelerating - i was expecting acceleration to be rubbish on a 29er, i was wrong. Acceleration was no problem, plus i kept my speed better.
Handling -
I'd say your typical xc 29er handles more like a 26er hardcore hardtail (which STW loves). The wheelbase is longer, this gives stability.
The tyre trail (google it, the distance between the steering axis and contact patch) is larger than on a 26er, it sort of causes the same feeling as a slacker HA, builds in stability, much like a hardcore hardtail.
BB height makes a massive impact, you know how everyone wants slacker and lower, you can have the lower cake and eat it as it were on a 29er. What stops the bb getting too low on a 26 trail/xc bike is pedal strikes, on a 29er you can have the bb lower in relation to the wheel axles, this adds stability and security. It really installs confidence.
In a direct answer to your post, a 29er hardtail handles to me like a slack and stable 160mm bike with a big wheelbase and long chainstay, like a nukeproof mega for example, but without any hint of front end wander on climbs. Rolls faster, more efficient, more grip, more composed in technical terrain than a equivalent 26er hardtail.
To make a 26er 29er you'd need a ragley blue pig, cut out the bb, mount it lower, add a motor cos you cant now pedal, some pixie dust to stop the front end wandering on climbs then some magic 26er tyres which roll faster and grip better, maybe add in an inch or two of suspension that isn't really there to help momentum in the rough.
After a couple of years sans mountain bike, I'm thinking about either resurrecting my Klein Attitude or buying new.
I've no problem with buying a 29er, but I'd really like to know why they offer advantages over 26ers.
I suppose the problem is complicated by me not really liking suspension; I can manage forks, but I tried a full susser and never really got on with it; I'm a bit old school and would rather get battered/go slower on some bits than squish all day on a heavier bike.
How about trying a few out for yourself then.
Had the same 26er for years and am building a new 29er purely for something different. I'm not sure if it'll be better or worse but I'm excited to find out. I think making comparisons is a hard one and you have to ride lots of different bikes to get a good idea. Even between two or ten 26ers you will get loads of variation in how they ride, whether they are great decenders or climbers etc. So comparing two wheel sizes on two very different equipped bikes is even harder. What would be interesting would be to have two bikes with the same equipment on (except the obvious change in wheel size) and see how much difference there really is. Would we see what claimed that 29ers roll better and 26ers are better on twist stuff?
www.followingthechainline.blogspot.com
Bigger wheels roll better. In that, for any given bump the angle at which the tyre hits is shallower, resulting in less retarding force.
Extrapolate - imagine a cobbled street. Bumpy to ride a bike along. If you had a giant wheel 10m across, it wouldn't feel the cobbles. If you were on rollerskates, you'd be on your face.
Ok it's a small difference in this case but it's noticeable, on a bike you feel every newton of retarding force. Hardtail MTBs with 23mm tyres on are nothing like as quick as road bikes.
How about trying a few out for yourself then.
Aye, if you're in the market for a new bike then why wouldn't you?
Grum - It's a carbon stumpjumper with fox 34s. Very very impressed with it despite being a bit of a cynic for a long time. It's just so much fun, very confident and flattering. I'm not a total convert though, if I wasn't lucky enough to have a big bike and a jump bike as well as my regular mtb I'd still have one 26 bike I think.Youll have to have a go. We're probably going to be up at your bro's at New year...
Yeah wouldn't mind a go, sounds pretty sweet 🙂 Not sure yet if we're going snowboarding at New Year but if not it would be good to hook up for some biking. You should try and stop off and do some in the Lakes as well.
resulting in less retarding force.
We could definitely use that round here.
Hardtail MTBs with 23mm tyres on are nothing like as quick as road bikes.
Hmmm...
I started off riding an MTB on 23mm slicks, and I would agree that they are not as quick, but this adds little to the debate. I'm also aware of the bigger wheels go over the same size bumps quicker thing.
But again, no one has provided anything even approaching evidence that the 29er thing is an actual improvement. Given that the 26er MTB is a tried and tested and familiar concept to me, how's about some actual science that shows it to be so?
Can I duplicate the effect with a longer wheel base 26er?
Can I duplicate the effect with a bigger fork?
Can I duplicate the effect with a longer wheel base and a bigger fork and bigger tyres?
Why do I keep asking the same question and getting jeff all in reply?
I've ridden a cross bike for 2 years while my mountain bike gathers dust; it's not proved to be the equivalent.
Why do I keep asking the same question
Just go out and try a few different bikes instead then.
It's the only way to really know if you like it or not.
What's to lose?
Have to agree with the 29er evangelists here 😉 - if you're thinking about a new bike and are curious about 29ers surely the answer is to try riding some.
Given that the 26er MTB is a tried and tested and familiar concept to me, how's about some actual science that shows it to be so?
Who cares what science says?
But again, no one has provided anything even approaching evidence that the 29er thing is an actual improvement.
You've accepted that there's less rolling resistance with bigger wheels - don't you think that's an improvement?
What a load of old c**t this thread has become....crashtest above was close, I have friends in America and Canada, 2 of them ex DH factory riders and believe me the same argument does happen in North America too....Everyone rides different bikes for different reasons and yes 29ers are more common out there....My own take from listening to varying views is that if you're vertically challenged/totally gnarr-core 26ers are the staple...Taller bloke that rides wheels on ground/XC 29er ftw, mix and match that as you will, every size, height, rider, location, want, need, style, desire is different....Analyse what you want from your riding, what kind of riding you do, then make your choice...It's all bikes, it's all riding, it's supposed to be fun....keep arguing tho 🙄
grum.
You sound like the 29er evangelist now.
I suggested he
8)try a few different [b]bikes[/b]
Oh I'm totally onboard now adstick has got one - 26ers are soooo lame. I don't understand how people can actually ride those things. Urghhh! 🙂
I do think I remember you doing Belgium on a Cross bike? Chapeaux!
Yep a surly cross check, I rode there from Dorset, 7 one speed days on the road. Not a great choice of bike for that race, but it has won at Ashton court. Every dog has its day.
Change the subject - is there momentum for your mooted SSUK13 randonez format by the sea? Me (29er) the wife (26er) and our baby (OO) do hope so!
Yep. Around Xmas it will all be in place. The plan is sorted, I've got to see some farmers, punk bands, and cider makers first.
Who here can wheelie a 29" ?
I can't do wheelies on anything, but my failed attempts are better on a jones or Canfield, both of which have different approaches to the norm... Canfield has super short stays, jones has extra slopey seat tube. Point being there are some 29ers that are not difficult to get it up on.
I like my wheels on the ground and the ground feels smoother with bigger wheels 😉
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Think bike companies are trying to re-invent the wheel
They have just made it bigger
i've not trawled through the plethora of replies as it's time in my life I won't get back, but, happy to be shot down in flames if this has already been suggested.....Surely this whole post is a case of 'any PR is good PR' for the bike monger???? Is this an effort to keep a business in the public domain for free instead of paying a fee like the other businesses do as it's quite clearly an attempt to publicise a business.....
Nah, if you had read all the posts there is one where I explain my back ground in marketing, sales, brand management etc. I am really curious about how the 29er thing has been slow to be adopted, compared to discs or bar ends for example, and even the industry and media have been slow adopters... And then BOOM here we are.
And wiggle (for example) will benefit more from this than my business. it's just me, mrs bikemonger and captain the basset hound, I have enough work to do, finished work at 10pm tonight, and captain stole my scotch egg. And will be kicking off around day break tomorrow in the hope i can get out for the tuesday night ride. I am not here to drum up 29er sales. I have even stated 26 is just fine, and I don't even sell 26ers.
Chas le bike - I await Xmas and the details of a 'new' format for SSUK.
By which time this thread will have mutated into a fat vs. thin debate!
Fair comment Charlie The Bikemonger. An interesting debate, thank you. 😀
I am really curious about how the 29er thing has been slow to be adopted, compared to discs or bar ends for example, and even the industry and media have been slow adopters... And then BOOM here we are
Marketing hype and bandwagon fad... I've never seen a product shoved down peoples throats like the recent 29er push by the industry.
^ agree with paceman, good to see a post about the thinking surrounding it rather that what's 'best'.
I think if there had been a ~600-610mm BSD rim that was said to be MTB specifc the take-up could've been faster - there would have been no CX/road baggage. Let's face it, 29" started as an almost monster-x kind of bike. We'd have still been attached to 26" as the MTB 'identity' but like sus and other things, it may have been accepted as more of an option without that link.I am really curious about how the 29er thing has been slow to be adopted, compared to discs or bar ends for example, and even the industry and media have been slow adopters... And then BOOM here we are.
(and the 15-20mm diameter loss would make pretty much -- all difference to rolling feel but could help with clearances / geo, another fair reason the first 29ers weren't more widely embraced)
The bike 'industry' seems to evolve as a group of brands and sub-contractors so a major new standard is hard to bring to market, competitors often don't want to admit someone else did it right and first and then follow them. Or, innovators don't have the ££ to start soemthing from scratch and adapt what they can - ie all the wheels we choose from for an MTB are borrowed from other bikes.
I've never seen a product shoved down peoples throats like the recent 29er push by the industry.
I'm not aware of any 'pushing down throats'? This comment comes up a lot but media-thing-of-the-moment isn't quite the same as being force-fed it imo. Much of the media was anti it for a long time, a new wheel size really has to survive on its merits. No more 'pushing' than suspension, for example (all those HT vs FS tests got boring too). There's a lot of exposure for them yes, but it's something new for mags and forums to discuss and depite some brands doing what they think is commercially best (29er-only categories based on needing to sell what people seem to want in their most influential markets), it's still very much a buyer's market from what I see on this side of the trade.
If not enough people liked them, there wouldn't be a market. I say this a lot at the moment, but really, people give marketeers way too much credit for influence and power..
CTBM, the difference is clearly the cost of "entry" into the world of 29er, requiring a totally new bike. Even if someone is in the market for a new bike most of us on here at least are 'n+1' types, and have a garage/shed full of tyres and tubes, or nice wheels we chop and change between bikes depending on mood/riding.
Pragmatism and finances rather than cynicism might be the case for many?
When fork standards keep changing and a new set of suspension forks can be £800 then I think it's pushing credibility to suggest that all 26 er stuff is a cheap mix'n'match option.
I'm not aware of any 'pushing down throats'?
Magazines that hardly covered 29ers were suddenly covering them in every article, claiming them as the best thing since sliced bread, preaching "how could we have coped on 26" for so long". LBS now take stock and stick them at the front of house. Video's appearing attempting to show how much easier it was to climb on 29"... etc etc. All just at the same time as the industry produces swathes of new 29" kit... a co-incidence, I think not.
Do it for long enough, and people start to buy into it.
For the industry it's great - customers buying whole new kit, LBS's jump on the band wagon, obviously it's better to sell the customer a new bike rather than just the latest wheel set. Magazines get on board because they're told to by their clients who purchase large amounts of advertising space.
[quote=prezet ]
For the industry it's great - customers buying whole new kit, LBS's jump on the band wagon, obviously it's better to sell the customer a new bike rather than just the latest wheel set. Magazines get on board because they're told to by their clients who purchase large amounts of advertising space.
Very few LBSs will be relishing the adoption of 1 or 2 more wheel sizes. That's just more spares to keep and cuts down their options for getting a decent wholesale price on a buy of very small numbers.
Are people really going out and buying new bikes to replace their currently serviceable ones on the basis of a few magazine articles or are they actually just replacing when the older stuff starts to wear out?
In any case, I think you give too much credence to the idea of an all powerful media. Compared with the number of bikes sold in this country, magazine sales are pitiful
prezet +1. jameso - just go and take a look at a recent copy of MBR.
Anyhow. I can't see 26" disappearing as some seem to think as it would mean the more "normally sized" rider essentially not being able to ride in comfort.
Interesting debate, though. Apart from one brief bit somewhere, there wasn't really any "29ers are best 'cos I've got one" - very refreshing.
Firmly still in the 26" camp.
[quote=ononeorange ]
Anyhow. I can't see 26" disappearing as some seem to think as it would mean the more "normally sized" rider essentially not being able to ride in comfort.
Sorry, but for "normal sized" riders doing "normal" off-road biking, 29ers are perfect. Whether they are still perfect for doing trail centres is another matter.
Sorry, but for "normal sized" riders doing "normal" off-road biking, 29ers are perfect.
As are 26ers.
It certainly wasnt magazines or "the industry" that made me switch across. It was lining up at events earlier this year and seeing all the quick guys on big-wheelers. The penny really dropped when I did a multi day event in the summer with a pal I've always ridden at the same pace as......him on 29er, he was just drifting away from me every day, and as the week went on and we got more fatigued it was more and more apparent how much more beaten up I was. Lot of that is subjective of course but my Garmin tracks tell me I'm 4.5% faster on my local XC loop on a 29er Ti hardtail than the same in 26".
Fine if you're racing. I don't care how fast I go around some loop. I care about how much fun I have doing it.
Sorry, but for "normal sized" riders doing "normal" off-road biking, 29ers are perfect.
In your opinion, of course. Not in mine.
I'm not "resisting adoption". I just don't want one. Neither do my friends and relatives.
I'm not "resisting adoption". I just don't want one. Neither do my friends and relatives.
I was quite surprised when my brother turned up at my house on one... he knows nothing about bikes really, and this was apparently what the LBS picked out for him.
The next day I bought him a nice wicker basket to put on the front.
Perhaps some people just see it for the marketing hype that it is ?Magazines were slow on the uptake as there were none of the "big hitters" making them.Now there are, well it'd be daft not too wouldn't it if they want to survive...
Yes,I have got one & have had it for over 3 years now, as well as trying several other types.It's just a bike that is better on some things & worse on others,one cancels out the other imho & in the end the two are about equal.....
I think if I were buying my XC race bike now instead of 5 years ago it'd be 29er. In fact for the last few years the current model of that bike has been 29er only.
Funny you say that prezet my mate got a bike on the bike to work scheme and came back from shop with a spesh 29er , he didn't even know what it was and when I mention it was a 29er he had never heard of one
on a side not in a similar vein to druid, I prefer using a 29er in all places other than purpose built trail centres, but then that could be twofold , a. I don't particularly like purpose built trail centres and b. they are built by 26" wheel riders 😉
druidh - may I presume to ask how tall you are, please?
He's nearly a dwarf
This thread is like a Brant master class in viral marketing.
[quote=imnotverygood ]He's nearly a dwarf
That. 😆
5'7" actually. That puts me on a Medium Salsa El Mariachi or a Medium SC Tallboy. The XS Salsa is suitable for riders down to 5'1" so I guess that covers the majority of folk in the UK?
OK, I am really surprised. In my entirely unscientific poll on here, you are the first 29" rider under about 6'silly". I have long assumed that one had to be freakishly tall to even be able to get on one (no pun intended).