[Closed] 26 vs 650b vs 29 wheels

29er for me. But really do we need this again?
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colinpm1 - Member
I've got no great urge to change to a different wheel size but wondered what others thought?

I think if you've no great urge to change wheel size then get another 26.

There's a couple on this thread (you know who you are) who love this subject and spend far too much time debating the merits and the reasoning for the different wheels. As cool as that is, they could be spending that time practicing wheelies (yes, even in your head), which is x10 cooler.

[i]The next part of this post would be controversial so i decided not to post it.[/i]

For me, after riding a hardtail 29er and then realising that due to longstanding injuries that full suss short travel 29er was the way forward because,

it was stable
fast ...never really understood this getting the wheels going thang
rolled over things better than 26
pretty bloddy good in singletrack ...still learning berms
had enough travel for my north England riding
that 100mm or so made my trails interesting and enjoyable again

rode my 26 and it better in one place technical climbs, so sold 26 and now have a 100mm short travel bike and a 125mm long travel .very different bikes but for the timbering not changing.

As above ride and try

Rusty Spanner - Member
bellefied - Member
There is room in the market for three wheel sizes...........
Really?

Where do you get your evidence from?

All the bike shop owners I've spoken to have been saying that MTB sales are down by a significant amount, but they're shifting loads of road irons.

Who are all these riders that have been waiting for the withdrawal of 26inch and the introduction of a comparitively more expensive 650b model before buying a new bike?

And, as ever, could I ask that contributors please declare any industry involvement?

Ta.

This.

My lbs, albeit quite small, no longer has a full mtb range, they did have gt & Saracen, but now only low end gt stuff, as they just weren't selling any, and they're mtb guys at heart. Hybrids, commuters & road bikes flying off the rack though.

Has anyone mentioned that 650B brings the trail alive?

[img] [/img]

I don't get this. Everyone ranting about cynical marketing ploys, greed driven etc.

Everything they do & have done is driving towards one thing. Profit. Is everyone getting their knickers in a twist because they have just realised this?

[quote=Hob Nob ]I don't get this. Everyone ranting about cynical marketing ploys, greed driven etc.
Everything they do & have done is driving towards one thing. Profit. Is everyone getting their knickers in a twist because they have just realised this?

No not really but this time around your looking at an attempt to make current bikes obsolete and replace them with an incrementally small change that means new wheels/forks/frames with such a negligible (if any) advantage over 26" - not seen much that is outside the margin of error factor really.

Most people just buy the whole bike though. Only saddos (us) buy in bits. The needs of the many etc.

The only people spending too much time discussing 650b are the manufacturers.

650b makes very good sense to me.
This is the way all my bikes have been heading for years so to have a new standard that fits what I like is fine by me. I'm happy to have a bit less travel and get rid of those balloon tyres on 22inch rims thanks.

As ever can those that are just going to state their opinion 457 times on one thread to try and force their opinion down everyones throat please make it clear when contributing. 😉 Ta.

29ers for tall people.
26ers for everyone else.

I don't really get this. I'm a tall person - 29er frames aren't available in any larger sizes than 26ers and aren't more commonly available in large sizes either. I've just bought a full suss 29er, and with 'friends in the industry' and access too a handsome collection of trade accounts with distributors...... that gave me a choice of one obscure XL 29er frame, in stock (in a frankly shocking colour), in the UK. So whatever the motivations to manufacture 29ers are - bikes for tall people doesn't appear to be one of them.

There is room in the market for three wheel sizes...........
Really?
Where do you get your evidence from?

All the bike shop owners I've spoken to have been saying that MTB sales are down by a significant amount, but they're shifting loads of road irons.

Clothes shops aren't selling a lot of flared trousers either these day either. MTBs are out of fashion regardless of what size or shape they are.

No not really but this time around your looking at an attempt to make current bikes obsolete and replace them with an incrementally small change that means new wheels/forks/frames with such a negligible (if any) advantage over 26" - not seen much that is outside the margin of error factor really.

Regardless of rim size if you took a 2013 MTB and a 2003 MTB how many of the parts could you swap between them? You might get lucky with the seat post but thats about it really. If you wanted to put the 26" rims from your 2013 bolt-thru axelled tubeless disk-specific all-mountain trail iron on your old 8 speed rim braked whippet, or vise versa then you're going to have to get pretty busy with a spoke key. So rim sizes could change every year and it would do nothing more to increase the the obsolescence of your bike than any of the other changes in BBs, axels, brake mounts, headsets, fork heights, gear counts, handlebar widths and diameters, colours or what they taste like if you lick them.

Ultimately cycling is a fashion industry, theres no other reason for designers and manufacturers to change their line-up annually. Its a man thing to justify purchases in terms of empirical things like engineering, design, efficiency or whatever (like watch guff and car guff) and thats why changes in bike design are marketed with words about weight/strength/speed/efficinency. But the reality is we buy stuff because with think its pretty and voguish. "29ers for tall people." is an aesthetic judgement.

I don't really care about wheel size. I have 26" wheels, they are round and truish and work very well. If i can't ride over something i will get off the the bike and push. Buy what ever you think is right and don't worry about what others are saying/riding.

DP, sorry.

29ers for tall people:
Proportional sizing?
Do you use the same pressures, bar width and grips as a 5 footer?
Of course you don't.

MTB's are out of fashion, yes, I agree.
Is this more likely to be due to;
A. The mainstream acceptability of road cycling, combined with British success.
B. Disproportionate price rises in mtb bikes and components over the last few years.
C. Confusion over the myriad types of mtb available.
D. The lack of a third wheelsize.

I don't have a 10 speed, bolt through, tubeless, tapered all mountain bike.
And neither does 99% of the installed 26 inch user base.

As for fashion.
For some people, maybe.

Personally, spending money for the sake of it is neither fun nor fashionable.
Neither is being stitched up.

To me, cycling is about having fun.

You and your industry friends obviously see things differently.

Cycling is becoming the new Golf, but from what I've seen there are far more golfers willing to go out for a fair wether Sunday road ride than a messy Sunday on th trails.

As for place in the market of three wheel sizes, maybe that's true for manufacturers, but coupled with 1.5, 1.25, 1.125 steerer forks, the likelihood of any LBS being able to hold stock is getting smaller. If manufacturers go 650b, then stockists of 650b bikes will narrow their stock to 650b and keep only low end 26 stock for the masses of repairs which make up the majority of their business. 29" will likely become even more difficult, as it'll not be mainstream, and people using it (like myself) will find it difficult to find emergency supplies (tyres, rims, forks) in local bike shops.

Just my thoughts.

M

I find myself agreeing with Rusty Spanner and with maccruiskeen 🙂 We may have discussed this topic ad nauseum but I'm still finding snippets on this thread that are either changing the way I view things or helping to clarify my own thoughts, which is always good. Keep it up folks 🙂

The future is 16"!

I am intrigued by the idea that MTB is out of fashion. To me many of the current trends indicate the opposite and have been seen before in many sports - tennis, golf, squash (remember that?!?). I think MTB is at/just over its peak in popularity growth.

Is there a chance that none of this is malicious. Just perhaps the old industry standard (26 and my current choice) is not the optimum one? Perhaps the next suggestion (29) isn't either? Perhaps we now have a sensible compromise if not optimum choice for the majority of new buyers?

Happy to be proven naive in that suggestion!! FWIW, all this does for me is to delay my next purchase and that is hardly what the industry should have in mind!!

29ers for tall people:
Proportional sizing?

I agree a tall person looks more in proportion on a 29er but that's now how you should pick a bike?

I've rode big bikes and smaller bikes and it's a completely different riding experience. Both great but small does everything big does, but it doesn't work the other way.

Do you use the same pressures

bar width and grips as a 5 footer?

I'd make 650 the standard and be done with it. They make money and we, when we decide to change, get a slightly better* bike.

If you love you're 26, don't fret. Keep it. Plenty of retro bikes about. 26 can be neo retro. Parts? Of course but you'll not be riding it all the time so the lack of choice wont be an issue. Special Sundays when the suns a shining.

Same for 29. Except they'll be show ponies - novelty bikes that get the very occasional ride when friends are round everyone's tipsy.

*650b is, on paper, slightly more suited to what a mountain bike might be required to do for most people. This is reinforced somewhat by what riders are saying. I can't think of the disadvantages of a slightly bigger wheel. Except money, and you don't have to buy until you are ready and happy to.

I can't think of the disadvantages of a slightly bigger wheel.

A slightly bigger wheel means slightly longer chain stays and/or a slightly bigger BB drop, which makes lifting the front wheel slightly harder. It's not a big difference (plenty of folk can manual a 29er) but many of us are crap enough at manuals on a 26" bike if we are honest, so why make it harder. I just don't buy the idea that a 650b is better than 26. Different, yes. Better, no.

It might be [i]slightly[/i] harder, but come on, lifting the front isn't difficult*, so making it slighlty harder is no biggie. If you (not you in particular) are struggling lifting the front, then the slightly better rolling might help.

*If someone is crap at manuals they can either practice them or do something else. The ability to pull a short manual is useful on some trails and most people could do a short one with a little practice. Long ones are for show, so if you wanna show off, then practice even ore. A bike wont manual for you, no matter how small the wheels are.

Would you not tolerate a bike that was a tiny, tiny bit harder to do one thing, to be done with these threads? 😀

As I say it's not a big difference, but I can't see how a wheel that is a bit heavier, a bit weaker and a bit harder to get off the ground can be deemed to be undoubtedly better. But I tend to agree with you. If it would mean the end of the wheelsize debate I'd accept all bikes being 650b.

Not being funny, but when was the last time you broke a wheel? I've wrecked one 26 mtb wheel in 6 years. It wasn't a particularly strong wheel and it was a big and freakish crash. Strength would be fine. Same with weight. None of my 26' wheels weight the same. I can get lighter if i spend more. Maybe if it all settles down, they (manus) can concentrate on lighter/stronger 650 stuff along with fine tuning geo.

And the debate thing is alright today - i'm in work so it's help pass the time. But if i'm out for a ride somewhere in a few years and rip a tyre, it'd be nice to know any bike shop will have a replacement for me.

Can you see all those xc racers giving up 29ers?

They'll often ride what they are given, admittedly, but it'll be a big U turn when it comes to racing and how the riders feedback counts, etc, etc.

I've said before, I can't get why (Giant not included) the 'industry' is sounding the death knell for the 26er but if if 650b really is the best of both world's why others aren't saying it would kill both sizes.

That said, is now a good time to admit I've just bought a 29er?!

It's been said before, but whenever everyone is on the same sized wheels, then where's the advantage? It might be easier on bigger wheels, but do top riders/racers want it to be easy or a challenge. I'd say challenge.

Enjoy the new bike 😀

🙂 Don't worry I still have a 26er fs. But I wanted a 29er ht for mile munching and xc duties.

/racers want it to be easy or a challenge

Neither - they want to win!

Not being funny, but when was the last time you broke a wheel?

Not broke, but as it happens I've just been taking a buckle out of a 26" Hope/Flow Ex wheel. OK, I'm a clumsy bugger, but a mountain bike wheel can take a bit of a hammering over rocky ground.

Not that I've got anything against bigger wheels. I've got a 29er hardtail, which is great in some areas (and not so good in others). I wouldn't even have a problem with a few manufacturers bringing out 650b bikes and trying to convince people that they were better. It is the wholesale movement of the industry to a new standard overnight with no discussion and no evidence that it's any better than the old one that bugs me.

It is the wholesale movement of the industry to a new standard overnight with no discussion and no evidence that it's any better than the old one that bugs me.

That reminds me of the Henry Ford quote "If I'd asked people what they wanted, they would have said a faster horse."

OP seems to have disappeared, he's probably off buying a road bike.

It is the wholesale movement of the industry to a new standard overnight with no discussion and no evidence that it's any better than the old one that bugs me.

On what evidence was 26" adopted in the first place? I'm not any kind of wheel size evangelist. As a slow burning serial upgrader a change in wheel size was something I was unlikely to make anytime soon (or anytime ever) until theft left me with a clean slate. I bought a 29er because it was what was in the shop. If something else had been in the shop I'd have bought that instead.... and stuck with it for 10 years regardless of whether 100 more wheel sizes appeared or they never changed again. But between the bike I lost and the bike I bought - almost nothing is the same - the different size tyres is just the start. The top headset race, the bar diameter at the grips and the bit that holds the saddle, the pedal axels the same as my old bike. The seat clamp was familiar looking. That is really. And I didn't consider my old bike to be old - I'd only had the frame for two rides. So it was new, but it was to all intents and purposes it was new old stock as it was pretty much the only FS frame I could buy that my existing wheels and forks could be bolted on to.

I'm baffled by the conservatism over wheel size and the desire for there to be some sort of evidential basis for change when the the existing standard was entirely arbitrary. When every other component of the MTB package has changed and changed again- how is a rim/tyre size, that never had a reason to be bolted to an off-road bicycle other than they both happened to already be available, treated with so much fear and suspicion? Its almost as if the rim was the definition of the whole sport.

I think the ability to set new rim sizes shows that the sport has reached a maturity. The tyre is pretty much the most capital-hungry part of the bicycle. I've got the odds and ends to make pretty much all of a bike from scratch (if not the actual inclination of skill) - I can bend,cut and join tubes, mill and lathe blocks of metal, tap threads. I could make a bike with any geometry and make hub, headset and BB of any form factor I choose to dream up. It would probably take me all year to make a functioning 12 speed gear set that is so obviously the way forward - but it could be done. It would probably be another years work to make the cable outers for my new 1.33333 recurring cable standard. That would be tedious. Rims are a bit of a stretch but re-rolling and pinning existing ones isn't (presuming you have a larger one to start with) - as is a saddle you'd actually want to sit on but if the forumites of STW pooled their resources we could sort that together. But what we couldn't do, all of us put together with all our clever arses and all our sheds combined - is we couldn't make a tyre. A tyre, and a change in tyres, is a big, big deal. It either means the technology to make tyres is getting cheaper or the market is big enough to make the capital costs worth while.

With all the 26" bikes out there, 20 years of pub-bikes, blatters and argos specials - if I made a new 26" tyre tomorrow and it was an absolute stinker - sloppy, slippy, heavy and ugly (maybe not even properly round) I could still sell it somewhere, eventually. But if I make a new tyre [i]standard [/i]tomorrow I've only got anyone who might buy a bike from tomorrow onwards to sell to. Thats brave.

So to me it seems to mark a point where bicycles can get more interesting. Is that not good?

On the 29ers for tall people note before, I don't think big wheels are specifically any more suited to tall riders. I think the compromises are much less of an issue though. Shorter riders specifically don't want high front ends, longer chainstays/wheelbases and high standover.

I think the lower center of gravity in relation to wheels works in our favour too.

6'6" rider on both an XXL (23"!) Stumpy FSR 29er and XXL Stumpy HT 29er. Both bizarrely look very well proportioned, unlike every 26" bike I've ever had.

650b if you find the range of tyres available for 26 inch too confusing.

(I had a choice of 2 sarky answers here, the other was "650b if you've bought into the advertising that says you need something bigger than 26, but you're too afraid of change to buy something that makes any actual difference")

650b if you find the range of tyres available for 26 inch too confusing.

That's a really good answer.

What tyres for 650b thread time 😉

I'm baffled by the conservatism over wheel size and the desire for there to be some sort of evidential basis for change when the the existing standard was entirely arbitrary. When every other component of the MTB package has changed and changed again- how is a rim/tyre size, that never had a reason to be bolted to an off-road bicycle other than they both happened to already be available, treated with so much fear and suspicion? Its almost as if the rim was the definition of the whole sport.

Just wondered maccruiskeen if you don't know why 26 was adopted how do you know it was arbitrary ?

maccruiskeen - Member
I'm baffled by the conservatism over wheel size and the desire for there to be some sort of evidential basis for change when the the existing standard was entirely arbitrary.

So it's perfectly acceptable to inconvenience an installed user base of millions by picking an arbitrary wheel size without evidence as to any real benefit?

I think the ability to set new rim sizes shows that the sport has reached a maturity.

So to me it seems to mark a point where bicycles can get more interesting. Is that not good?

Increasing wheelsize by an insignificant amount and claiming it as a genuine innovation, or as something 'interesting', whilst increasing the price and threatening to remove any alternative is frankly appalling.
As is any attempt to justify it.

Rusty Spanner - Member

And, as ever, could I ask that contributors please declare any industry involvement?

Ta.

I'm not in the bike industry - I just think that there are loads of manufacturers out there; specialized, trek, giant, cannondale, GT, cube, felt, merida, orange, cotic, etc. If only one of them keeps offering a 26" bike, and there is a demand for those bikes then the others will step back in.

And, as ever, could I ask that contributors please declare their love of paranoia?

Ta.

My tuppence worth, bikes have went probably as far as they can now (only small tweaks) forks good,brakes, gears and rear shocks good. So how do the big companies sell more bikes they tell you 26 is wrong , they do not reinvent the wheel they reinvent the wheel size, 26 has been here long enough that there will be parts for long and weary, 29 or 650b one is gonna be the new betamax.

Wonder when will the EU step in and fine all bike companies for "wheel fixing"...as it is all a conspiracy isnt it? 😉

maccruiskeen - Member

I'm baffled by the conservatism over wheel size

OK, let me explain, I think you've missed the point. Unhappiness over the 650b fiasco isn't due to people thinking "26 inch is the best". It's simply due to people believing that the difference you get with the small change in size, is not worth the high cost of the change. If we were to choose a new wheel size from scratch then perhaps 26 inch wouldn't be the one you'd arrive at, but that's irrelevant. 650b doesn't just have to be demonstrably better than 26 (which it isn't IMO), it has to be massively better to justify replacing forks and frames, rendering old parts obsolete, etc. And I don't think [i]anybody[/i] believes that's the case.

Also it's made it embarassingly obvious that changes in bike design aren't performance-driven... You have Santa Cruz admitting that the difference is too small to make a difference and that it's entirely sales driven, Giant falling over themselves to tell you that their 29ers which were the Next Big Thing actually suck...

So in short- nobody objects to 650b in itself, they object to industry bullshit at customer's expense.

Anyone who has been riding a few years will have likely acquired a selection of tyres, maybe some spare wheels.

If you buy a new bike you could make the choice of buying a 29er and accepting that the spares were only fit for ebay, or you bought a 26. What it seems is the industry has decided that you won't have this choice. Your spare tyres are pointless, spare wheels ditto. For those who want race wheels, or spare tyres, your not only talking about buying a new bike but new parts as well.

I might not be convinced by 29ers but can see they might offer some benefits to some riders, but going from 26"-650b! The fact that you can swap the wheels between some frames sums up the scale of change!

With MTB sales on the decline, at least ime, how many shops are going to be carrying spares for three standards? And if you have a think about how many hub standards there are now in circulation have a think about how many wheels you have to have to have a spare for any bike you might meet.

bellefied - Member
And, as ever, could I ask that contributors please declare their love of paranoia?

Ta.

As Northwind says, a couple of industry execs have already been caught slagging off 650b before remarkably having a change of heart and offering bikes for sale.

I think it's fair to get an idea if your views are influenced by your desire to sell the only bikes the manufacturers are now willing to supply you with.

I think the ability to set new rim sizes shows that the sport has reached a maturity.

a couple of industry execs have already been caught slagging off 650b before remarkably having a change of heart and offering bikes for sale.