For anyone who wants to come for a little paddle in my think tank, I thought I'd just run this up the flag pole and see who salutes.
STW, using their trade connections, get hold of two bikes, as near identical as possible, except that one is a 26er, the other is a 29er.
They fit a Powertap to the rear wheel of each.
They then do a number of test rides with different routes and riders to compare power outputs.
Now, here's the good bit...
STW then lend the bikes to someone else to do the same.
This could be someone they trust to borrow two bikes, or it could be someone who has paid a deposit as security.
That person then does their own tests, and passes the bikes on to the next person.
The only condition is that everyone logs their ride by GPS and uploads the results.
So, lets assume STW have done their tests and I'm next on the list.
I send them £3000, or whatever, as security, they send me the bikes.
I ride a local 10 mile loop on one then the other.
I upload the GPS log of both rides to Endomondo or similar.
The next person on the list only lives 20 miles away, so I deliver the bikes to save on postage.
He sends £3000 to STW, I get a £2990 refund to allow for admin and wear & tear.
While I'm there, we both do a short loop on each bike and upload the GPS log.
He then goes on to do his own longer test, then passes the bikes on to the next person.
And so it goes on, gradually accumulating more data.
I'm just using the forum as an effective runway for project take off. We're a long way from ringfencing the unicorn on this one, but I thought it would be best to bowl a few ideas your way to see if anyone hits a six..
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26 v 29. This should settle it once and for all.
Your kidding aren't you...
apart from the simple one of finding enough people the same size who like to ride similar trails on similar bikes in a similar way.
You've heard of the expression garbage in garbage out? I have a horrible feeling you'd just be generating slightly higher quality garbage.
For the love of God, somebody give that man some bacon. 😯
I have no inclination to even try a 29er thanks as there's nowt wrong with either of my 26ers.
& I couldn't afford another bike anyway.
There is a flaw in your execution, you're confusing marketing bullshit and the bike industry's need to constantly sell us new stuff vs the fact that 99.9% of folk couldn't give a toss as to the argument 26"r vs 29'r, for those .01% who fret about whether or not they have the correct bike i have come to this conclusion, you'll never have the correct bike so stop worrying and just go ride.
MTG, I like your thinking, but just one modification.
Add a 20" wheel bike to that line up to prove once and for all, small wheels are better. 🙂
Too much "management speak" for my liking. I'm afraid anyone who talks like that simply can't be trusted IME.
I'm just using the forum as an [b]effective runway for project take off[/b]. [b]
We're a long way from ringfencing the unicorn on this one,[/b]
but I thought it would be [b]best to bowl a few ideas your way to see if anyone hits a six.[/b].
coolhandluke - Member
Too much "management speak" for my liking. I'm afraid anyone who talks like that simply can't be trusted IME.
You do know he's joking? 😉
pretty much seals the deal for me...
Should we start a new thread? does owning a 29er turn you into a troll?
Damn,
I just had a rant on a similar thread about this crap....
wait a minute, I just had a thought.
In all what I have said so far, I have gone on about numbers and evidence and the lack of it.
Well, while I was making a brew it came to me. We don't need evidence. People generally believe what they want to believe regardless of if any evidence exists or not. Even when there is overwhelming evidence against their beliefs, they will discount it, however robust, and believe any old crap that supports their hypothesis.
MTG.
I'm liking your blue sky, joined up thinking. There's general saluting in my corner. I'm liking the choice between big or small. Bigger is always better, unless its tech. Then it needs to be slimmer. Big but slim. There is no point doing exhaustive scientific testing if you limit the possiblities. Surely there's another way? Something in the middle between big and small. Can we send out smoke signals and brainstorm this thing?
Yeah but which bike do you ride the loop on first? Presumably you'll be fresher on the first loop and so your experiment would be false.
OR
The second loop you know the trail and current conditions better and can wang it on the second loop and so your experiment would be false.
OR
Nobody cares about this experiment and so your experiment is false 😀
It's a silly test because we all now know that 650b is faster than both of them.
Or we could all meet up for a fun bike ride and a beer.
Who the he'll can afford as powertap let alone lend it out
No, no I have it - it will all work but only if we use pairs of identical twins
29 v 26 who cares really, i'd just prefer to be riding a bike, whatever size wheels its got
Good one Graham, and you got biters too! Pity the game was given away too early as this could have been a giggle.
You can do all this research and publish your results but I'd be amazed if it changed the way everything is going.
[Disclaimer: I have a 29er single speed and a 26er geary HT and both are lovely bikes that I really enjoy riding].
It's obvious the one that is the quickest is the fastest...............
I'm in. Who do I send the money to?
I don't think everyone is singing from the same hymn sheet here.
Anyone who's met MTG will know that the management speak is a very obvious pee take 🙂
heavy_rat - bank account and personal details to the email in my profile, please.
MTG - To get statistically relevant data you'd need to do many back to back rides on both bikes, not just one and then pass them on. Even then, conditions, fatigue, etc are not consistent.
Besides, everyone knows that 36er are the fasterest.
You do know he's joking?
I would have got away with it too, if it wasn't for these meddling kids.
I didn't take it too seriously because I now it will never happen.
However; Most manufacturers supply test bikes to magazines, they also supply demo bikes to shops or for dedicated demo days.
Wiggle do a 30 day return policy on new bikes.
The idea of lending someone a bike or two for a few days is not revolutionary.
The Powertap's the big thing though.
I think they're about £1000 and the nature of the test means you'd need two of them, but without it, we're back to anecdotes.
Isn't there some new cheaper pedal mounted alternative ? Maybe that would work.
Or, to modify the original idea and do away the magazine's involvement, how about one of the big manufacturers takes a couple of PowerTap wheels to one of their demo days.
They could swap the wheels between bikes and build up same data over time.
Shimano's engineers need to make a test rider with those colleges full of 11 year olds that make dancing robots.. a robot test rider, that's one massive variable removed ) only a bit more expensive than 2 powertap set ups too.
Did someone mention robot test rider?
[b]DD209[/b]
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Already done the Powertap thing: [url] http://magazine.bikeradar.com/2012/11/15/matt-pages-wheel-size-test-the-results/ [/url].
It would be nice to return to that and test in a different course. At the end of the day though, those who are willing to listen will take the results on board for what they are but you will always have people who think the bike industry is trying to rob them of every penny they have or the test was biassed or any other obscure idea.
Is 29er faster most of the time? Yes.
Is 650b noticeable over 26" to me? Yes.
Does everyone need to change? No. But personal experience is that everyone who has moved to 29er has converted.
Hi MidlandTrailquestGraham, If you don't mind I would like your advice on a totally different subject.
I recently bought a Lynskey Ridgeline 29 and (having previously ridden a Alfine 8 for sometime with no probs), fitted a new Alfine 11 to the Lynnskey. To say the Alfine 11 has been a crap would be an understatement!
Am I right in thinking that you have a Rohloff HG and have done a fair bit of riding on it? If so what do you reckon, has it been reliable/robust? Is the talked about drag feel in some gears for real and is it much of an issue? etc
I do like the HG concept, don't mind the little extra weight. I now just want a Hub gear that does what it is supposed to and lasts!
Any feed back would be appreciated.
mtbmatt - But personal experience is that everyone who has moved to 29er has converted.
Does that mean that everyone who has not moved is converted to 26.
Is 29er faster most of the time? Yes.
Is 650b noticeable over 26" to me? Yes.
Most of the time? Maybe. All of the time? Unlikely.
Some courses suit 29", some 26". Some suit FS, some HT. Some say a 650b is the perfect inbetween, some say it's a half-arsed compromise.
Sometimes a 24" rigid bike is just the most fun..
.
Seriously, as a racer I would love to know the answer as to which is fastest, but I suspect that like the FS/HT toss-up it will depend on the rider, the course, the weather, far too much stuff to measure acurately.
Your test is one of the best I've seen so far Matt, but there is still a lot unaccounted for (and probably unmeasurable anyway, like the fatigue Vs course knowledge balance, as one goes up so does the other)
.
Another one I've just thought of is familiarity. Someone who is used to 29" will probably be able to push the 29er harder, someone who is used to 26" will be able to push the 26er hardest. Maybe we need roadies or BMXers to do the test for us to remove these variables?
Am I the only one who keeps getting sucked into reading these 26er-v-29er threads?
Note to self: ignore any threads with the 26er or 29er included into the thread title...
To be fair, this is one of the better ones Jim...
29 v 26 who cares really, i'd just prefer to be riding a bike, whatever size wheels its got
This.
Also, don't forget the shed test. You need a 6ft shed filled with a scientifically derived amount of ancillary crap and you have to be able to fit both bikes in it*.
No good having a snazzy new bike if you have to leave it out in the garden for birds to poo on.
*Not all of us are allowed to keep their [sorry] [i]quiver of steeds[/i] [/sorry] in the house.
Rachel
Maybe we need roadies or BMXers to do the test for us to remove these variables?
We could get the roadies to test the technical downhill and twisty bits and the BMXers the fireroad climbs. That would certainly help to eliminate the variables.
[i]Does that mean that everyone who has not moved is converted to 26.[/i]
What I meant is anyone who has tried 29er for any length of time - not just a short demo or a hop around a car park is convinced of the benefits.
[i]Seriously, as a racer I would love to know the answer as to which is fastest, but I suspect that like the FS/HT toss-up it will depend on the rider, the course, the weather, far too much stuff to measure acurately.
Your test is one of the best I've seen so far Matt, but there is still a lot unaccounted for (and probably unmeasurable anyway, like the fatigue Vs course knowledge balance, as one goes up so does the other)[/i]
If you want to know, try and do some testing yourself. Thats the only way that you will really convince yourself, but I'd be prepared to bet money on the outcome. The testing was a thorough as I could make it. Fatigue was not an issue, nor is course knowledge.
SO ****ING TIRED OF THESE THREADS
I had a quick test on a Trek 69er, the bike was FAR faster forwards than backwards, indicating the 29er wheel was much faster.
Toasty - Member
I had a quick test on a Trek 69er, the bike was FAR faster forwards than backwards, indicating the 29er wheel was much faster.
That can't be right. A smaller wheel at the front would be more aerodynamic, so a 96er would be best. There must be another variable at play here, and I know that's true because Penny Farthings aren't as fast as modern bikes. Can MTG get us a 69er and 96er with Powertaps too?
SO **** TIRED OF THESE THREADS
I agree ...
Trek 69er, the bike was FAR faster forwards than backwards, indicating the 29er wheel was much faster.
No I don't ... theres mileage in them still ...
😀
SO **** TIRED OF THESE THREADS
I love 'em. I'll probably start another one tomorrow.
Well I had my first ride off-road on a 29er today. Was much faster than my largely identical 26er (which I borrowed the saddle, cranks and pedals from). I have to admit I was a lot more impressed with its capabilities than I expected to be - the larger wheel genuinely did seem to roll over stuff better.
As much as I dislike them, I have been doing some 29er testing of my own recently. Results - meh.
On some short trails on a local loop myself and another rider swapped between a brand new 120mm full sus 29er, and my zesty (with forks set at 120mm) both with comparable tyres. On a rolling start there was little to separate the two bikes. The 29er was grippier and more predictable, but not faster. The zesty "felt" much faster, and much more fun.
From a standing start the 29er got smoked every time. I was expecting it to accelerate slower but not that much slower. Throwing in some jumps on the trail though really left it floundering as it was nigh on impossible to get the front wheel up. On the climbs and on flatter less twisty trails the 29er was less work, it seemed to need less rider input, perhaps less involving but again not discernibly much faster if any. Maybe over much longer trails that might manifest in quicker times as riders stay fresher.
So what the OP is suggesting is something like [url= http://www.pinkbike.com/news/26-vs-275-vs-29-Wheels.html ]this[/url], but with power outage as well?
Sorry, specializedbear, I overlooked this yesterday.
Hi MidlandTrailquestGraham, If you don't mind I would like your advice on a totally different subject.
I recently bought a Lynskey Ridgeline 29 and (having previously ridden a Alfine 8 for sometime with no probs), fitted a new Alfine 11 to the Lynnskey. To say the Alfine 11 has been a crap would be an understatement!
Am I right in thinking that you have a Rohloff HG and have done a fair bit of riding on it? If so what do you reckon, has it been reliable/robust? Is the talked about drag feel in some gears for real and is it much of an issue? etc
I do like the HG concept, don't mind the little extra weight. I now just want a Hub gear that does what it is supposed to and lasts!
Any feed back would be appreciated.
Yes, I've got a Lynskey Ridgeline 29 with a Rohloff.
In short, yes;
I think it's more reliable than derailleurs.
I don't think there's a significant difference in weight, and I definitely don't notice the rearward weight distribution problem that other people complain of, even compared to riding the same bike SS.
There were some thorough tests done by The Human Powered Vehicle Club, or someone like that, which showed that in some gears the Rohloff was more efficient than derailleurs. Overall, there wasn't much in it.
Awesome job MTG, now this one is sorted I hear the Korean peninsular needs a little work..... also we need to know if red or black is faster
Cheers for your advice on the Hub Gear. All the best. Graham