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According to the BOE inflation calculator £2500 in 2002 is worth £3700 in 2016...
yes - but that's only part of the picture isn't it?
Which is why I said 'all things considered' ...
Using the BOE inflation calculator alone shows that a pint of Guinness costing £1 in 1984 should only cost £2.95 in 2016 whereas I've been regularly paying anything from £3.80 to £4.80 for the past couple of years.
That's because of a change in duty though isn't it...it's as accurate example as you are going to find especially with orange still constructing bikes now as they did in 2002....
And yet, at this time of year it seems there's an annual Orange bashing thread. Could you point me in the direction of the annual Yeti, Mondraker, Hope, Spesh etc thread?
I'll try to get onto this next week.
Very busy at the moment though so can't promise.
.it's as accurate example as you are going to find especially with orange still constructing bikes now as they did in 2002....
But are we talking about the cost of Orange frames or the cost of complete Orange bikes? And the huge hike in prices of rear shocks etc?
From memory the cost of a Patriot frame only (with an awful basic rear shock) was just shy of £1k in 2002. Factoring in inflation, that would be about £1.5k in 2016. Add in a bit extra to reflect the change in shock prices and the difference isn't that huge I don't think.
The big increase in the price of complete bikes is in part to do with cost of imported components which have increased hugely over the past few years - and likely to increase even more over the next few years ...
So how do Bird, airstrip etc all do it? Are they buying inferior components? I'm afraid from where I stand they have increased over and above. Especially when you consider the value offered by other males.
That said let's not get away from the fact their antiquated construction methods limits the amount of frames they actually can produce so they will work off the logic of complete bikes being at a price the market can stomach vs their supply.
I do however understand it's easy to jump on the 'overpriced filing cabinet!' Bandwagon but it's very difficult to justify the pricing of some of their taiwan imported hardtails
So how do Bird, airstrip etc all do it? Are they buying inferior components? I'm afraid from where I stand they have increased over and above. Especially when you consider the value offered by other males.
Because they have business models that rely on cheaper labour for manufacture and direct sales to cut out dealer margins. Was anyone doing direct sales twenty years ago?
Be glad that nowadays you have these alternatives because with the extremely low value of sterling vs yen and the low value of sterling vs dollar, plus the large increase in wages in the Far East, anyone using the traditional business model has to sell for a lot more here now.
Because they have business models that rely on cheaper labour for manufacture and direct sales to cut out dealer margins. Was anyone doing direct sales twenty years ago?
But we have already established that the frames are by and large the same price as Orange therefor the 'cheap' labour is somewhat of a moot point. If anything it suggests that Orange are 'cheap' for a frame only purchase. All of my new oranges have been frame only purchases, the build spec of their complete bikes is always too much of a compromise for what I perceive as value.
Worth noting you can also buy an Orange direct. Dealer margins (I'm reliably told) are very small compared to other manufacturers.
I have always been a massive fan of Orange and the whole ethos, hell I even forgave their pricing given the supposed support. But for me when it went wrong the back up was poor, really poor something that historically was always hailed as being 'one of the best'. This has changed since the buy out, also coincided with further price hikes and more QC issues.
I think part of it might be the fact they are British , 4K for a Santa Cruz or 6k for an intense from California seems a bit more reasonable as they're from far away , have fancy race teams and make cool videos .
Orange are from Halifax which is not exotic and hard to get excited about ( Halifax not orange ) and don't seem to have a massive presence on the ews or world cup dh , at least anymore .
I rember looking at fives once and the upgrade to a reverb was basically rrp of a reverb which did seem a bit weird, 10% off wouldn't hurt surely.
I
I've just got myself a Stage 5. The main reason for me buying it is that I've had 5 'high end' carbon frames in the last five years. Each one of which has cracked.
I'm also sick of messing around with expensive bottom brackets which need new bearings every three months.
I bought the frame only with rockshox shock as the upgrade to the fox shock is more than what my LBS would sell me the fox shock for. The upgrades on the bikes are not good value.
I think the base model 5 is reasonable value. The bottom of the range Specialized enduro is now £3000.
When you buy an Orange and click on the spec' changes is it built by the retailer or do they then order it in from Orange?
Does any other dealer network bike manufacturer offer this level of individual customisation?
I had a 5 a while back, bought it new for about £2.2k sold it after 4 years for about 1k. Stuck with HT's for a bit and then started looking at FS again as n+1. Dithered about a 5 and bought a Giant Anthem for much less. Sold that last Christmas and very nearly bought a 4, but ended up with a new Anthem, with better kit than the 4, incl carbon wheels, for around 1k less than the 4.
I like Orange bikes but struggle with the price. That said, I'd have loved a 5010 but it cost even more !
but it's very difficult to justify the pricing of some of their taiwan imported hardtails
Thing is though that when I got my p7 a few months back I looked for all the comparable bikes that made it look expensive but they were not there. Stif Morf cost more, lower spec Chameleon cost more, Cotic was very similar, Bird was very similar, etc. The fact was that the p7 I got was specced well vs the competition. They've gone up a bit now but still won't be a mile off, especially when everyone else releases 2018 prices.
How much would you expect to pay for a steel hardtail with 1x11 Shimano, Yari, a decent frame and better than no name finishing bits?
more QC issues.
Genuine question. What are these QC issues which have increased recently?
What are these QC issues which have increased recently?
dont know about qc issues, but i know they have a long queue of customers waiting to get their Alpines [s]bodged[/s] re welded.
3 in my peer group, i wonder how many nationwide.
Of the 3 in your peer group, are the problems withIn the frame or swing arm, ton? Just asking as I have a 2 month old Four, so want to know what to keep an eye on.
tenfoot, pretty sure it is frame, near pivot mount iirc.
one of the older sweary lot is on his third orange. other 2 snapped.
i personally think orange bikes are shyte. and in my experiance, a shyte company to deal with. others may disagree.
I like the way you spell shite with a y Ton. Seems to amplify the shiteness, shyte is even shiter than shite.
😆
Alpine has issues with swing arm and main frame by pivot, as so the early fours it would appear. Also frame sbeing sent out new 5mm out of line and coined as being within tolerance. Absolute shower...it's all over the facebook page but gets removed by the admin. So much so a specific Orange owners with fracked frames group was set up.
I understand things go wrong, it's the nature of the beast. It's how things are handled that's important and Orange have not shrouded themselves in glory here. Maybe they are overwhelmed, who knows? But for me a great British company pricing the way they have recently and offering a not great after sales service is a real shame.
Maybe my own experience was isolated (I know it wasn't) I also understand that those whom have been let down are the vocal minority. I just hope they get their shit together and fast, as a world without Orange MTb would be a much poorer place
So much so a specific Orange owners with fracked frames group was set up.
You got a link to that?
one of the older sweary lot is on his third orange. other 2 snapped.
Mmm... weren't a number of the 'Sweary Northerners' Team Orange/Orange Factory riders? ... that's how they were listed on 'Roots & Rain' anyway
Those Sweary Northerner's videos from a few years ago were like an advert for Orange Bikes ... so I find it kindof odd that they should slag them off so much ... which if true is not really appropriate behaviour for 'brand ambassadors'.
weren't a number of the 'Sweary Northerners' Team Orange/Orange Factory riders?
a couple are.
Sod Sunset, when do Orange put the new bikes on their website?
weren't a number of the 'Sweary Northerners' Team Orange/Orange Factory riders?a couple are.
I wonder if Greg Minnaar slagged off Santa Cruz when he snapped a frame when he hit that post recently ... 😉
There does seem to be more cracked frames about although I have no idea if that is actually the case or if it's just a vocal minority.
To balance things up I have had nothing but excellent customer service from them over many years which is one of the reasons I keep buying 'em. If that changed I would look further afield.
Orange are from Halifax which is not exotic and hard to get excited about
Wash your mouth out! tsk 👿
Six of use have had or still own post 2016 frames .two have failed one at the down tube near pivot and one at the down tube cross ..both got sorted with in weeks
There does seem to be a greater number of frames failing perhaps the push for a having 1.85g frames off every frame is taking its toll .As a member on a few pages it's only this past 2 years I've see so many problems ...
Still most to to knowledge get sorted with relative ease
Goldigger - I've got a 2017 Five. Spec is custom (basically Factory but no carbon or Eagle and with Hope cranks and Zee brakes). Bike weighs 31lb with proper tyres and pedals. It's bloody mint - very versatile and great fun to ride (I ride only natural trials, Pennies and Lakes). Frameset will be reliable too - I owned a 2013 Five and that was trouble-free. Can't speak for the parts. I demoed an Alpine 6 and Stage 5 too, both great in their own way. Overall, for me this Five is the best bike I've owned.
Still happy with my 2010 Five. Should have bought frame only as the only original part still on it is the front wheel. The complete bikes do seem poor value for money. If you have the parts from your previous bike or need to get some new shiny bits, that's the way to go. It's a shame to hear about frames cracking and poor customer service, I hope they haven't been knocking them out willy nilly and hiking the price up just to rip us off?!
The price of bikes in general has gone totally nuts - I know you can get reasonable deals out there, but £7-8k bikes is insane! A few years ago none of us (apart from the seriously rich) would have even considered this. I think it's now just a case of who turns up at the trail centre with the flashiest bike competition and can't ride worth a ****! Just like these folks who go out and buy a Ferrari and crash it 10mins out the showroom 🙄
I love my old five - it's a pig to pedal, but point it downhill and the smile on my face says it all! Bombproof
Wl
I've got a 2014 5, I bought the frame for £1300 new and built it up myself.
Pike RCT3 150mm
CCDB air CS
Saint brakes
XT 1x11
Flow EX on Hope pro 2 evo SP
Renthal carbon lite bars
Renthal Duo stem
Reverb.
R Rock Razor F Hans dampf..think there the gravity versions so a bit porky.
Cost me around £3700 to build it myself.
Find it a bit heavy going up hills, but brilliant downhill.
Was curious if a new frame could save me some weight..
Currently weighs 31.4lb with my magic scales 🙂
I think it's now just a case of who turns up at the trail centre with the flashiest bike competition and can't ride worth a ****!
Does that include anybody who owns an Audi and a Santa Cruz? 😀
One thing I've noticed is, there's a lot of flash bikes in the trail centres car parks that I've been to..but I don't see hardly any of them doing the red trails.. 😕
i own both an audi and a santa cruz and only ride blue trails because i'm a bit shit. so what?
How come orange never jumped on the carbon bandwagon? is it lack of R&D budget or some other reason?
Tradition innit.
I wonder if Greg Minnaar slagged off Santa Cruz when he snapped a frame when he hit that post recently ...
One of my riding group has snapped three Alpine swingarms. He's a very good rider, but not Minnaar. (Obviously! Who is? Apart from Minnaar.)
How come orange never jumped on the carbon bandwagon? is it lack of R&D budget or some other reason?
These don't come in carbon 😀
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What year are all these snapped Alpine swingarms?
I've currently got an Alpine & really rate it. My list of Orange bikes is listed below but oddly I don't consider myself a fanboi; I've had plenty other "boutique" bikes but I keep coming back to Orange because the way they ride seems to suit the way [i]I[/i] ride.
Sub 5
Patriot LT
5
Patriot 66
Crush
Patriot
Blood (just loved this but got nicked)
224
Alpine 160 (current)
That's a lot of pennies for tight Yorkshire lad to cough up & all but the crush being made in Yorkshire had no bearing on my purchase whatsoever.
The only bike I had issues with was the original sub5 which was out of alignment (inches not mm's) had odd sized crank arms fitted, was a real Friday afternoon botch-up. Orange were spot on & authorised an immediate refund along with produce apologies & a reassurance that it was a true one off (not convinced about that, but never mind).
Iv got a couple of mates who live in Morzine & ride hard most of the year when the trails are open; he's had a Strange 5 for Donkey's years along with an original 224 & 224 evo. His Mrs rides an Alpine too. They're not that great at servicing & tend to ride until stuff wears out - their kit gets battered! The only issues they've had were a cracked shock mount on the original 224.
Anyway, what I'm saying is that cost & value, in my opinion, are linked but quite different things. My bikes get used all year round for everything from my daily commute, annual continental big mountain trip to racing DH at Forest of Dean & racing the Mega. As such I value not having to faff around with multiple pivots, tight mud clearance etc. And as I said I just like they way they ride.
What year are all these snapped Alpine swingarms?
I'm guessing that my mate's were 2015. He gave up and bought another bike at the end of last year.
Whereabouts? Mines a 2016 so I think it's the same design.
Does that include anybody who owns an Audi and a Santa Cruz?One thing I've noticed is, there's a lot of flash bikes in the trail centres car parks that I've been to..but I don't see hardly any of them doing the red trails..
You possibly can't keep up with them, due to dragging that chip on your shoulder, and hauling the green eyed monster too?.
Chip on my shoulder? If I've upset you with the Audi and Santa Cruz joke, then I'm still not sorry 😛
Nobody at the start, nobody on any part of the course and nobody waiting for a green eyed monster at the finish..
but I don't see hardly any of them doing the red trails..
Perhaps they are too busy smashing the proper trails instead of the man made 'red graded' cycle paths the litter UK trail centres... one thing I will say is the two chaps I ride with who own Enve' d up Cruz' s one drives an Audi one a Vw Van both of which are proper quick riders! Both of which would hit bigger stuff than most of the people riding red trails asking where all the SC riders are!
Obviously the comment was toungue in cheek, but it does reek of jealousy. If by in large riders of the 'superbike' variety just spend all day riding blue trails, who cares? As long as they come back happy who's business is it to any body? Personally I just like seeing people riding bikes and smiling. Be it a Halfords special or a carbon fandango. Snobbery or reverse snobbery is a pretty poor personality trait
No jealousy on my behalf when critising orange. Likewise, I'm all for buying what you can afford, not what suits your ability. If that was the case I'd be riding a boardman full suss and a second hand alu roadie.
Prices for Yeti frames (I have one) are far higher and even less value than those from orange. But companies like yeti and santa cruz appear to be able to build full bikes for decent (relatively) value, whereas Orange don't.
That said, if I was in the market for a new enduro frame, i would consider the alpine. The 2012 version I tried was amazing, better than the spesh enduro I had at the time IMO, at least when going downhill
mildred - Member
Whereabouts? Mines a 2016 so I think it's the same design.
From memory, on the swingarm, diagonally up at the thickest part. Where the stays join, basically. Same place on all three.
He spends a lot of time in the air and sideways. 😆
Chip on my shoulder? If I've upset you with the Audi and Santa Cruz joke, then I'm still not sorry
Nobody at the start, nobody on any part of the course and nobody waiting for a green eyed monster at the finish..
Offended? schools back tomoro, run along....
How come orange never jumped on the carbon bandwagon? is it lack of R&D budget or some other reason?
from memory the company they talked to wanted lots more money than they were happy to pay.
the company they spoke to wanted more money for what? manufacturing their carbon bikes for them? Seems odd? Surely they would have spoken to more then one manufacturer?
I've got a Stage 6 & it's the best bike I've owned.
Just how Orange bikes wind up the idiots is enough to make me want to buy another.
the company they spoke to wanted more money for what? manufacturing their carbon bikes for them
Yes I believe so .... and I have no idea Who they talked with outside the Uk I don't work for orange .Jay sat in front of me and I asked him directly
4 Alpine 160s, 2 Alpine 6's a Stage 6 and a Segment between our guiding team over the past 2 seasons. All ridden hard in the Alps for 15 weeks, no issues whatsoever.
There were some issues with the original Alpine 160 swingarm (waaaaaay back in 2009), but that's long-since sorted. Customer service was very good at the time.
Pat's done 2 seasons on his 2016 Alpine, no problems.
Goldigger - I could get the weight down (mags all have Factory weights at a couple of pounds less than mine) but I just want reliable, hence no Eagle, Hope cranks, no carbon. Bike climbs well and I can ride it all day in proper hills, and descending it's mint. Had no issues yest with any of the kit, except the blue switch on my Float X seems to have jammed. Warranty job. Fantastic bike, but it's a personal thing. Also, just for the record, I couldn't care less where it was made - it's only about performance and reliability for me.
Anyone know when the '18 bikes will hit the dealers? Anyone seen any out there or have any info?