Sure thing. I'm off to bed you can tell me all the differences in the morning . Don't stay up too late!(Not my wall, wish it was my fence)
That shows it quite well, look at the added distance from the crank to the front hub!
yes looks to be about 0.5cm extra per year. It's new and updated! £££ 😀
it's cool, you like them, so do others, I don't like them, so do others.
But I'm genuinely keen to know why they are better than say a bird, costing a grand less.
They probably aren't 'better' but one has a £700 Far East frame, the other a £1700 hand built uk frame so there's your grand. Up to you if the premium is worth it. Does a aluminium Santa Cruz frame perform far worse than the carbon version? It's certainly cheaper but there's no shortage of people who go for the carbon.
I bought an Orange Four last year, and with all the upgrades it cost nearly £4000, but the fun I've had out of it this last year has been worth every penny.
I've been riding Oranges for about 17yrs now, and up until last year, it's almost always been through buying frames and swapping kit from the old bike onto the new. My last full sus frame, an Orange Five from around 2010 cost me about £1500. Seems the new frames are going for around £1650 and are significantly lighter and better looking in my opinion. I'd spend that money for what I know is a brilliant bike frame.
C.
I've been miserable since my Alpine 160 was taken last week. Hopefully sunset will be sorting me out with a new one in the next few days.
I don't see the filing cabinet thing myself. They're more like riding a skip, filled with buckets that someone is towing down a hill with a buldozer.
I recently had an, admittedly short, test ride on a Stage 6 and I have to confess it was good, like, really good.
But I don't think any bike warrants dropping £4k on it regardless of how good it is. That said, just like the car market, there will always be those who do drop the cash on new bikes and for that we should be thankful; in 6, 12, 18 months they're for sale at a fraction of the new price and even if you don't want someone else's dirty saddle, plenty of bike shops flog new, nay defunct, models for a reduced price as the pace of technology marches on.
chestrockwell - but one has a £700 Far East frame, the other a £1700 hand built uk frame so there's your grand.
Sorry, where exactly is that grand? Far East frames are hand built too, Orange might be paying slightly more for welding (~£20ph vs ~$26000pa) but won't be paying import / shipping or covering flights to place orders or checking QC. Looking at videos Orange aren't exactly splashing out on working conditions either.
What you're paying for is brand premium, heritage and profit. Orange reportedly sell as many as they can make so why would they charge less, they don't need to compete on price.
I don't get the accusations thrown at Orange in relation to suspension design and lack of innovation when compared to many manufacturers on the market. Yes, it's a single pivot, and the basic silhouette has remained the same for many years, however each iteration has seen a gradual evolution and refinement of the design. Why continue to try to do something different, when you have a good design which you can continue to make better through advances in shock technology, refinement of design/manufacture etc.
If you look at Specialized for example, they have been plying the same 4-bar / FSR design for many years, or take GT with the i-drive, Santa-Cruz with the VPP etc etc. All examples of companies who have basically been refining the same design for years just like Orange, but very rarely get called out for lack of change. Just because there are a few more moving parts in these bikes, it does not make them more innovative.
All designs have their pros and cons, their fans and detractors. Looks divide opinion, but the new breed of Orange bikes from 2016 on I personally think look great, and much prefer the simple and clean lines in comparison to some of the overly complex and clunky looking multi link designs (that's just me though).
Much seems to me to be lazy criticism from keyboard warriors who think it's hip to hate, but in many cases have never ridden one to form a proper opinion (I do appreciate that, like many other brands, there will be those who just do not get on with them).
On the pricing front, I do feel that they are overpriced as complete bikes (frames are comparable for a UK built product that a lot more work goes into than is given credit for), but that's another matter.
The price increase seems a little harsh. £300+ over the 2017 model for nothing more than a gx eagle upgrade.
I'm about to buy my first Orange after using a friends Crush for the past 2 weeks and falling in love. As tempting as it is to buy the frame and parts and self build for cheaper I think at this point I can max out a 2017 Orange Crush RS build with Hope bb etc for well under 3k if I shop around.
A 2018 Crush RS of similar spec would set me back £3500. I know the UK bike builders that have frames made abroad have had far smaller price hikes for the base eagle builds, I wonder if this is a brexit tax or is all of the trolling towards Orange caused by this kind of thing happening regularly?
Sorry, where exactly is that grand?
That is a very good question.
A Bird Aeris is £1313.99 when you include a shock, an axle and a seat clamp and delivery. An Orange 5 with a comparable shock costs £1650.
There isn't a grand difference in the price. It is £336.01.
Do people who think orange haven't changed in x years or whatever think the same about road bikes that look similar in appearance?
I do love a good Orange thread ..Like most I've had a few bikes in the orange range a crush p7 Five and Alpine five the later being fantastic .but when new bike time came 4 months ago I didn't spend 4500 on the five rs I spend my money on a 160rs whyte ..reasoning moly down to cost
.I love the Whyte and at the time paid 2900 for it with xo eagle and Lyriks is a fantastic bike if the five was the same spec and around 3k money would have gone there ..reason orange bikes just work all year round and I dare say the Whyte will need bearings first but they are free ish .... Orange are brilliant but even folks closer to home are grumbling about the latest price hikes
Paid £400 for this second-hand 😀
Spent another £400 upgrading wheels/bar/new chain/chainring ...
Still bargains to be had if you shy away from big names 8)
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A Bird Aeris is £1313.99 when you include a shock, an axle and a seat clamp and delivery. An Orange 5 with a comparable shock costs £1650.
That makes the Orange frame only prices seem a bargain to me then! I paid £2074 for my current model Segment a year ago. £400 extra for all the parts including Fox 34's and 1x11 didn't seem bad to me.
Does amuse me how over excited people who have no intention of buying Orange get about the pricing. If you want On One prices, get a On One. If you want Canyon, Bird or other direct sales prices, buy direct sales. If you want Yeti, Santa Cruz etc prices, buy one of them. All brands mentioned seem to sell enough to the people they want sales from to keep going.
Someone mentioned a 29er p7 earlier in the thread but can't find anything about this. Is it rumour only?
Looks like Sunset removed most of the 2018 listings, 29 p7 included.
Everything looked pretty standard spec wise, gx eagle upgrades, couple of new colours (purple and bright yellow).
Be very curious to see how a 29 steel handles fun wise.
2017 Orange Crush RS build with Hope bb etc for well under 3k if I shop around
Amazeballs. A made in England metal hardtail for twice the price I paid for my X1 shod carbon race bike.
Hardly a bargain.
The 29" p7 is still there on page two.
http://www.sunsetmtb.co.uk/shop/index.php?product_id=6830&8433=40403&8684=41588
As for a 3k Crush.... Even I would draw the line at that as I just can't see where it would be that much of an improvement over my 1k c2w p7.
Amazeballs. A made in England metal hardtail for twice the price I paid for my X1 shod carbon race bike.Hardly a bargain.
Not an orange fan, but I know which one of those 2 I'd rather ride....
Orange hardtails are made in the far East
2018 5S is £2999
2017 5S was recently discounted to £2k.
Nothing new here, plenty of other manufacturers do it, you're just paying a UK premium.
Thanks for the link. Hoping the 29er p7 has some of the same Geo as the new clockwork which looks bang up to date - XL (473 reach, 20" seattube and 66° head angle)
Not an orange fan, but I know which one of those 2 I'd rather ride...
And the greatest respect to your personal choice. I'm just pointing out that "value" for having the "made in Halifax" stamp can be a bit misconstrued.
I bet both of us have a similar amount of fun on out bikes,yet both have a narrow "fun" window.
Just like the Orange 5, the Porsche 911 has hardly changed! And it's a stupid design with the engine behind the rear wheels... 😉
1963:
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2017:
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All they've done is make the wheels bigger and charge you loads more for it! And you're paying a ridiculous premium for made in Europe. 😛
I bought myself an orange MrXC XTRa in 1999. Full xtr, bling manitou forks, titanium bits, etc (it was the first mrXC sold, and looks pretty close to a new 5 as well). Cost £2999 (from memory). In today's money, that's ~£4800 - which seems to be the approx cost of the equivalent today.
I try not to do "how much?" posts, but £3.3k for a 525 steel HT is hilarious.
Got a 5 and a P7 great bikes and I got great deals on them. Would I pay full price. Yes if I earned that much. What price happiness?
I bought myself an orange MrXC XTRa in 1999. Full xtr, bling manitou forks, titanium bits, etc (it was the first mrXC sold, and looks pretty close to a new 5 as well). Cost £2999 (from memory). In today's money, that's ~£4800 - which seems to be the approx cost of the equivalent today
I was just thinking along the same lines.
I paid £2.5k for my Patriot SE in 2002. Fastforward 15 years and circa £5.8k for the modern equivalent of a Alpine 6 Factory is probably about right all things considered - the frame alone is £1,895 (which is on a par with what I paid for my 2014 Alpine 160 c\w CCDB Coil).
The chances of me buying an 'off the peg' bike these days is pretty remote and I fully appreciate that it does seem like a lot of money for an initial outlay but then Mountain Biking has never been a cheap hobby has it?
According to the BOE inflation calculator £2500 in 2002 is worth £3700 in 2016...
chakaping - Member
I try not to do "how much?" posts, but £3.3k for a 525 steel HT is hilarious.
Agreed, Stanton got a bit of grief over their price rises a while back, but they look much better value than the p7....it's a bit of a piss take
I thought everyone had been putting prices up. It was only around 6 months ago I was looking at a carbon Stumpy for £3k, which then went up overnight to £3,400.
Yep tenfoot, every one else puts prices up it's just that people like having a pop at Orange for some reason.
it's just that people like having a pop at Orange for some reason.
That's unfair!
I like having a pop at Yeti, Mondraker, Hope, Spesh, Instense as well - plenty of brands take the piss with some of their pricing.
Agreed that is unfair! I was just talking to my mate about the price of the new scott genius which also appears to be some kind of sick joke. The cost of Orange frames is inline with many other manufacturers, but their complete bike prices are almost greedy. How can you justify the pricing for the latest p7? It's ridiculous, as said before I am a very recently reformed orange fan boi...hell I even have the hoody and about 10 T-shirts. But frankly I would never buy another UK built orange unless the price reflected the quality and the actual real life support. For me they fell woefully short of the mark and despite what the other fanboys say, they couldn't give a shit. In fact the build quality issues, pricing and service levels seem to of gone down the toilet since the ownership change...obviously this is my opinion and experiences
That's unfair!I like having a pop at Yeti, Mondraker, Hope, Spesh, Instense as well - plenty of brands take the piss with some of their pricing.
And yet, at this time of year it seems there's an annual Orange bashing thread. Could you point me in the direction of the annual Yeti, Mondraker, Hope, Spesh etc thread?
Not that it matters anyway and my next bike may not be Orange as there's defo a rise in qc moans. Maybe the new chap is spreading things a bit thin where as Steve and Lester had a better handle on their limits? Saying that, both my post buy out Segment and p7 have been ace so far.
According to the BOE inflation calculator £2500 in 2002 is worth £3700 in 2016...
yes - but that's only part of the picture isn't it?
Which is why I said 'all things considered' ...
Using the BOE inflation calculator alone shows that a pint of Guinness costing £1 in 1984 should only cost £2.95 in 2016 whereas I've been regularly paying anything from £3.80 to £4.80 for the past couple of years.
That's because of a change in duty though isn't it...it's as accurate example as you are going to find especially with orange still constructing bikes now as they did in 2002....
And yet, at this time of year it seems there's an annual Orange bashing thread. Could you point me in the direction of the annual Yeti, Mondraker, Hope, Spesh etc thread?
I'll try to get onto this next week.
Very busy at the moment though so can't promise.
.it's as accurate example as you are going to find especially with orange still constructing bikes now as they did in 2002....
But are we talking about the cost of Orange frames or the cost of complete Orange bikes? And the huge hike in prices of rear shocks etc?
From memory the cost of a Patriot frame only (with an awful basic rear shock) was just shy of £1k in 2002. Factoring in inflation, that would be about £1.5k in 2016. Add in a bit extra to reflect the change in shock prices and the difference isn't that huge I don't think.
The big increase in the price of complete bikes is in part to do with cost of imported components which have increased hugely over the past few years - and likely to increase even more over the next few years ...
So how do Bird, airstrip etc all do it? Are they buying inferior components? I'm afraid from where I stand they have increased over and above. Especially when you consider the value offered by other males.
That said let's not get away from the fact their antiquated construction methods limits the amount of frames they actually can produce so they will work off the logic of complete bikes being at a price the market can stomach vs their supply.
I do however understand it's easy to jump on the 'overpriced filing cabinet!' Bandwagon but it's very difficult to justify the pricing of some of their taiwan imported hardtails
So how do Bird, airstrip etc all do it? Are they buying inferior components? I'm afraid from where I stand they have increased over and above. Especially when you consider the value offered by other males.
Because they have business models that rely on cheaper labour for manufacture and direct sales to cut out dealer margins. Was anyone doing direct sales twenty years ago?
Be glad that nowadays you have these alternatives because with the extremely low value of sterling vs yen and the low value of sterling vs dollar, plus the large increase in wages in the Far East, anyone using the traditional business model has to sell for a lot more here now.
Because they have business models that rely on cheaper labour for manufacture and direct sales to cut out dealer margins. Was anyone doing direct sales twenty years ago?
But we have already established that the frames are by and large the same price as Orange therefor the 'cheap' labour is somewhat of a moot point. If anything it suggests that Orange are 'cheap' for a frame only purchase. All of my new oranges have been frame only purchases, the build spec of their complete bikes is always too much of a compromise for what I perceive as value.
Worth noting you can also buy an Orange direct. Dealer margins (I'm reliably told) are very small compared to other manufacturers.
I have always been a massive fan of Orange and the whole ethos, hell I even forgave their pricing given the supposed support. But for me when it went wrong the back up was poor, really poor something that historically was always hailed as being 'one of the best'. This has changed since the buy out, also coincided with further price hikes and more QC issues.
I think part of it might be the fact they are British , 4K for a Santa Cruz or 6k for an intense from California seems a bit more reasonable as they're from far away , have fancy race teams and make cool videos .
Orange are from Halifax which is not exotic and hard to get excited about ( Halifax not orange ) and don't seem to have a massive presence on the ews or world cup dh , at least anymore .
I rember looking at fives once and the upgrade to a reverb was basically rrp of a reverb which did seem a bit weird, 10% off wouldn't hurt surely.
I
I've just got myself a Stage 5. The main reason for me buying it is that I've had 5 'high end' carbon frames in the last five years. Each one of which has cracked.
I'm also sick of messing around with expensive bottom brackets which need new bearings every three months.
I bought the frame only with rockshox shock as the upgrade to the fox shock is more than what my LBS would sell me the fox shock for. The upgrades on the bikes are not good value.
I think the base model 5 is reasonable value. The bottom of the range Specialized enduro is now £3000.
When you buy an Orange and click on the spec' changes is it built by the retailer or do they then order it in from Orange?
Does any other dealer network bike manufacturer offer this level of individual customisation?
