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Is that the padding? Or just stopping the mountain from falling down?
Where do you put the straw there?
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Are there BASE jumping competitions where people die? Never heard of a competition climbing up the outside of buildings either?
People injure and kill themselves doing those sports not convinced they do in competition.
So rampage means all sportsmen are expendable?
See my post above
[quote=atlaz ]I don't know if you can straw bale 6km of descent though.
Of course you can, it's just a question of whether you can be bothered. They didn't need to straw bale 6km anyway - just the apex and exit of the corners, probably less than 500m in total. Though I'd like to think somebody sensible wouldn't have just thrown a load of straw bales at it and thought about the most appropriate protection at each point.
Has anyone seen the roadside video of Van Vleuten's crash yet? Harrowing just seeing her lying there for a few minutes on her own before she gets attention. [url=
Different sport though, the participants of that sport know the risks and consequences, and also accept those risks can't particularly be mitigated other than by their own PPE. And also that the high level of risk is part of that particular sport.
It's easy to say the cyclists in the road races did the same (accept the risks - otherwise just don't ride) but they weren't properly mitigated where they could easily have been. It also makes me think that 1/ it won't have been only CB that pointed out that it was dangerous and could have been made less so; 2/ after Saturday's crashes the opportunity was still there even then to act.
Whoever sanctioned / approved the route without requiring proper measures to be taken was in my opinion negligent in considering rider safety, and has got away lightly considering how bad it could have been and indeed, nearly was.
That video highlights the clear lack of care being exhibited by the organisers of the road race, on a descent that must have been highlighted on the pre-race risk assessments. There appears to be no mitigation, and no immediate medical care for the inevitable crash. That she was left lying face down for minutes before anyone attended her is in my mind unacceptable.
Agree aP, though it's not obvious what may have been going on via race radio. Poor girl, gutted for her.
Is there any speed / time element in Rampage scoring or is it entirely artistic (line choice and moves/tricks) based. You need to consider how racing changes the likelihood and consequences of mistakes
DH MTB
Skiing/Boarding
Red Bull Rampage etc
Motosport in general
DH MTB: padding/crash nets/PPE.
Skiing: as above.
Motorsport: a HUGE amount of safety measures put in.
The problem with the Olympic Road Race is that the road had so much potential to cause harm if a mistake was made.
FFS the netting wasn't even fixed after Porte's crash!
Redbull/BASE jumping etc are at the extreme end of sport where death is more likely for a mistake & it is very hard to mitigate for any mistakes.
The point being, that keeps getting missed, is that the Olympic Road Course does not appear to have had adequate protection installed given the level of risk that was on hand.
As I've already said: they hadn't even bothered to fix the netting after Porte's crash.
What does that tell you about the attitude of the organisers to rider safety??
Yep rampage you dig your line, chose your risk and can walk away. They had medics on scene in about a minute or less for every crash, there were 2 of those choppers waiting on standby in the event of a problem.
Hearing the cauldron of noise going silent was a very strange feeling. Bass gave the thumbs up when they took off, we didn't know until later how serious it was.
Christ, that FB video is awful. Where the **** were the medics, it really shouldn't take that long at the Olympics.
Is there any speed / time element in Rampage scoring or is it entirely artistic (line choice and moves/tricks) based. You need to consider how racing changes the likelihood and consequences of mistakes
I believe there are marks awarded for speed/flow etc, but it's not the be-all....
At a guess the risk assessment said the dangers are no worse than what is found in the normal pro cycling calendar.
Lets for example take the Passo Giau descent into Cortina d'Ampezzo (picked because i've done it and knew it made a good example). Included in the Giro on a very regular basis, no mass outcry about the dangers, and yet we find the following blind corner which is approached at very high speed.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/ @46.5223945,12.1194374,3a,75y,91.64h,67.47t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s-C5Ja0juAbdysb1vY5ovtg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en
Which if you get it wrong leads to sheer rock face:
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/ @46.5224628,12.1200604,3a,75y,73.88h,62.83t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s8q2a9jGXJicUPHkV9BpV-w!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1?hl=en
And a wheel height wall ready to launch you into oblivion:
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/ @46.5224995,12.1201379,3a,75y,68.57h,64.32t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1suUgNhZsE1Y4eEabGvvvM-w!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en
If that section i've linked has been deemed suitable for racing umpteen times, then there's no reason the Olympic RR course shouldn't also have been deemed safe.
Its a case of the riders using their judgement about the level of risk they are willing to take. In the case of the Olympic RR, the riders will all have been out and recce'd the descent in the week leading up to the event, they all knew the risks, and they all made the decision they were worth it.
You mean that open corner, with good sight lines and a nice, dead straight, approach? Not really the same.
How many riders have needed hospital treatment following crashes on that descent? Because at least 6 did in the Olympic road race, after one race:
- Porte
- Henao
- van Vleuten
- Nibali
- Oliviera
- Thomas
I've been posting on STW for many years (10+?) but I still find myself caught off-guard by the amount of keyboard expert bullshit bellendery posted by some people.
This thread has seen everything from comparison with Rampage to criticism of her skills. Some posters are perfectly able to criticise their own shadow.
[quote=ads678 ]Christ, that FB video is awful. Where the **** were the medics, it really shouldn't take that long at the Olympics.
The one positive I'm taking from that is that the untrained bystanders left her alone - it's apparent from the video that she's breathing, so no immediate need to move her. A lot of vehicles drove past before anybody arrived to help her though.
If that section i've linked has been deemed suitable for racing umpteen times, then there's no reason the Olympic RR course shouldn't also have been deemed safe.
Given the outcomes I'd disagree.
Its a case of the riders using their judgement about the level of risk they are willing to take.
Quotes from Porte were that the guy in front went downeft him nowhere to go, could easily have done the slide into the kerb too.
Just because there are dangers elsewhere doesn't mean you can't make one safer. Otherwise we wouldn't bother with Road safety.
fifeandy - Member
At a guess the risk assessment said the dangers are no worse than what is found in the normal pro cycling calendar.Lets for example take the Passo Giau descent into Cortina d'Ampezzo (picked because i've done it and knew it made a good example). Included in the Giro on a very regular basis, no mass outcry about the dangers, and yet we find the following blind corner which is approached at very high speed.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/ @46.5223945,12.1194374,3a,75y,91.64h,67.47t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s-C5Ja0juAbdysb1vY5ovtg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=enWhich if you get it wrong leads to sheer rock face:
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/ @46.5224628,12.1200604,3a,75y,73.88h,62.83t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s8q2a9jGXJicUPHkV9BpV-w!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1?hl=enAnd a wheel height wall ready to launch you into oblivion:
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/ @46.5224995,12.1201379,3a,75y,68.57h,64.32t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1suUgNhZsE1Y4eEabGvvvM-w!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=enIf that section i've linked has been deemed suitable for racing umpteen times, then there's no reason the Olympic RR course shouldn't also have been deemed safe.
Its a case of the riders using their judgement about the level of risk they are willing to take. In the case of the Olympic RR, the riders will all have been out and recce'd the descent in the week leading up to the event, they all knew the risks, and they all made the decision they were worth it.
POSTED 4 MINUTES AGO # REPORT-POST
At least you'd be able to enjoy the view on the way down!
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No-one's saying it wasn't deemed acceptable for racing on and as you say they all made their choices.
The fact is, it could have been made safer.
That video is awful, but she was breathing, clearly, couldn't have been moved (first guys there immediately protected her neck), and as in all first aid courses the first priority is danger - no point the motorbike guys attending to her if the next thing that happens is the next riders or cars down run them all over. Also the paramedic types couldn't have parked there for the same reasons, seems like they had to park on the preceding straight and run down first. I don't think in those circumstances the 'delay' is avoidable, short of stopping / neutralising the whole of the following contingent.
You mean that open corner, with good sight lines and a nice, dead straight, approach?
Hardly open, but admittedly it doesn't tighten.
Disagree about the good sight lines, the straight approach means you [i]could be[/i] travelling so fast you are well committed to the turn before you know whats round the other side.
Sight lines aren't really an excuse though, as anyone that thought they were in with a chance will have ridden the descent at least 3-4 times in the week leading up to the race, or at least filmed it and reviewed the footage.
At least you'd be able to enjoy the view on the way down!
It is indeed a superb view, although spending a week riding in the dolomites there are superb views everywhere you look
I was shocked and really upset watching it live, I really thought she was dead. Horrible crash.
My view is some hay bales on the exits of those corners wouldn't have been a bad idea at all, considering the tightening compound corners and off camber. But hindsight is a great thing.
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I don't think having already ridden before makes it ok, at that point in the race I'd imaging fatigue impairs judgement somewhat and vastly increases the chances of mistakes.
Wouldn't the inclusion of bales have led to (more) riders, possibly, taking more and more severe risks?
Wouldn't the inclusion of bales have led to (more) riders, possibly, taking more and more severe risks?
Mitigate the consequences, reduce the impact of the risk. Would you suggest spikes on the outside of the corners to focus the mind
I don't think having already ridden before makes it ok, at that point in the race I'd imaging fatigue impairs judgement somewhat and vastly increases the chances of mistakes.
Helps in knowing what's coming. Doesn't help if, as in the men's race someone else screws up and puts you off line or takes you down. I'd like to think in that case at least i won't be going head first into an unprotected lump of concrete
Fatigue, judgement and skill are all part of racing. I don't think we want courses that can be descended at full speed by anyone; we need it to be one of the deciding factors for a race. But the penalty for a screw up should be losing the race, not your life / ability to walk.
Mitigate the consequences, reduce the impact of the risk. [b]Would you suggest spikes on the outside of the corners to focus the mind?[/b]
Did I go anywhere near suggesting that?
You win one whole internet point. 🙄
Wouldn't the inclusion of bales have led to (more) riders, possibly, taking more and more severe risks?
Maybe, but that's their prerogative. Most of us are saying that crashes are an inherent part of racing, but such harsh penalties for them needn't be.
Did I go anywhere near suggesting that?
You win one whole internet point.
No, you made the link between risk, consequences etc. So if asking if making it safer makes people take more risks then it's logical to assume that increasing the consequences would make people pay more attention and ride safely.
I've been posting on STW for many years (10+?) but I still find myself caught off-guard by the amount of keyboard expert bullshit bellendery posted by some people.
Quite. Some posters remind me of Airplane.
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They knew what they were getting into. I say, let 'em crash
Can't wait til the TT's start and we can drag this thread back on topic... 🙄
[quote=grenosteve ]My view is some hay bales on the exits of those corners wouldn't have been a bad idea at all, considering the tightening compound corners and off camber. But hindsight is a great thing.
Except they were talking about those road edges in the previews. Or at least CB was - you certainly can't say that his POV is from hindsight. It's the duty of organisers of such events to imagine what might happen (I know when I organised a race including a bike leg I rode the intended route a couple of times, solely in order to try and work out where any hazards were and changed the route slightly as a result, and that was for a race involving ~30 people) - it's not like it was an isolated incident or a freak occurrence.
[quote=crazy-legs ]Can't wait til the TT's start and we can drag this thread back on topic...
Sorry - maybe we should get the mods to shut it for a couple of days and start a new separate thread for discussion of the dangers of the course and crashing? That or just let this one run and start a new thread for the TTs and track, as I don't think there's going to be much more discussion of the racing here.
Nibbles update, seems he's gonna be able to ride later in the season...
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/nibali-undergoes-successful-collarbone-surgery/
Wrong size water bottles that fell out of cages, moto feeds not numbered so we didn't know where we were in the race, and a lack of run-off / protection of hard street furniture.
Not highly professional organisation.
Having watched the facebook vid it is now clear to me that the problem is a lack of advanced Moto riders. They only had about 100, clearly should have had double that.
I reckon they're only there to build up tension... "ooh, is it the rider yet?"... "NOOOO,, it's just another motorbike"
franksinatra - Member
I've been posting on STW for many years (10+?) but I still find myself caught off-guard by the amount of keyboard expert bullshit bellendery posted by some people.
Quite.
Well, lets just say its a shame we've ended up talking about crashes as we were really treated to great racing on both days.
From a Team GB perspective i thought we did great too, with the mens team making some nice agressive racing, and Lizzie doing a good performance too.
Looking ahead, think we are shaping up for a good XC event. If this weekends WC is anything to go by, womens race in particular is wide open with at least 4 potential winners.
You win the insensitive and stupid prize for today
I'm a day late seeing this , can i still claim my prize 😆
Still don't think the crash was that bad to watch, certainly seen worse stuff broadcast on tv but I'm obviously not as sensitive as some people!
Anyway i don't do internet arguments as they just make you look stupid (quite a few people on here could do with taking note of that 😉 )
Everytime these topics go this way this picture always pops into my head 😆
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When the TdF was in Yorkshire there were many situations where the road ended with a dry stone wall, and no one complained
No there was definitely some bloke from giant threw his toys out the pram , oh and over the top of Stocksbridge where the tour went there were 12% grades that end in wall, wire fence, immovable object ,20 foot drop ,sheep.
The Australian Women's Team Pursuit squad crashed in practice yesterday doing a near race speed run. Fortunately they all seem OK, Melissa Hopkins was taken to hospital but released shortly afterwards.
Touch of wheels on Turn 3, the only rider to escape it was Annette Edmondson who was on the front.
Hope they're OK for Thursday, can always guarantee a great fight for the medals in Team Pursuit.
Were there any hay bales on turn three, sounds dangerous. 😉
No need. They build those velodromes with banked run off areas in the bends. 😉
Geraint Thomas called up for TT duties tomorrow.
In whose place?