In fact you seem to think it’s how it should be

In fact no – I do NOT think how it should be and we actively encourage people not to. We regularly remind people of that and take that approach ourselves as employers too (ie, we work regular hours as much as possible). But it is the almost total refusal to do anything above and beyond on the *VERY* occasional time we ask that surprises me.

My employers only ever pay me what my contract states they will, why on earth would I choose to work any more hours than I’m contracted to?

Because when you ask if you can leave early because you are going somewhere they say yes? Because when you ask to take driving lessons during work hours they say yes? Because you get treated to monthly social events and annual overnight fun experiences such as via ferrata? Because they regularly treat the whole team to nights out with all food and drink supplied? Etc, etc, etc.

That’s what our team get. Fair enough if you don’t get that sort of fair treatment from your employers – then I would do more than required either.

^ sentiments above about doing nothing other than required are great. Gives sensible grads a massive edge.

Smart grads and undergrads doing work experience (including both mini THMs) understand from the start that to succeed your attitude is: how do I make the lives of the seniors around me easier; how can I help; what do you need? Others (having gone through the effort of getting the experience) do the minimum. Guess who gets the job at the end? Guess who moans, life’s not fair?

We are in a very competitive environment. Most grads get this and work very hard and understand their role in making the lives of senior staff easier. Those that don’t, rarely survive or step down into easier, less demanding jobs. That’s their perogative

Having said that I did have to force some of my best grads to go home occassioanally last year, to protect them. They often sneaked back after I had left though 😯

We are a fair employer and pay good rates yet they expect so much sometimes, barely ever put in more than is the basic expectation (ie, only under severe duress would they consider coming in early or working late to complete a job

<shrug>

My first experience of work aged 16 included standing in a crowd around the timecard punch clock at the end of the day, waiting for it to tick round to 4pm before clocking out so you’d get paid for the extra quarter-hour.

These were guys that would’ve been born in the 50’s and 60’s – blagging it/entitlement is not something that has been invented recently

you got old; it happens.

you are undoubtedly getting more right wing too. you may not think so but all those youngsters wanting what took you a lifetime of hard graft to accrue

it was ever so.

perhaps…

True story.

A couple of years back, I was cycling through Catford on my regular commute when I punctured a tyre and had to pull my bike onto the pavement to fix it. It was a dark evening, I was pulling a repair kit out of my Camelbak when I noticed a bunch of hooded yoofs appear around me.

“Nice bike mate” said one.

“Got a puncture innit” said another.

All sorts of things ran through my head. I thought for a brief moment that I was about to be relieved of my bike.

“Punctures suck, man. Do you need some help?” said a third, the largest of the group.

So there I was, a middle aged man surrounded by a group of teenagers who did a brilliant job at fixing my inner tube and getting me on my way.

Bloody broken Britain. Etc.

We are a fair employer and pay good rates yet they expect so much sometimes, barely ever put in more than is the basic expectation (ie, only under severe duress would they consider coming in early or working late to complete a job

Fair and severe duress? Bit of a contradiction.

You’re cooperate events must be rewards for hard work surely not to put them under duress to work longer than they should?

Sandwich – Member
Who selects these people for the working environment? They don’t self select.

Remember mental health is covered by discrimination legislation and work needs to make suitable adjustment to the environment to allow the sufferer to continue ‘as far as is reasonably practicable’.

Yes, but like anything it is not immediately apparent if an ostensibly capable worker is actually a workshy layabout with a substance abuse problem.

Having managed a few of the above in my time I speak with experience!

As to mental health, I’m fully aware of that but in one particular case all reasonable adjustments were offered but the employee in question simply wasn’t capable of functioning in a work environment for any length of time. There’s no “fault” issues there, simply that they were not capable of functioning effectively or by that corollary being managed.

Speaking as a “boomer” now retired, I don’t think my parents were particulary interested in me and I was just generally left to get on with things myself. I was out and about in the World from what would these days be considered a criminally young age. That was not just my parents, all the kids in my area were the same. For instance, at infants school, it was very rare for parents to accompany their kids to school and I’m not talking about some remote village, this was the suburbs of London. That gave me a very independant attitude which seems to be lacking in the current generation(s).

Nowadays it seems like parents are much more hands-on especially both sexes and children seem to get very little leeway to be put in harms way. I’m not saying this is a good or a bad thing, it’s just different these days.

We have two grown grandsons who are in their 20s and are what you might call the archetypal feckless millenials. Most of our friends also are having similar problems with their offspring as well. Is that the parents fault? I think that’s just too simplistic.

I think everyone is struggling to come to terms with a World which seems to be changing so rapidly.

Because when you ask if you can leave early because you are going somewhere they say yes? Because when you ask to take driving lessons during work hours they say yes? Because you get treated to monthly social events and annual overnight fun experiences such as via ferrata? Because they regularly treat the whole team to nights out with all food and drink supplied? Etc, etc, etc.

That’s what our team get. Fair enough if you don’t get that sort of fair treatment from your employers – then I would do more than required either.

In my experience of several employers the reverse almost always seems to be the case. Working late and weekends when required to overcome some crisis or meet some deadline always seems to be the norm. When you want a day off for something important to you it’s like you have asked them to donate a kidney.

I’d forgotten the phone thing. Mr entitled graduate spends most of the day jabbing at his phone. No doubt chatting to his mates on whatsapp (or whatever is the in-vogue app these days) about what an ogre his manager is. I’m in no way painting all grads with the same brush. I have another (couple of years in now) who’s great. He still does stupid stuff but he at least listens when you give him some advice. What made me laugh is that when he spoke to HR I was told he used the words ‘I want that guy to be fired’. 😀

When I was starting out, having not already accumulated a pile of debt, I had a reasonable expectation that hard work would be rewarded with a stable career, pension, and the means to buy a home. That isn’t the case any more, and the younger generation know it, so what is the point of them investing time and effort that results only in making older people better off?

rather than my generation who went interailing and bumming round Asia in the holidays.

i guess i must be of a similar generation and i worked on a chicken farm or a building site in the summer break.
i’m thankful for being of the generation that doesn’t have to pay 40k for an education (i had a grant and the very first student loan which ended up being £1600 in total!)

i worked very hard at art college and left with a stack of work to show for my efforts that got me jobs as an assistant to other photographers and i ‘did my time’ learning how the real world of work was done post education.

i get college leavers coming to see me looking for work and i’m appalled at what they have to show me for their 3-5 years of study, literally what i was producing in a week. i feel like saying “is that all you have? what exactly were you doing at college?

the other thing is they are now consumers of education and paying handsomely for it, this has meant they feel they can complain if things dont go the way they think they should. my old tutor said: “they now get their parents involved, these are supposed to be adults i’m teaching?!”

they are a bunch of snowflakes, i kind of feel sorry for them as they are a product of society and the age of narcissism that we now live in.

That isn’t the case any more

Is it? When I graduated in 96 it wasn’t much different. Sure I didn’t have a 40k debt, but it was still just as hard to find a decent job. Many of my mates were working in garden centres and pubs a couple of years after graduating. I didn’t find a decent job til I was 24.

so what is the point of them investing time and effort that results only in making older people better off?

That’s never been any different either. Older people have always been richer than younger people, for very obvious reasons.

Is it? When I graduated in 96 it wasn’t much different. Sure I didn’t have a 40k debt…

A £40k debt doesn’t count as “much different”? What planet are you on? That’s before we get onto the job market, current house prices and rents.

I graduated in ’99, btw.

That’s never been any different either. Older people have always been richer than younger people, for very obvious reasons.

Of course its different. Younger people have less opportunity than they did.

A £40k debt doesn’t count as “much different”? What planet are you on?

I have massive sympathy for that and firmly of the view that fees should be abolished. But it doesn’t justify a sense of entitlement or a view that they’re much worse off than their elders. We had plenty of challenges which were unique to the time, just as they do now. I suppose I find it difficult to take too seriously the complaints of a 20 year old who’s decked out in designer clothes and a £1000 mobile phone.

Of course its different. Younger people have less opportunity than they did.

well at the moment, for a little while, they have freedom of movement round the EU, although this was so important to them that they couldn’t be bothered to get off their backsides to vote to keep it.

And they have help-to-buy – and house prices are not so unreacheable everywhere in the UK.

And they have super-low interest rates.

There’s probably more – but a recent LBC phone-in show had many people saying how they had to work multiple jobs in the 70s in order to afford a house, etc.

they are a bunch of snowflakes, i kind of feel sorry for them as they are a product of society and the age of narcissism that we now live in.

Utter bullshit. You’re talking individuals there is absolutely no difference whatever a persons age, some think they are more entitled than others. As some of the responses on here demonstrate with the “Oooh we had it tougher”. It’s like a monty python sketch.

well at the moment, for a little while, they have freedom of movement round the EU, although this was so important to them that they couldn’t be bothered to get off their backsides to vote to keep it.

You know that turned out to be a myth, right?

We had plenty of challenges which were unique to the time, just as they do now. I suppose I find it difficult to take too seriously the complaints of a 20 year old who’s decked out in designer clothes and a £1000 mobile phone.

I think they have it considerably worse than I did. There’s no way I could now afford to buy a house like the one I live in, and rents on my street have doubled. So I don’t really blame them for spending their money on living for today.

I’ve had a series of apprentices through the office over the last ten years, and they have, without exception, been fantastic young people, all of whom went on to get better jobs elsewhere.

the age of narcissism

I like that. It fits very well with selfie culture and FB/instagram It’s all about how things look.

My london tenants are young professionals. Ultra pinickity about everything moving in, pay their rent promptly, dont lift a finger for 2-3 years cleaning anything, walk away expecting their full deposit back.

Last lot just did not think of the consequences of their actions. Their damage claim, successfully settled, was about 2 months salary. I d have been tearing my hair out if it were my loss.

My london tenants are young professionals. Ultra pinickity about everything moving in, pay their rent promptly, dont lift a finger for 2-3 years cleaning anything, walk away expecting their full deposit back.

My landlord rented me a damp house with shonky heating, and stole my deposit.

In other news, the plural of anecdote is not data.

Deposit theft cannot happen now due to the protected deposits scheme, i had to provide evidence to settle my claim. Damp houses and poor heating i assume you actually inspected the house before taking it. Most damp issues i have experienced were tenant lifestyle.

dazh – Member

I suppose I find it difficult to take too seriously the complaints of a 20 year old who’s decked out in designer clothes and a £1000 mobile phone.

That’s really pretty simple- if big expensive aspirational things are beyond your reach- a house, paying off your tens of thousands of pounds of student loan- then it’s easy to spend money. Saving the cost of an iphone won’t get you a house or get you out of debt. And when the things you want get further away as fast as you can save then what’s saving doing for you?

(this is why I got my first expensive bike- I could have banked it and watched house prices increase at several times my pay rate did, or I could spend it on something obtainable)

Basically it’s orders of magnitude. I get where you’re coming from but it doesn’t really make sense to judge people for having nice small things when they can’t have the big things.

We have quite a few young people in work, some are great some are not. About the same ratio as any other age group.

You know that turned out to be a myth, right?

About 64% of registered voters aged 18-24 went to polls, study reveals, but 90% of over-65s voted

even if you believe that – it only asked just over 2000 people so only just significant – they were still lazier than the over 65s, who very likely had to make more of an effort to get up and vote, considering their age and the state of physical fitness than older people seem to let themselves get into.

Damp houses and poor heating i assume you actually inspected the house before taking it. Most damp issues i have experienced were tenant lifestyle.

Ah, so damp and shonky heating are the tenant’s fault? Yes, I inspected the house. In August. Anyway, my point is that there are good and bad tenants, and good and bad landlords. It’s not an age thing.

even if you believe that – it only asked just over 2000 people so only just significant – they were still lazier than the over 65s

If you wish to categorize a two-thirds turnout as “lazy” that’s up to you, but I think most people would think that to be fairly decent in, say, a general election.

About 64% of registered voters aged 18-24 went to polls, study reveals, but 90% of over-65s voted

I thought the bigger issue was that most 18-24 year olds weren’t even registered to vote…

they were still lazier than the over 65s, who very likely had to make more of an effort to get up and vote, considering their age and the state of physical fitness than older people seem to let themselves get into.

😯

However recent experiences at work (long story!) has lead me to think that a lot of them are a bunch of entitled, immature little shits.

I’m 29 – my team at work is very young – QA Officers ranging from 21 years of age to senior QAs of about 30.

They are hard working, but I find them to be overly obsessed about work, cliquey and none of them have any respect for one another – it is a constant bitch fest and what is more they don’t show any respect for the QP’s either. Because the senior QAs are so close in age to the QA Officers – whilst the QPs are much older, what has happened is that the leadership style has gone down the route of “self-managing teams”…..so a bunch of 20 year olds are basically constantly fighting among themselves like baboons over the social etiquette of the pack.

I prefer working with older, been around the block slightly cynical teams who have families and care for each other a little bit.

Really though, I’d just a job where I don’t have to interact with anyone other than my wife.

When I was starting out I would work late, I would work all weekend, I would do what I could to prove my worth.

Then you were a mug, and you still are a mug if someone has to ‘prove’ their worth by working stupid hours in your eyes.

Because you get treated to monthly social events and annual overnight fun experiences such as via ferrata? Because they regularly treat the whole team to nights out with all food and drink supplied? Etc, etc, etc.
That’s what our team get. Fair enough if you don’t get that sort of fair treatment from your employers – then I would do more than required either.

Ah, so it’s fair treatment, with conditions. Sounds great.

I don’t know what QAs and QPs are, that proves I’m old and Tom is young. The OP is obviously old too as he talks about “Young People” rather than YPs.

don’t know what QAs and QPs are, that proves I’m old and Tom is young. The OP is obviously old too as he talks about “Young People” rather than YPs.

OP is an OP?

Sorry, pharma lingo.

Quality Assurance Officers and Qualified Persons. A Qualified Person is for the layman – essentially the person with the final say that a drug batch is safe to be released to market. Becoming a Qualified Person is about as expensive as getting your MBA – and it comes with a lot of responsibility that can essentially see you ending up in prison if you make a mistake.

For balance (for those of you making generalisations):

-I’m 21
-Starting 4th year of an MEng
-Work hard at uni to get grades that give me access to placements and scholarships
-Work every summer on a relevant placement (this year was a research job for a major wind power manufacturer)
-Money from scholarships and placements goes in to bank account (once necessary bike bits have been bought) and careful accounting sees me through the rest of the year (just) on that money with no debt
-Still manage to get out plenty/have friends/have somehow managed to attract a mate

We’re not all entitled wee snowflakes 😆

However were I an employer, there are plenty folks on my course/similar that I would never, ever hire as they fit the “millennial” mould portrayed by this thread. There are also plenty older folks who I’ve worked for/with that as an employer I would also not hire as they’re equally useless.

I think your “generation” is about as relevant as your shoe size in this case – some folks are good to work with and others are not.

However were I an employer, there are plenty folks on my course/similar that I would never, ever hire as they fit the “millennial” mould portrayed by this thread. There are also plenty older folks who I’ve worked for/with that as an employer I would also not hire as they’re equally useless.

You see, this is what differentiates 21 year olds from 40 somethings.

Older people with more experience understand that actually – there are very few people who are useless at their jobs, but a lot of people who are weak in a few areas yet very strong in others. The young people I work with, bitch about other peoples weak points (even about the Qualified Persons who have 25 odd years under their belts). When in reality, you should value people for their strong points and try to utilise them for your own benefit.

Stating that you’ve got an masters in engineering, that you’ve done loads of summer placements…and somehow….managed to get a girlfriend as well….demonstrates exactly the same kind of arrogance that I have come to loathe. In fact, actually if I was an employer – I’d be looking for young graduates who’d gotten 2:2s, knocked a bird up and been kicked out their parents house – because you can mold those people.

If I compare with the opportunities my son has and those I had the only advantage he has is wealthier parents who are more prepared to pay to help him achieve his ambitions.

In terms of what society provides he’s worse off. In terms of his earning potential for a equivalent level of qualification he’s worse off. Getting qualifications will cost him (me) more and he’ll be older by the time they equal employment opportunities.

In terms of his attitude, he’s a lot better informed. satelite TV in multiple languages through his youth, better travelled, Internet access to any information he needs, better communications. He’s learned enough to know that the masters of this world – Google, Microsoft, Murdoch, Bouygues (TF1), EDF, and wealthy baby boomers are his enemies/adversaries in a winner grabs all, dog eat dog world. Who wouldn’t be a revolutionary ! Anyhow, he(s channeling his revolutionary tendancies through conformist channels at Sciences Po and will then change the world… .

Stating that you’ve got an masters in engineering, that you’ve done loads of summer placements…and somehow….managed to get a girlfriend as well….demonstrates exactly the same kind of arrogance that I have come to loathe. In fact, actually if I was an employer – I’d be looking for young graduates who’d gotten 2:2s, knocked a bird up and been kicked out their parents house – because you can mold those people.

Statements of fact don’t amount to arrogance.

So what you’re saying is that you’d rather hire folks that have got through on the bare minimum whilst making naive decisions with huge consequences (you could argue due to their sense of entitlement)? Good luck to you. Hope your moulding skills are top notch, as I wouldn’t want a workforce that operates like that. Would be an amusing job advert though I’ll grant you 😆

Yeah how dare you state what you’ve achieved.

I’d be looking for young graduates who’d gotten 2:2s, knocked a bird up and been kicked out their parents house – because you can mold those people.

🙄

Because when you ask if you can leave early because you are going somewhere they say yes? Because when you ask to take driving lessons during work hours they say yes? Because you get treated to monthly social events and annual overnight fun experiences such as via ferrata? Because they regularly treat the whole team to nights out with all food and drink supplied? Etc, etc, etc.
That’s what our team get. Fair enough if you don’t get that sort of fair treatment from your employers – then I would do more than required either.

If I need some time off (and I don’t want to use holidays) I just work it back another day – an hour for an hour. This seems both fair and reasonable.

If I worked an extra hour a day at your place, would I get an extra day off every fortnight? If not, it sounds like the employer is getting the better deal.

All the other stuff is fairly inconsequential, time off to do the things I want to do is much more important to me than work social events.

Yeah how dare you state what you’ve achieved.

Loads of kids get decent degrees, loads grt work experience and placements (like me). Lots can barely afford the former, let alone the latter.

I thought the post was a classic example of what I see often, criticising other colleagues whilst quoting their degree all without having any awareness of ones own faults. I do see that a lot amongst younger workers.