I think that would be a great idea to have short course XC stuff.

Not a big lap or a long race – just an evening flat out blast. Could be a runner? Particularly with better weather? It has to be said that a UK winter can put off even the most determined at times!

soggy bottom summer series was like this. juniors race on a short course from 5.45, main race at 7 all categories started together, race for about an hour. I only managed one (nearly DFL again…) but it was good fun.

I’ll throw my 3/- & 6d in here..

BITD I used to ride XC, yup those heady days of Roberts DogzBollox/Marin Team Tits/Klein Attitudes and those bonded yellow and blue Raleigh thingumbobs…

Those course around the Midlands(Cannock)/FoD/South(Epping) were all natural, wooded mix of flat chat and technical loops of about an hour per lap, normally 2 laps IIRC. Plenty of mixed abilities and again IIRC only one separate start for the Pros, us lot just went on behind. Now all I remember from back then was hard racing, and a distinct difference in fitness between the Pros and us lot.

I ride CX, short and long course, I’ve been to a few Gorricks and the ones I’ve been too remind me of the courses BITD, but I’ve seen the courses on TV of both the Olympics and the course left behind and it looks just too bland.
One reason I do ride CX is its flat chat with technical bits in, a few laps, a bit of puke, coffee and banter..

I’m happy I don’t ride XC, I do think it’s too serious.. I get the impression it’s too insular and only for the Pros/Semi wannabes, sterile even.

CX every time, it’s far removed from the perceived snooty XC scene IMO.

One of the funniest races I did last year was the soggy bottom at the beginning of Jan, really good atmosphere

that was my first xc race and best result (36/49 in sport) so far, the filthy conditions suited me, i made up a lot of places on every downhill section and lost them all again every climb.

remember this:

[url=https://flic.kr/p/CPsiBg]DSC04355 (Medium)[/url] by fully sussed, on Flickr

Just saying that if the time it takes organisers is the only reason that improvements aren’t being made it wouldn’t be that hard to fix if BC really wanted it to happen

That seems to be part of the problem from what I see and read. BC don’t have any interest in anything MTB related from grassroots level up to Elite level.

Have they done anything over the past few years to try and increase participation in any MTB format on the back of the huge surge in popularity of cycling?

Has it given you any ideas ? I seem to see a LOT less XC stuff in the summer… Whilst it’s fun sometimes in the mud, i’d much rather find myself riding on a nice summer morning than a wet and horrible foggy morning.

I’m sure we’ve had this discussion before, and it’s because you only look at Gorrick, who don’t run a summer XC series because of the other events happening! Look at the Southern XC series – you’re quoting the organiser’s post! 6-7 races between March and September. Slightly wider geographic spread than the Gorricks, but more variety for it.

Marin Team Tits

*fondly remembers being a Team Marin tit*

Agreed, but further away… However i do need to start considering further away things, if not for myself but for my lad.

I think that would be a great idea to have short course XC stuff.

Would be easier to organise, so more people likely to have a go at putting the races on.

That seems to be part of the problem from what I see and read. BC don’t have any interest in anything MTB related from grassroots level up to Elite level.

Have they done anything over the past few years to try and increase participation in any MTB format on the back of the huge surge in popularity of cycling?

Some of the sentiment above misunderstands BC. They are not event organisers they rely on individuals and clubs to be the organiser, they provide the structure and enablers like insurance etc. Therefore the lack of races is down to the lack of structure in MTB generally and the general culture which is more anti “committee”. Some places get it right, some don’t which is why the picture is so fragmented.

BC is essentially a bit of a curates egg, MTB is difficult for them and they really don’t get it (in so far as there is an “it” rather than a collection of opinionated individuals who make it a bit like herding cats). The club structure isn’t there in strength either which helps retain knowledge (and good and bad practice) as well as cash and equipment

The only people who can make a difference are those interested in the sport waiting for someone else to do the hard work is going to lead to continuing stagnation. There is no money in it, no recognition, just lots of hard work and begging for marshals and being nice to people who think they own you just because they paid £15 to enter the race

For me the system is broken and will continue to limp around, it will take an alignment of the stars to sort out

I think that would be a great idea to have short course XC stuff.

No one is stopping you from organising some

Its certainly useful for me, I’m organising a race next year, and its now definately having a “just for fun” category. 🙂

This years Big Dog was more technical than the Gorricks I think, but I did really enjoy the first 3 hours great fun. But once the fatigue set in, it very quickly became far too technical & hilly and I literally lost the will.

Big Dog is the best track I’ve raced on, I don’t get the too technical aspect at all. It’s just standard xc mtb isn’t it?

Pivot 24/12 is another fantastic course.

I’ve raced the Gorrick brass monkeys too, I like the single speed category aspect, I’m never going to trouble the podium but I can race like minded folk. Would be good to have categories identified on riders somehow like stickers on the seatpost or something.

Make it more like LeMans, easily identified races in races, more interesting for more people.

Would be good to have categories identified on riders somehow like stickers on the seatpost or something.

+1.

No one is stopping you from organising some

Nor you – why don’t we get together & have a crack?

Started racing winter series last year that a local club runs its £5 entry and on some lovley singletrack and fire road climbs usualy has a mixed age range of around 30 riders its simple male femaile juniors and you land whare you land
if you want to get better you have to work harder as this is a non bc event so no grouped points

BUT its not a massivley advertised event apart from on there website and xc racer which leads to me saying allot of riders not using xc racer looking for races for certain areas.

We saw oktoberfest fall this year due to low pre entry numbers and the odds are it wont be back again.
bikefest nearly dident happen this year and WAS canceld for next year due to lowering numbers and riseing land costs but have managed to secure atleast another year on site using new sections of land
i hope we manage to keep things going and bc can pull another cat out there ass or as other posters have said its off putting getting your ass handed to you on the regular.

CX has it nailed in many respects.

Short, sharp, fun with extra silliness thrown into the mix from time to time.

How does XC incorporate those elements?…

No one is stopping you from organising some

I am – cos I know what a ballache it is. I am in no way capable of being that organised.

mrlebowski – Member
CX has it nailed in many respects.

Short, sharp, fun with extra silliness thrown into the mix from time to time.

yup.

in a cyclo-cross race, repeatedly carrying/dragging your bike over/under/through a field because it’s an actual un-rideable swamp (Bakewell) is all part of the fun.

the same thing just wouldn’t be acceptable in a mountain bike race.

mad isn’t it?

Do we basically just need Rapha to put on some XC races to give it the hipster seal of approval?

Should try some of my races sound the same being winter set one of he climbs saw even the top end running the bikes up and sliding back down was quite funny towards the end.

This years Big Dog was more technical than the Gorricks I think, but I did really enjoy the first 3 hours great fun. But once the fatigue set in, it very quickly became far too technical & hilly and I literally lost the will.
Big Dog is the best track I’ve raced on, I don’t get the too technical aspect at all. It’s just standard xc mtb isn’t it?

I did 2 races last summer. Laggan round of SXC was pretty technical in places, I entered the Cathkin Braes round but broke my wrist practicing the lap. The Big Dog course was far from dull, but certainly less technical than either of the other courses (in defence of Cathkin I was trying out the hardest of 3 lines at one point on the course and just totally f’d it up – and probably wouldn’t have used it during the race anyway). Not that I managed not to fall off of course.

My Strava informed me that the Laggan XC course took in a stage from last year’s SES – and whilst the broken wrist taught me to fit a dropper, the level of skill in the field to ride it at speed, saddle up on lightweight hardtails with fast tyres was quite impressive.

To be honest, it’s probably the danger that would put me off XC rather than anything else. Pads just aren’t practical, you’re riding a bike that’s going to be compromised for descending and you’re going to be blowing out of your arse or you’re not pedalling hard enough. That said, there was more racing time (even racing descending time) than an enduro event for less money.

Edit – the fields seemed pretty good and looking at lap times, coming 4th in the Sport at Laggan I might have just about managed second last or so in elite, so the categories were about right.

Look at it this way, if i go to Swinley, i’m not passed by many guys. However i’m at the back end of a race field…

The question is… how do we/they get the regular guys to enter ? You can’t tell me they’re not competitive, Strava figures show me that a massive number of people are both riding and timing themselves, you don’t really time yourself unless you’re working for goals… be that time, distance or speed, but all essentially a competitive aspect within the riding.

I have (or had) a couple of KOM’s round Swinley – tank traps being one of them (Just checked and I’m 8th now). I got that when I was training and yet I was no where near the front in an XC race. Strava means nothing really and certainly not when riding XC. Most properly quick MTB riders I know train pretty much on the road or on the turbo. I was only at Swinley that day for some fun rather than structured training and I certainly wasn’t aiming for KOM’s or any of that nonsense.

Just because you’re riding round Swinley on a Saturday and not getting passed doesn’t mean you’re fast. And just because you’re quicker than your mates on Strava doesn’t mean you’re going to place in an XC race.

Maybe regular guys shouldnt be entering, or stick to the fun category. And they tried to change the name in the MSG series and nobody could work out what group they should be in. So they changed it back again…

Just because you’re riding round Swinley on a Saturday and not getting passed doesn’t mean you’re fast. And just because you’re quicker than your mates on Strava doesn’t mean you’re going to place in an XC race.

That SO wasn’t what i was saying mate 🙂

I was saying that if i’m indicative of an ‘average’ MTBer… then there should be a catagory where i’m reasonably competitive, otherwise how are organisers going to attract in ‘average’ guys ? There’s no / little incentive if they’re just going to prop up the back of the field riding mostly alone after the first frantic 2 minutes. I’m not saying i should be able to win a class…. but i feel i ought to be able to at least find a race where i can put in say a 50% finish as i’m not that unfit.

They could rename it “not much fun but you’ll feel good afterwards”?

Nor you – why don’t we get together & have a crack?

After 25 races I’m burned out and don’t have the time now as kids now take priority

If you are happy to do all the hard work I’m happy to provide my thoughts and (mis) guidance based on that experience

in a cyclo-cross race, repeatedly carrying/dragging your bike over/under/through a field because it’s an actual un-rideable swamp (Bakewell) is all part of the fun.

the same thing just wouldn’t be acceptable in a mountain bike race

The course has to be rideable for XC, CX deliberately puts things in that aren’t

After 25 races I’m burned out and don’t have the time now as kids now take priority
If you are happy to do all the hard work I’m happy to provide my thoughts and (mis) guidance based on that experience

Interesting, I may well.

Where are you based?

I’m in SW London.

As one of the Banjo Series organisers and ex SouthernXC I think there isn’t really a problem with the format of XC racing or the structure of the events. We saw numbers growing over the last few years post 2012 after we put a lot of promotional effort into getting the races known out there. We always pushed Banjo as starter races for a laugh but the Southerns were deliberately aimed at the really keen racers so they didn’t overlap with Gorricks. There was a progression through the series – Banjo, Gorrick, Southerns, Nationals. And it worked on bringing through talent but needed loads of effort in media and promotion.

Numbers have dropped in the last two years as we ran out of man-power and time to sustain the growth. The growth of CX has taken some riders especially at Banjo and Gorrick races but that is OK because they should cross over back to XC in the spring/summer. CX works because everybody sees it as a duty for the organising club to help out at at least one round so the workload is spread out.

The big problem I see is lack of organisers for entry level races or bigger one off events. Everyone seems to want to start off too big then panic when they don’t get pre-entries and cancel. People need to step up and start taking over from the old organisers (well done Adam btw).

And anyway is it really a problem that XC racing doesn’t get big participation. As long as people are riding bikes!

Weeksy, I think you are a tiny bit in denial about how fit the average cyclist is. Most entry level racers now are people who have come to it through road biking- and the bar for the average roadie is way higher than you probably think- hence why B cat on Zwift is so big- that’s the level most people are at.

Also, none of your riding is anywhere near race intensity. Without at least one ride a week that is simulating a race effort- why do you expect to turn up and race and not get trounced??

In the dry- the technical aspects of most XC races aren’t enough to counteract how slow ‘we’ actually are 😉

And anyway is it really a problem that XC racing doesn’t get big participation. As long as people are riding bikes!

It is a problem if you end up pulling the plug on your series !

Where are you based?

Up north, near enough to binners to know he goes to the Vegan Deli rather than Manning’s bakery 😉

Also, none of your riding is anywhere near race intensity. Without at least one ride a week that is simulating a race effort- why do you expect to turn up and race and not get trounced??

Last time at Swinley on the Kona WAS at race effort… it may not have looked it to you though 🙂

Yes but that was ages ago. People who are genuinely in to racing WANT to train for it. This isn’t a five minute fix. If you want to target a series next year then you need to start planning now.
Except you won’t because that’s not ‘fun’ in your world so we’ll be having the same conversation we have every year next year 😀

Weeksy, I think you are a tiny bit in denial about how fit the average cyclist is.

I disagree, I think he seems to have a very good idea how fit the average cyclist is (not very), and the entire problem is stemming from the fact that neither Cat4 road or Sport XC are accessible in the slightest to them.

Maybe regular guys shouldnt be entering, or stick to the fun category

That’s the problem, regular guys aren’t entering, but that’s not a sustainable way to run a mass participation sport!
It also shows a pretty bad attitude IMO.

To be honest if there were 30 guys entering fun and having a good race I’d stop any training, start consuming more beer and custard tarts and focus on fun. As we have at most four entering fun here that wouldn’t work.

Hey, ! i’m a Zwift convert now.. (no, you can’t quote me)… with the amount of riding/racing i’m doing now you can bet your ar5e i’ll be more prepared next year 🙂

The big problem I see is lack of organisers for entry level races or bigger one off events. Everyone seems to want to start off too big then panic when they don’t get pre-entries and cancel. People need to step up and start taking over from the old organisers (well done Adam btw).

IMHO you need to decide whether you want to make some cash as a business or do it for the love of it and raise cash for charity etc. The two models are different and you mix at you peril.

Big can be done Hit the North was a classic example, it is about the team aims and objectives

Surely the point here is not to fiddle about with classes but to make the races interesting for those who aren’t at the sharp end (hence my random suggestions about format changes)

Another couple of ideas I’ve seen and liked – Erlstoke had a strava segment where the fastest through it on the day won a prize, irrespective of the overall race (shame the weather ruined it) and BBD had a 1 lap challenge which was a great laugh.

More races within races make it more interesting and something normal riders maybe able to attain to. Definitely needs a bit more fun in it, I’ve gone from racing several a year to 1 this season.

And I second the fact that most races seem to be in horrible weather, often I’m looking for something June – Sept and there is very little, so I end up doing sportives instead.

Why do some people here seem to think they should be able to rock up to a sport race and come mid field without training?

That’s what Fun/open are for.