That’s BC look out. The current category promotion rules are terrible. They were 15 years ago. I don’t think they’ve changed much.

Yeah, no different now, you have to be top 15 in Sport to go to expert, which isn’t necessarily that hard if you do the right races, but it means a lot of quick people stay in sport.

I’m not really sure how you fix it though, what’s the better way to do it? If people do the odd race here and there they’ll never achieve the points to move up, so how do you ensure that people are in the ‘right’ category?

Xc and cx should be very complimentary, xc season ends early Aug gives you time to chill then focus on high end speed and cx skills before the end of sept. I basically saw my xc season as a perfect base for cx. More of the guys in Welsh league focus on road in summer. I don’t think popularity of cx is a detractor from xc, if anything it should be an attractor as a stepping stone to off-road riding for roadies.

I think you can still have a laugh around xc races, even the nationals. People are friendly even if wearing Lycra! Actually sport in the national events is better than sport in my region as more people racing not just the fast guy so a bigger spread of ability and closer racing. Plus you normally end up racing the fast guys in open as well so get a good race. I don’t care where I come in a race but I do want a good race. Last round of the Welsh there were 5 of us in sport, I crashed on the first lap and time trialled for the rest of the race as couldn’t catch up. Shame as it was a great course.

Southern xc and Gorrick seem well attended but the population is so much bigger near London so always going to be enough keen people. However if you look at fields for juniors there is 20 entrants when there used to be 70+ when I was racing youth/junior there in mid-late nineties, so there could be more even in those races.

Re. The categories, get more people interested and racing and the categories will sort themselves out as more slower people will be racing back end of sport by default. In Wales we don’t have an open, just fun or sport. Think that works well. As soon as you’I’ve won a fun race you should be banned from fun and go up to sport

However if you look at fields for juniors there is 20 entrants when there used to be 70+ when I was racing youth/junior in mid-late nineties, so there could be more even in those races.

Whilst I was a junior in 2003/4, Gorrick did away with their junior category as no one was racing it. Nationals never had more than 20, and I did at least two races with fewer than 4 entrants

I’m not really sure how you fix it though, what’s the better way to do it? If people do the odd race here and there they’ll never achieve the points to move up, so how do you ensure that people are in the ‘right’ category?

More official BC points scoring categories, and less points to move up. 1 win or 2 podiums are enough to move you up a category immediately, other riders promoted as they accumulate enough to cross threshold. Points scored in lower classes stay on license for 18 months before expiring.
Bottom 10% of riders in each category whose points in lower categories have expired get their licenses relegated.

Ensures that low categories get depopulated of fast riders quickly – gives newly promoted riders a safety net period to prevent category yoyoing – lowers riders that can’t cope back to a more suitable level within a reasonable time frame.

But that excludes riders from a series position in a year they move up. Or do they carry their points into the new category? If you promote anyone who gets on the sport podium don’t you just fill expert with chaff then? Where do you say “ok, that’s enough, you’re ok in Sport”. When you’ve got 200 riders in expert and 3 in sport?

What about non ranked series? Gorrick aren’t (and never will be) BC sanctioned.

That sounds far worse than what we have frankly.

You mean like they have on the road (sort of)

But the road is less series based, the series there are are often 12+ races, not 5, you’ve got far bigger categories categories race together.

So yes, automatic promotion would possibly work if you made the category sport/expert. But that makes it an utterly pointless exercise.

I have to chuckle on here about poeple describing XC singletrack courses as “dull”.

Either you want to go and try Enduro, or you probably aren;t racing hard enough if the course doesn’t become challenging, in the same way Lewis Hamilton driving around Silverstone at 30mph would be “dull”, yet at 150mph, less dull. If you’re travelling anf paying to coast around the woods and are disgruntled about that, thats your lookout.

In the meantime, there is a technical level – ever moving – where throwing a 100mm carbon hardtail down a section become ridiculously dangerous at regional level anyway. Courses need a balance, whereby at a decent speed they are a challenge from a technical and fitness perspective, yet from a Beginner perspective at a slower pace aren’t bloody dangerous.

But that excludes riders from a series position in a year they move up. Or do they carry their points into the new category?

TBH, series rankings are the least of our worries atm. If you have a 5 category system and don’t move people up immediately, you have fast folk ruining the experience in lower categories for 3 years while they move up

If you promote anyone who gets on the sport podium don’t you just fill expert with chaff then? Where do you say “ok, that’s enough, you’re ok in Sport”. When you’ve got 200 riders in expert and 3 in sport?

Valid point, and it does need a critical mass of riders where the 10% getting relegated each year evens out the new promotions. Bear in mind that in a 5 category system, sport itself would not be filled with ‘chaff’, more like fit folks with ~3.5-4W/kg ftp’s and comparable bike handling skills.

Bottom line, nearly everyone in the thread has said the current entry level is so far from entry level that its un-fun and borderline intimidating, and if to correct that we need to overfill the expert class for a few years then so be it.

Re dull courses – if they are too technical you can’t pass easily and all you are doing is slogging your guts out. Personally I think courses should be on the easier side so you can properly race – ie sit back, time your attacks and have to defend etc. Obviously not too easy – not all fire-road – but not all twisty singletrack either.

If you want to be rated more on your technical skills that’s exactly what Enduro is for.

Bottom line, nearly everyone in the thread has said the current entry level is so far from entry level that its un-fun and borderline intimidating, and if to correct that we need to overfill the expert class for a few years then so be it.

I’m not saying that at all. I think the courses getting more technical is a bigger barrier actually.

Timelaps appears to be down at the moment, but I was going to have a look at the variety of speeds for National/Regional/local races, prepared to wager it’ll be a big variety.

I know, that was the last argument i heard for the current system. Series standings would be meaningless as the winner of each round would simply get bumped up a category and no longer be eligible. So the “series” winner would simply be the 6th fastest rider in the 6 round series.

Makes sense, but allows people to stay in the lower categories.

IMHO the Gorrick races that I do have a fair degree of technicality – maybe from the fact that the hammer is down making the stuff harder?

Personally most XC I’ve done is pretty much bang on the money in terms of technicality. In fact the higher up the pay grade you go the more technical the courses become in my experience..

molgrips – Member

Re dull courses – if they are too technical you can’t pass easily and all you are doing is slogging your guts out. Personally I think courses should be on the easier side so you can properly race – ie sit back, time your attacks and have to defend etc. Obviously not too easy – not all fire-road – but not all twisty singletrack either.

If you want to be rated more on your technical skills that’s exactly what Enduro is for.

this and…

njee20 – Member

I’m not saying that at all. I think the courses getting more technical is a bigger barrier actually.

this

I don’t personally have access to any kind of figures or anything but I don’t think numbers have been down at races this season at all. I’ve raced nationals, southerns, easterns and some of the team events and I’d say it’s all very dependant on the course, the weather and the time of year.

The OP mentioned TIYS and the Rampage series in particular which I agree have been down on previous years. With the Rampage series in particular, it comes at the end of a very long and expensive season to be honest. It coincides with a lot of CX racing as well as other races (I know there was a Gorrick race on at the same time as one of the Rampage races) and lots of riders having their own ‘downtime’

I do agree that XC racing probably isn’t quite as inclusive as it should be though. It can be extremely intimidating for an inexperienced racer to turn up and see lots of shaved, oiled legs, team sponsored kit and people everywhere on turbos and rollers etc. Organisers like Mud Sweat and Gears and the Southern XC team are doing an amazing job at trying to make races more accesible and ridable while keeping them technical and interesting enough for the high end riders to race.

Lets not moan about XC racing…lets encourage people to come and give it a go!!!! 😀

From the Gorrick racing i’ve done the techincal aspect is about right… I’m going throuh a debate currently about my 8 year old racing Gorrick as i feel it may be a bit much for him.

It’s the legs and HR that have been my biggest problem. !

Even on Zwift a lot at the moment i’ve just got my FTP to 280W, which has been hard… With my weight being not a million miles from 100kg, that’s putting me at about 2.8W/Kg…. I can’t fathom how i’m going to get over 3.0W/kg, let alone some of the 3.5 and 4.0’s mentioned above… that’s proper crazy !

I’m not saying that at all. I think the courses getting more technical is a bigger barrier actually.

It can be. I’ve seen almost an entire beginner/sport field walk a technical drop/section. The first couple of guys probably had enough space/clear air to ride it. But they bottled it (better to lose 5 seconds walking than the race by crashing) by the time the rest of the field had got there it was walking only. Same most laps, anyone being followed was under pressure, so took the safe option, anyone following didn’t have a clear line.

The elite race had one guy clearing it. Whipped.
Most of the other elites (80% +) rode it with barely even a break in pace.

And that’s the usual argument – Gorricks are the least technical XC race series, but they get big entry numbers and entrants think they’re pitched about right. Southerns are more technical, nationals even more so, and people are undoubtedly put off by the courses. It’s not necessarily a bad thing, there should be promotion, but basically more people are put off racing on technical courses than are encouraged to do so because courses are technical.

The elite race had one guy clearing it. Whipped.
Most of the other elites (80% +) rode it with barely even a break in pace.

Absolutely, but you don’t encourage people in at elite level, we’re talking barriers to entry, and courses where you have to walk the ‘fun bits’ are a big barrier.

Even on Zwift a lot at the moment i’ve just got my FTP to 280W, which has been hard… With my weight being not a million miles from 100kg, that’s putting me at about 2.8W/Kg…. I can’t fathom how i’m going to get over 3.0W/kg, let alone some of the 3.5 and 4.0’s mentioned above… that’s proper crazy !

It’s mostly about losing weight. Unless you are about 10 foot tall a lot of that weight is “waste”, as in no use for cycling XC type events. Even if it’s solid muscle.

As far as i can remember, without digging through paperwork again, i had about 330-340W at threshold, but in my entire racing career i doubt i ever topped 70 kilos. More likely 65 (except in the deepest darkness of winter). And i’m not a huge chunk off 6 foot.

Take a look at this for a bit of an example what I mean:
http://www.sxc.org.uk/forfar-2016

Turnout is so low that field will immediately be spread and the feel of ‘racing’ is gone.
And the top 3 guys in sport are only lapping 90s off Rob Friel, and would have been battling for 5th in elite/expert.

It’s mostly about losing weight. Unless you are about 10 foot tall a lot of that weight is “waste”, as in no use for cycling XC type events. Even if it’s solid muscle.

As far as i can remember, without digging through paperwork again, i had about 330-340W at threshold, but in my entire racing career i doubt i ever topped 70 kilos. More likely 65 (except in the deepest darkness of winter). And i’m not a huge chunk off 6 foot.

Dont get me wrong, i have no problems knowing where my issues lie and where i will get quicker… Wanting it, seeing it and doing it are all different things 🙂

I’ve been a ‘big’ lad for a long time and don’t have the dedication at 45 to get down to a decent racing weight… If i can get say down to 90kg i’ll be more than happy…. i’ve dropped 3kg in the past month from increased Zwifting, local XC riding and a bit of 5-2 fasting… so i’m on the right road.. but it’s tough.

Maybe it’s just the end of season events that have been a bit down.

I just hope Banjo can keep on running Rampage. Seems the epitome of grass roots sport. The racing is competitive, friendly and to a very high standard 😉

Turnout is so low that field will immediately be spread and the feel of ‘racing’ is gone.

Which is, in part, a function of population density. There just aren’t many people up there. Whenever the national series has gone to Scotland the numbers are down. When it doesn’t, the Scots moan that it doesn’t go to Scotland. There’s a point where geography is just to blame in part.

I did my last race a few years ago now, entered fun and sat nervously waiting by my car watching the the pros warm up on rollers and turbos, the bloke next to me in car park even had his coach timing his warm up…imagine my surprise when he lined up next to me….

Haven’t bothered since 😯 😆

I just hope Banjo can keep on running Rampage

both myself and my boy will be gutted if they don’t !

He’s ready for next season already, with luck, i’ll be sticking a toe in too as i’ll be a bit more prepared 🙂

Which is, in part, a function of population density. There just aren’t many people up there. Whenever the national series has gone to Scotland the numbers are down. When it doesn’t, the Scots moan that it doesn’t go to Scotland. There’s a point where geography is just to blame in part.

For sure – its a long way to travel which doesn’t help at all. All the more reason why it better be a damn good experience when you get there.
But there should in theory be ample population to support it – ‘local’ cricket league as 7 divisions I think, and a hell of a lot more people own MTB’s than cricket bats.

I haven’t raced XC for quite a few years now, mainly because it came as a bit of a shock turning up to what I though was ‘sport’ in nationals only to bury myself and come in the bottom half. Why drive half way across the country to get dropped out the back of an XC race after five minutes, when you can get dropped out the back of a road race after five minutes and only have to drive for half an hour?

At the time of doing the nationals, I was points chasing to try and get moved up a category. I and a number of mates were doing fairly well in the MSG races, regularly getting podiums. However I was no where near getting to expert as the most points available were at nationals and I was no where near the front at the few I did. However I also remember quite a few other sport riders moaning on the bikeradar forum about us turning up saying we should race a category higher – we couldn’t at the time as BC wouldn’t promote us.

It’s the same in road racing now – it used to be that you could race crits and after a few top 5/10’s you’d be a 3rd cat and had a better pick of races including road races. I can’t even get into crits these days as they’re booked up months in advance, let alone contest for a win.

I like the technical courses, however having raced a Nat at Dalby I can hand on heart say that the drop there is fairly terrifying on an XC bike when you’re at the upper end of your heart rate.

I’m not sure what the answer is but I’d suggest BC need to look at their points system if they’re going to attract new riders. Both Road and MTB have become quite elitist to the point where as a new rider you know lining up you stand very little chance of coming anywhere other than last.

Yes, I’m not sure of the rationale of increasing the required points on the road. When I was a 4th cat you only needed 7(?) to move to 3rd, so 4th cat was a genuine introduction. I did a few races, a couple of DNFs, realised what I was doing, got involved in a few sprints, and got my 3rd cat. Job done. Now it’s 10(?) there are more and more people staying in 4th, which I don’t really understand.

the bloke next to me in car park even had his coach timing his warm up…imagine my surprise when he lined up next to me….

You’ve raced with Gazhurst as well? 😀 😉

You’ve raced with Gazhurst as well?

Funnily, i assumed it was YOU !

In which case I must have overexagerated my post racing updates 🙂 I’m very mid pack Reg A Vets.

Just in reply to your watts/KG – focus on the cardio and strength – if you work out it’ll come off. It’s taken me two years to get to 73kg from 79kg, to 3.5w/KG at the moment.

But I’m also finding a lot of speed ragging my bike around the woods vis a vis I’ve learned to push MUCH harder on my social rides. I “strava’d” 7th overall locally yesterday, but was feeling rathyer queasy at the end of that section – its what you have to do.

es, I’m not sure of the rationale of increasing the required points on the road. When I was a 4th cat you only needed 7(?) to move to 3rd, so 4th cat was a genuine introduction. I did a few races, a couple of DNFs, realised what I was doing, got involved in a few sprints, and got my 3rd cat. Job done. Now it’s 10(?) there are more and more people staying in 4th, which I don’t really understand.

Me neither, I think at the time they were worried that the 3rd cat group was getting too big but therefore I’d reduce the number of points required to be second cat rather than going the other way. There was that story of the bloke from Bristol who started the season as 4th cat and ended up an Elite by the end of the season. I’d like to see him do that now!

I think its changed again as well – 12 points for 3rd, 40 points for 2nd!

Earlier this year I did some racing in Germany, where MTB usually means XC, and the popularity of the sport is massive. I’d kind of expected it to be fire road slogs and fit-but-sketchy euro racers. Turned out everyone was really, really quick, uphill and down. The course was harder than any of the UK national series too.
So I don’t think that a high standard of competition and techy courses are a barrier to participation tbh. It’s almost certainly an image problem.

Kryton57 – Member

In which case I must have overexagerated my post racing updates I’m very mid pack Reg A Vets.

Just in reply to your watts/KG – focus on the cardio and strength – if you work out it’ll come off. It’s taken me two years to get to 73kg from 79kg, to 3.5w/KG at the moment.

But I’m also finding a lot of speed ragging my bike around the woods vis a vis I’ve learned to push MUCH harder on my social rides. I “strava’d” 7th overall locally yesterday, but was feeling rathyer queasy at the end of that section – its what you have to do.

The hard part is fatigue on this sort of stuff. For October stats, Strava has me at 21 hours, 450km, 108PR’s and 20 activities. Although i think if i recall, 1 of them was warm up. Out of them, 6-7 have been outdoors and of them, 2 have been 40-45km rides…. Either way, it’s still a lot for me. According to my calculations, i’ve had 7 days off riding this month, none have been 2 dayers, all singles..
Today, after the 40km yesterday outdoors mostlty on trails/woods, i’m pretty stiff and achey…. so having today off from riding, however i’m wondering if i should also take tomorrow off too…

Lets not moan about XC racing…lets encourage people to come and give it a go!!!!

Agreed, but to do so we need the media to get behind it. Which it won’t. The xc websites like ukxcnews have minimal audience and to be honest are so focussed on the top end are probably intimidating to newcomers, certainly come across as cliquey.

The entry levels for the xc series in Wales were so low this year the future of the series is very much in doubt for next year. In many ways, this might not be a bad thing as going to a few more grass roots events with lower costs and lower technicality may increase interest. Agree with njee increasing technicality is an issue, fast fun singletrack is IMO the key to good racing which is why Gorrick events are so fun.

I used to think we could entice people back from enduro but I think that’s not an option. We need to interest novice racers who fancy giving any form of racing a go. A lot of the time the atmosphere around the arena is soulless, if there is a commentator who is doing more than just calling through the leaders and a sound system it makes a massive difference

Edit.

padkinson – Member
It’s almost certainly an image problem.

Completely agree, and its largely due to the bike media making fun of wearing Lycra, training, etc. Because they’ve been told to sell hashtag enduro bikes, in my cynical opinion. On other forums racing xc is seen a short a bit sad it seeems to me

I’m currently weighing up what racing I’m going to do next year after a year building my base fitness back up.

As much as I’d like to race more on the road, its nigh on impossible to get into any races around where I live and I’d struggle to be back from work in time to do a weekday evening series. Therefore it’ll either be TT’ing or MTB for me next year (if there’s any MTB races left!).

Being honest, its no fun doing races where you know you’re not going to place. As much as I rib Kryton for moaning about his training and racing, I totally understand what it’s like to train 5/6 days out of 7 only to be destroyed by the majority of the field when you race. Whilst I understand not everyone can win, the level at which you need to be to podium or even get a top 10 is mental these days. Or maybe I’m just old and fat…

Sandbaggers – This is what I’ve seen as the no.1 problem for years. I was a very vocal supporter of ditching the Masters category in SXC races, it made the pot-hunters angry, but racing got better and closer in both E/E and Sport as a result.

Series should be more aggressive about kicking people up categories. In Ireland they seem to be good at doing this, with races I’ve attended there having far bigger E/E fields that their populations would have you assume. Even mid series, with some sort of adjusted ranking for points already gained.

Relying on the BC ranking system to do this is short sighted. It took me five years to get from Expert to Elite, with three of those years finishing 6th in the ranking so not getting moved up. I could handily beat most of the guys above me, but geography meant that it was impractical to go point hunting to get the move up. I eventually just phoned someone at BC and made it happen.

Technical courses – Yep, agree. I love a technical course, so much so I’m always the first to throw the toys out the pram if it’s a roadie fest. Can’t go too mad with it though, else you end up with features that the majority can’t ride. Often, technical-when-fast is what you want.

At this point most people could/should be running a dropper post. I have one for next year, more about going faster on the descents, than making anything rideable, but there is a tangible benefit for everyone.

Roadies on plastic bikes – This is a symptom, not a cause IMO. It’s a horribly tough sport to do well at, and most people don’t live near good mountain biking, and are stuck in a weight-is-everying mindset.

I’ve not been on a road bike in over two years, I haven’t shaved my legs in the same time, and I’ve raced an alloy bike for four seasons. Despite this, I’ve got better rather than worse, and enjoyed myself more.

SXC AGM is coming up soon, might be an opportunity for a few on here to put their ideas into action, rather than pointlessly posting them on the internet. Other series are available.

I mean to do more races, but the things that put me off, traveling, i really can’t be doing with traveling for more time than i am going to be racing.

And for whatever reason there have been VERY few XC races round where i live since year2000 in the FoD

And secondly, bikes don’t pay the bills. So whilst crashing is part of riding a bike, make the course too hard and the risks rise.

As for placing, i am going there to get my arsed kicked results are not really the point.

SXC AGM is coming up soon, might be an opportunity for a few on here to put their ideas into action, rather than pointlessly posting them on the internet. Other series are available.

They asked for feedback after last season via a rider representative and were given the exact same feedback along with a fair range of suggestions via the Trail Scotland forum. They then chose to ignore all feedback and carry on exactly as before.
Unsurprisingly, participation levels have not increased.

the bloke next to me in car park even had his coach timing his warm up…imagine my surprise when he lined up next to me….

You’ve raced with Gazhurst as well?

Bitchy!!! If you can’t beat ’em, join ’em 8)

I think the argument about location has a lot to do with the numbers too. As has already been mentioned, the main population being in the South East of the UK is where we’ve seen the biggest turn out at races (during the season).

BC did TRY to get around a bit more last season to be fair to them. I live near Heathrow and the closest National race to me last year was Cannock, still a 3hr+ drive.

We do have a long long wat to go until we’re anywhere near the rest of Europe when it comes to XC racing though. I went to the Roc d’Ardennes World Cup Marathon in April this year. Yes it had a UCI event included in the festival but the weekend was massively inclusive for everyone. It really was just that…a festival. The whole of Houffalize was closed to traffic, almost every big bike manufacturer was there displaying their kit and there was always something on. It made our National races look like the Rampage Series.

Companies are always going on about the decline in sales etc…would it really cost them too much to sponsor and/or turn up to races of all levels? Surely things like that would attract people along??? For example, I recently read something about Evans Cycles only allowing test rides of 15mins around a car park. Not really good enough to sell a bike in my opinion…but imagine if they turned up at a race event with a selection of demo bikes and allowed people to do a lap on one???

Kind of digressing I know but surely it would encourage participation in the long run??