[Closed] Women only train carriages

I've had a few unpleasant incidents on the Tube - don't know any of my female friends who haven't. If I have to get the tube or a train or a bus late at night I will carefully choose where I sit to try and minimise the chance of anything happening. So I'd probably use a women-only carriage, or zone (more likely on the new trains). Likewise, if I'm walking down a street in the dark I will be hyper-aware of who's around and will take evasive action like crossing the road to avoid a single male or group of men. (Men, you can help by making sure you don't accidentally follow a woman on her own - cross the road and it's obvious you're not a threat.)

However I really don't want to have to live like that, so I'd rather they weren't introduced and we didn't try to pretend that it was a workable long-term solution to the issue.

We need to try and improve attitudes as a whole across society, probably starting in schools and with the media.

Sample of one - I've experienced sexual harrassment more than once (from men and women). Come to think of it all occasions were whilst wearing a kilt. I still wouldn't see a carriage to myself on public transport as a solution, and I'm not going to stop wearing a kilt when I want to. I am aware of a friend who has also experienced sexual harrassment (from women) when wearing a kilt.

Ban skirts, I say! Trousers only or clearly everyone of both sexes just gets "a bit rapey".

What would the punishment be for committing an adulterous act in a women only carriage?

I don't see how it is. I don't like the idea but in itself it's not victim blaming, it's giving people more options.

It's a sticky wicket.

Victim blaming implies "it's your fault you were attacked; you deserve to be robbed; you were raped because you were asking for it" which are all bogus. No-one deserved to be beaten senseless, to be sexually harassed, everyone should be allowed to go about their business without someone else giving them a bad day.

However. We don't live in a perfect world. Whilst the onus shouldn't be on a victim to protect themselves from crime, the fact that crime is broadly carried out by criminals who care not for 'should,' it's therefore sensible to minimise that risk.

I've used this analogy before but, say I was in the pub and left my phone on the table whilst I went to the loo, and when I came out it was gone. Did I deserve to be robbed? No. Is it my fault it was stolen? No. Is there anything I could've done to mitigate risk? Wait, actually, yes there was. (Or as a more STW-friendly example; you might well have right of way but that won't do you much good when your bike's under the front wheels of a car.)

We should all be free to walk the streets, to take public transport without being harassed, whether we're female, male or anything else. But until we reach that utopia it's surely sensible to consider all options even if ultimately some of them are really poor ideas, and in the meantime take whatever steps we can to keep ourselves safe.

Now that this thread has run to three pages let's read what he said rather than what was reported:

Some women have raised with me that a solution to the rise in assault and harassment on public transport could be to introduce women only carriages. My intention would be to make public transport safer for everyone from the train platform, to the bus stop to on the mode of transport itself.

Outrageous!!!

hels - Member

OK. So a woman doesn't use the "wimmin only" carriage one night. She is assaulted, and it comes to court. What do you think the defence lawyer is going to say to her ?

My money is on: "why didn't you use the womens carriage - it is your fault - carrying that vagina about in public unprotected".

And if the judge doesn't instantly rip him a new arse, then that's a wider problem with the court system not with the concept here, should be addressed by that means. Ongoing process I reckon though.

(leaving courts/lawyers aside, I reckon there's a specific sort of arsehole who would see it as an invite/excuse though. And a lower grade of arsehole that's less likely to intervene because she's askin for it, the slaaaag. This becomes a balance of harm thing, don't know how it levels off.

But Hels- what do you say to the woman who won't travel on the train today, but would if there was a woman only carriage. That's who it's supposed to help. WTFU? Throw numbers at her? Take one for the team?

johnnystorm - Member

Now that this thread has run to three pages let's read what he said rather than what was reported:

Some women have raised with me that a solution to the rise in assault and harassment on public transport could be to introduce women only carriages. My intention would be to make public transport safer for everyone from the train platform, to the bus stop to on the mode of transport itself.

Outrageous!!!
Posted 2 minutes ago

Did he mention stoning women for adultery ?

OK. So a woman doesn't use the "wimmin only" carriage one night. She is assaulted, and it comes to court. What do you think the defence lawyer is going to say to her ?

My money is on: "why didn't you use the womens carriage - it is your fault - carrying that vagina about in public unprotected".

And that ladies and gentlemen is enforced segregation.

That's a very, very good point.

We see this in cyclist accident reports all the time. "Dave, 36, a keen cyclist from Dorset was killed yesterday after colliding with a Ford Transit. [i]The cyclist wasn't wearing a helmet.[/i]"

Even if it wasn't used as ammo in court (and I'm not convinced that it wouldn't, I think Hels is right), I have no doubts at all that it's how the media would spin it. And then where are we? Neanderthal lads concluding "oh, she's not in the women's coach, she must be well up for it."

[i] nickc - Member
I'm not convinced its the solution.I'm not sure anyone really thinks its the solution TBH, I think like a lot of stuff that comes from Westminster, it's a discussion starter, like we've done here.[/i]

Ok, fair comment. Perhaps I should have said that like others, I agree that segregation doesn't really seem to be the answer.

I agree with Cougar's post at the top of page 3, multi faceted approach to altering behaviour of men who are inclined to behave in such ways.

Not sure what you can do with a heightened or disproportionate fear and threat perception of some people. Just got to try to stop the bad behaviour.

[img] [/img]

Since you'd have to police who goes into a women only carriage then how about just policing the whole platform & train properly.

I'm no expert on train security, but I'd hazard it's easier to police a single carriage than an entire train.

Why not bring back stoning for adultery while we are there.

Dunno about that, but I'd be happy to support stoning for wild exaggeration.

The seem to manage security okay on planes.

And anyway in effect by defining a 'safe' carriage you'd be saying the rest of the train is a free for all, nice 😥

The seem to manage security okay on planes.

That's because being thrown off is a considerably greater deterrent.

And anyway in effect by defining a 'safe' carriage you'd be saying the rest of the train is a free for all, nice

It's not a 'safe' carriage, it's a women-only carriage. If you can't see the difference, I'm not sure I can explain it.

But that does raise an interesting question. Is it particularly wise to encourage all the women who self-identify as "vulnerable" or are otherwise a little nervous of travelling alone at night to sit in one place where all the weirdos know where they are? Carriage 1, women only; carriage 2; sexual predators (buffet next door).

To drag out the cyclists metaphor (as I may have a fighting chance with that one) what you want is more women travelling about at night as they feel safe doing so, in the same way that we want more cyclists on city streets.

Punishing people by forcing them out of public spaces because they can't currently so something every human being has a right to be able to do safely, is not addressing the problem, it is exacerbating the problem.

I don't know what all the fuss is about. If we look overseas to more advanced, forward thinking societies we see that a solution to this problem has already been devised....

[img] [/img]

Scottish Widows has gone a bit OTT.

You do realise those are all men with Uzis under those black dresses.

Not exhaustive, but why not introduce;

Clear tubes for women to walk through from their front door direct to the destination of their choice, be it station/work/coffee shop/mall/park/hairdressers etc.

It would/could look like that old marble helterskelter game from the 70's and keep women segregated from men, and clearly vise versa.

Then each sex could point and laugh at each other for either being "included" or "excluded".

Men and Women are both sexual predators, this isn't a new thing. This has been with the human race since we became the human race. The situation we appear to be in currently is one of threat from each other, be that men/men or men/women or women/men or women/women.

I've no answer other than to implement right now my solution above. 🙄

P.S and can I be allowed a heavy sigh that we are still debating this in 2015.

P.S and can I be allowed a heavy sigh that we are still debating this in 2015.

But Corbyn hasn't changed any of his opinions since the 80s.

can I be allowed a heavy sigh that we are still debating this in 2015.

Of course, and I shall join you if I may. But actually debating it rather than ignoring it is a step forward.

Yup, at least you now have free speech...

You should think yourself lucky 🙄

What's the problem with this? They have their own toilets and changing rooms and the middle lane on 3 lane carriageways seem to be exclusively set aside for women.
Didn't realise Jeremy Clarkson was in the running though.

If we are all using clear tubes to get around can we add some water and turn our cities into an epic waterpark 😀

And the girls can all wear bikinis. Runs off to high five Quagmire

[img] [/img]

😆

Brilliant

Better resolution CCTV with audio and better coverage for evidence gathering and more importantly, increase in officers on trains and platforms, not only a visual deterant to would be offenders, but also there to provide intervention if needed. Education will work on the clueless, but not the determined. Handcuffs and cells are the only way of taking them out of circulation.

If we are all using clear tubes to get around can we add some water and turn our cities into an epic waterpark

Wet t-shirts and better resolution CCTV?

Well, that escalated quickly!

According to my paper of choice whose website I have been reading at lunchtime, Corbyn said women only carriages had been proposed to him by some women, and that it would be considered.

Hardly unreasonable thing for him to say, is it?

Here's what JC actually said (taken from Jeremy for Leader dot com):

[b]End street harassment[/b]
Posted on August 25, 2015
It is unacceptable that many women and girls adapt their daily lives in order to avoid being harassed on the street, public transport, and in other public places from the park to the supermarket. This could include taking longer routes to work, having self imposed curfews, or avoiding certain means of transport.

The excellent work of individuals, campaigns and groups like Everyday Sexism and Stop Street Harassment have highlighted just how prevalent street harassment is and the extent to which many women feel uncomfortable, anxious, and unsafe just going about their daily routines.

If elected Labour Leader I would work with women and women’s organisations to take steps to raise awareness and tackle it. As a start I am putting forward the following proposals:

[b]Working together[/b]
Call regional summits of local authorities, universities, transport authorities, police, women’s organisations and campaigns to stop street harassment to discuss practical steps that will tackle this.

[b]Elected representatives[/b]
Encourage local authorities to appoint cabinet positions for women’s safety.
Create a ministerial role for women’s safety.

[b]Police hotline[/b]
Sexual assault and harassment - such as being followed, groped, and public exposure is under reported. Many women feel intimidated, violated, too upset and worried that they will not be taken seriously by the police. I would look into setting up a hotline, which is run by police but dedicated to reporting harassment and assault.

This would be staffed 24/7 by women, and to which women could text or call to report with the confidence that they will not be dismissed. If a home visit is needed for a statement, this should also be done by women.

[b]Public awareness[/b]
Run an advertising campaign on public transport, billboards, TV and cinemas aimed at combating street sexism, and raise awareness of the effects of street harassment.

[b]Consultation on public transport[/b]
[b]Some women have raised with me that a solution to the rise in assault and harassment on public transport could be to introduce women only carriages. My intention would be to make public transport safer for everyone from the train platform, to the bus stop to on the mode of transport itself. However, I would consult with women and open it up to hear their views on whether women-only carriages would be welcome - and also if piloting this at times and modes of transport where harassment is reported most frequently would be of interest.[/b]

[b]Licensing[/b]
Legislate for tougher rules on what licence holders need to do in case of assault on their premises. Include reporting assault and how to respond to assault in the procedure to get a licence.

[b]Tackle drive-by harassment[/b]
Encourage the roll-out to other areas of the successful Bradford scheme to tackle the harassment of women, and encourage police to use public order laws and legislation protecting people from harassment to target suspects.

Hopefully, despite not reading the OP's link, a few people might read this. Victim blaming...victim blaming everywhere. 🙂

EDIT: and despite it being mentioned 83 times in the thread, no mention of [i]segregation[/i].

@Capt Flash. Indeed. I see some education in my future!

@molgrips indeed, but some suggestions are once looked at with fresh eyes, not very good.

Corbyn said women only carriages had been proposed to him by some women, and that it would be considered.

Hardly unreasonable thing for him to say, is it?

Sounds like the rantings of a hard-left Zimbabwe/North Korean type extremist living in the 1980s to me.

No wonder people are flocking to support Liz Kendall - Tony Blair's favourite candidate.

Here's what JC actually said

Deadly - you've been around here long enough to know that nobody is intetested in facts when there's a good rant to be had !!

@deadlydarcy, I'd suggest more officers on transport at those times he alludes to would be more effective than gender specific carriages. If a woman chooses not to sit in a segregated carriage, she could still be assaulted. A more visible presence from police may deter and/or provide intervention.

Indeed DrJ - been guilty of it myself lots. 😆

but some suggestions are once looked at with fresh eyes, not very good.

Absoultely. So if they are formally looked at, they'll get rejected. Still not seeing a problem? If he starts crusading about it, as seems to be the fashion for politicans these days - picking small issues that they think are populist to distract people from what they are really doing - then he'll go down in my estimation.

Anyway this just goes to show how utterly shit the media are. i's headline this morning IIRC was "Corbyn backs women only carriages". Which is a pretty shitty piece of misrepresentation.

[i] 83 times[/i]

Oh my!

Forgive me if this question has already been asked..... What specifically would the Ladies of STW suggest to Mr Corbin, were they to get the chance?

I would work with women and women’s organisations to take steps to raise awareness and tackle it.

That's the crux of that sound bite for me. He's not saying "I will do [something] regardless" but rather "I'll talk to people who are actually affected to establish the best course of action." The rest of it is our glorious media's lazy journalism. Quelle surprise.

Yeah, well, you can prove anything with "facts". I prefer my opinions to be knee jerk and ill informed.

Create a ministerial role for women’s safety.

WTF? Why not just have a person responsible for peoples safety, oh yeah that'll be the Home Secretary then, two of the last 3 being women.

Jesus this women's safety minister guff is something you'd get from any of the Blair or Cameron governments and Corbyn is supposed to be different and the answer to our prayers!!

Oh my!

Well, using a quick cmd-F, it's more like 20ish I reckon...but I was hoping it might be a bit obvious that I was exaggerating, though perhaps you got a bit excited about having something to pick at. 😀

And despite there being no mention of segregation (for christ's sake, take a look at what real segregation means), or "forced separation", people kept mentioning it.

The text of the statement from JC's website seems altogether reasonable to me. As Cougar has paraphrased, JC will actually talk to women and related pressure groups and say, "Hey, I don't experience this kind of thing on a day to day basis, but you guys are saying you do...so tell me, if I had some kind of power to change things, what would you like me to do?"

Fear not The Brick Dragon is here for you

If it is the sort of guff we get from them then why did neither do it then ?

Sorry the brick damn me and my facts 😳