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Lots of folk don't understand the meaning of segregation.
Having a penis-free carriage as an option for women using the tube [b]late at night*[/b] =/= segregation.
*again for those who can't read the OP's link.
Some people are rubbish humans, there are male versions and female versions. I have been on the receiving end from both species and would not like to repeat any of those experiences, people need to look out for one another and the rubbish ones need education. I only just managed to slam the door in the face of a guy who was following me home one night in Edinburgh, ran up to my flat and realised how close I had come, he was still banging on the close door for some time. I have been held up by a grown man in a lift by my throat, I have been punched in the face by a "lady", this all makes me sound like some kind of violence seeking lunatic, I am not, I am just the person who speaks up for people who are being bullied, I am the person who doesn't hide who I am, and that's a big gay if it matters, and that is what gets me in trouble. So should I stop standing up for people, No. Should I grow my hair, wear dresses and hide me, No. I will continue to live my life my way, stand up for what I believe in and use whatever means of transport gets me where I need to be, because I am not being hidden away for anyone.
Sorry that turned a bit ranty there. 🙂
A couple of years ago, I was travelling home from a night out in London. A bloke came sauntering down through and plonked himself next to a single girl in a nearby seat and started to pester her.
She was obviously distressed, especially when the bloke started telling her that he was going to sexually assault her. I stood up and told him to leave her alone.
I'm not the bravest, nor am I the toughest but no-one else on the carriage lifted a finger. I've far too many female mates who've been on the receiving end of this type of behaviour to sit back and do nothing.
Things got heated, a guard was fetched and the bloke was met by Transport Police, but I can understand why some women would want a segregated carriage.
Some people are rubbish humans
yes.
Ok, just spoke to the wife. In spite of her tube experiences, she thinks it's a ridiculous idea. She agrees it's mens behaviour that has to change but she wouldn't want to travel, or our daughters, in a female only carriage.
Isn't this just because his team think he is short of a few women voters ?
assume men-only carriages would look like this TBH:
I was thinking more of a sponsorship deal by the purveyors of [i]gentlemens reading material[/i] that saw the posters replaced with the finest assorted [i]frankie[/i] - it could save an entire industry!
You can of course guarantee that if they did create male-only carriages, the millie-tants would be down the royal courts of justice faster than snapping knicker elastic to complain about it being a breach of human rights though...
You can of course guarantee that if they did create male-only carriages
There's a suggestion to do that? Where can I read about it? Or are you just making stuff up again Zulu?
There are lots of women-only train carriages in India, however there are massive issues there with sexual harassment, assault, and rapes are far too common. Doesn't stop men using the carriages though...
Cheers, Rich
Isn't this just because his team think he is short of a few women voters ?
I think the answer is probably no
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There's a suggestion to do that? Where can I read about it? Or are you just making stuff up again Zulu?
Surely if you create [i]wimmin-only[/i] carriages, then you have to create [i]men-only[/i] ones as well, it's equality, innit?
Oooh, that is interesting ernie.
Id love to know why and how they come up with their ideas.
Jesus Christ. Providing women only carriages is not:
1. Victim blaming, any more than selling hi-vis clothing is.
2. Segregation, which is forced or coercive.
3. Restricting women's freedom, see 'Segregation'.
And the suggestion that we shouldn't at least think about addressing the symptoms as well as the cause (because that's so easy of course) is absurd.
Whether it's workable in this country is another matter.
Can I raise a practical question at this point.... I'm assuming that we're addressing this issue after we've already established a separate carriage for the gingers, right?
Surely if you create wimmin-only carriages, then you have to create men-only ones as well, it's equality, innit?
No, it's really not, any more than for the sake of equality Japanese fishermen need protection from being hunted by whales.
Yeah 1970's solutions to modern day problems, hurrah for Corbyn 🙄
Would they be painted pink and have some nice curtains?
we are STILL in a place where restricting women's freedoms in public spaces is seen as a solution to what is criminal behaviour.
It isn't restricting women's freedom, it is giving an extra option of a carriage free of men, its an extra choice. It is one of many possible "affirmative" actions that shouldn't be necessary but are a response to the way the world unfortunately is.
Can I raise a practical question at this point.... I'm assuming that we're addressing this issue after we've already established a separate carriage for the gingers, right?
Don't forget bloody Christians!
ninfan - Memberwimmin-only carriages
It's interesting that you are heavily hinting this is an 'ultra-feminist' suggestion Z-11, with your obvious references to a Viz character. However the women-only carriage proposal was first made by a Tory minister last year, Corbyn has just revived the proposal as part of his commitment to public transport, and he claims that in debates and discussions some women have suggested it. I would have thought that the women most likely to oppose the suggestion are those who consider themselves to be "feminists".
Also interesting is intense media interest that something which isn't even a policy or commitment but merely a suggestion/proposal by Corbyn generates. Corbyn appears to stimulate more debate from one proposal than the other 3 leadership candidates combined do about their firm policy commitments, sparse as they are - has Liz Kendall even got any?
So because we don't have the recourses to deal with the problem we come up with segregation.
Which will require resources to enforce.
[i]Sex offences on London’s Tube and train network rose more than 32 per cent to record levels last year, according to figures released earlier this month.[/i]
But in context:
BTP recorded 1,399 sexual offences in 2014-15 in England, Scotland and Wales - up 282 on the previous year.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-33979568
There are +24000 trains running every day.
So simple maths would suggest 1 offence recorded per 6000 train journeys, but add in 2500 stations and you get to 1 offence per 6900 train journeys/stations.
Tbf to Corbyn, he's only saying that it should be discussed. I suspect he'd probably come down on the side against it anyhow.
Yeah 1970's solutions to modern day problems, hurrah for Corbyn
Hurray for the 21st century labour party generally.....
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This whole leadership battle is great. If it was made into a film we would all complain its a bit far fetched.
Cant wait for the fallout following the result.
What will the losers do ?
Here's the thing.
The sad truth is that some men are a bit rapey. Some women are a bit vulnerable. Put the two together and it's probably not going to end favourably for the lady. It would be a very, very poor state of affairs if politicians - nay, if everyone - didn't support the concept of investigating ideas as to how we can improve that. The linked article states (rightly or wrongly, I don't know) that "43 per cent of women aged between 18 and 34-years-old living in London had experienced sexual harassment in public spaces." That's a terrifying and depressing statistic.
Segregation is not the answer, you need to attack the problem at source. Education is the answer. Convictions are the answer. Making this sort of behaviour socially unacceptable is the answer. However, some of "the answers" are somewhat difficult to achieve, so I can see why something like this proposal might be being considered.
It's also worth bearing in mind that at this stage it's just an idea. There's a tremendous gulf between "election candidate has made a suggestion" and implemented policy, despite what a Daily Mail headline might have you believe. Essentially, this is how debate is sparked (just as on STW) and "is this a good idea?" - "no" - "all right then, next order of business, Homeopathy in the NHS..."
I'm not sure it's his idea entirely...
As for tackling the root cause of the problem -that's a far more difficult task don't you think?
Corbyn appears to stimulate more debate from one proposal than the other 3 leadership candidates combined do about their firm policy commitments, sparse as they are - has Liz Kendall even got any?
Far as I can tell, the other three's primary policies all seem to be "smear Corbyn." But let's not get sidetracked. (-:
However the women-only carriage proposal was first made by a Tory minister last year, Corbyn has just revived the proposal as part of his commitment to public transport,
Left winger Jeremy adopts a right-wing Tory's idea.
Shocking.
Does this mean that a Tory is committed to public transport, or is it different because it's, you know, The Corb?
As an aside,
If you want an insight into the sort of crap, excuse me, "wimmin" have to put up with then this is worth a read:
https://instagram.com/feminist_tinder
Just 'cos the other 3 haven't a proposal between them, doesn't discount this one being sh*t. TBH if this is the best Labour have got then they'd better get used to staying in opposition for a long, long time.
"Yeah 1970's solutions to modern day problems, hurrah for Corbyn"
It's a 2015 solution in India.
dragon - MemberYeah 1970's solutions to modern day problems, hurrah for Corbyn 🙄
Do you extend that point of view to the Tories dragon.......you know, 1970's solutions to modern day problems, hurrah for the Tories?
[url= http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/women-only-train-carriages-could-introduced-4349573 ]Women-only train carriages could be introduced in the UK[/url]
[i]An MP has discussed the possibility of introducing women-only train carriages to help combat sexual assaults on public transport.
Parliamentary Under Secretary for transport Claire Perry said women only carriages already existed in Japan “because there is a particular problem with groping and low-level violence”.
“It is a very interesting question and I will look at all ideas,’ she said.[/i]
As Woppit points out although his opponents like to portray him as a hard-left radical much of Corbyn's proposals are anything but that.
Just 'cos the other 3 haven't a proposal between them, doesn't discount this one being sh*t. TBH if this is the best Labour have got then they'd better get used to staying in opposition for a long, long time.
I know eh? Women and their pesky 'problems', ha ha! They should just take regular harassment on the chin like the rest of us do. Ha ha!
Although I agree with a lot of Corbyn's "lefty loony" ideas, this one is a total step backwards. You don't protect people by assuming most men are, to quote a previous poster, "a bit rapey". I hope he was just mulling it over and it has been reported as a policy idea by some Blairite.
I've already been teaching my 3 year old daughter about where she can kick and punch bad men *really* hard (partly to explain why she's not to hit/jump on/knee me there when having a bit of rough and tumble around the house), self defence lessons shall continue. If she ever feels the need to use a "women's only" carriage, I will feel I have failed as a parent.
On another point, men are more likely to be attacked than women (ok, not sexually but still this is surely an issue). Should we just put all men in solitary confinement at all times in case they attack each other?
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hels - MemberI am sure he means well (honest) but it is victim blaming
I don't see how it is. I don't like the idea but in itself it's not victim blaming, it's giving people more options. It could easily lead to ghettoisation if done wrong though and for sure that's where victim blaming comes in- "if you didn't want to get sexually assaulted, you should have gone in the women's coach!" But he's talking about a much wider initiative around it too not just a one-element "cure"
As far as enforcement goes, a full size mainline train's about a quarter of a km long with often 1 or 2 members of staff trying to run the whole thing, and between stations it's pretty isolating/enclosing. One carriage is more realistically enforcable with a small staff, and intrusions more easily defined and proven. So I suppose you could say it's[i] pragmatic. [/i] I just hate the normalisation/admission of failure.
But I'm a dude, so, spoke to a colleague who I know won't travel on public transport late at night, she's never had or observed a serious incident but fundamentally feels unsafe, I reckon it's as much a perception thing as the real risk. But she says she'd travel in a female only coach if there was one. Sample of one, conclusive.
Either way there's segregation, it's just that the sort of segregation you get from a woman's carriage still allows them to travel, whereas the sort of segregation from fear means they're not on the train at all. And maybe over time you can fix the underlying cause but do you want to wait years for that when there's a quick if less savoury fix?
Late night trains can be pretty grim for anyone, not just women, better policing and staffing is what's really needed imo. But fear of crime is complicated, just making crime rare doesn't always address the fear. Maybe this as part of a longer term improvement could be effective- don't know. Worth investigating?
It's hardly a new idea:
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/women-only-train-carriages-could-introduced-4349573
[i] has also previously shown that 43 per cent of women aged between 18 and 34-years-old living in London had experienced sexual harassment in public spaces.[/i]
And.
[i] “It is simply unacceptable that many women and girls adapt their daily lives in order to avoid being harassed on the street, public transport and in other public places from the park to the supermarket. This could include taking longer routes to work, having self-imposed curfews, avoiding certain means of transport,”[/i]
That's dreadful. Are Women really having to take these actions, in the UK?
I certainly had no idea, I've haven't witnessed a Woman receiving undesired approach from a man/men so didn't really have an appreciation of the scale.
I agree with CG, as a society we need to sort this and while WoC might reduce a certain number of incidents. I'm not convinced its the solution.
It's been suggested long before Perry, BR used to have them.
In fact Paddick discussed it as a policy in the mayoral elections years ago
Of course every time it's been suggested previously, both left and right said it was a bo*****s idea
Now it's been mooted by St Jeremy of course....
Travelling late on trains is generally nightmarish the drunks are often offensive to most travellers
OK. So a woman doesn't use the "wimmin only" carriage one night. She is assaulted, and it comes to court. What do you think the defence lawyer is going to say to her ?
My money is on: "why didn't you use the womens carriage - it is your fault - carrying that vagina about in public unprotected".
And that ladies and gentlemen is enforced segregation.
Why not bring back stoning for adultery while we are there.
Its well intentioned from what i can see but its up to women to decide if they want this or not as I cannot speak for what makes them feel safe in public.
[i]I'm not convinced its the solution.[/i]
I'm not sure anyone really thinks its the solution TBH, I think like a lot of stuff that comes from Westminster, it's a discussion starter, like we've done here.
Why not bring back stoning for adultery while we are there.
Good point. Women only carriages would be like introducing stoning for adultery.
b r - Member
Sex offences on London’s Tube and train network rose more than 32 per cent to record levels last year, according to figures released earlier this month.But in context:
BTP recorded 1,399 sexual offences in 2014-15 in England, Scotland and Wales - up 282 on the previous year.
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-33979568There are +24000 trains running every day.
So simple maths would suggest 1 offence recorded per 6000 train journeys, but add in 2500 stations and you get to 1 offence per 6900 train journeys/stations.
The problem I have with taking it down to stats is that it depersonalises the issue. This isn't about the likelihood that someone gets sexually assaulted, each one of those is a traumatic event that impacts on someone's life and deserves to be considered as a thing not a statistic.
Are segregated carriages the right approach to take, I don't know, but it's worth a discussion if it might mean fewer women exposed to violence.