I attended a speed awareness course last week (I did 58mph on a 50mph restricted dual carriageway). At that course they said there were 27 national speed limits, such as 70mph for cars on a dual carriageway, 60mph for cars on a single carriageway, 50mph for buses on a single carriageway etc. Most of this is all in the Highway Code. The exceptions not in the Highway Code are things like the Isle of Man.

The speed limit for cars in a built-up area is 30mph. We were advised that a “built-up area” is usually indicated by the presence of street lights and *not* the presence of buildings. We were repeatedly quizzed on this. Again this is reinforced in the Highway Code, which states:

The 30mph speed limit usually applies to all traffic on all roads with street lighting unless signs show otherwise

Gov.uk states:

A speed limit of 30 miles per hour (mph) or 48 kilometres per hour (km/h) usually applies, unless you see signs showing otherwise.

The National Speed Limit (NSL) is indicated by this sign:

On the drive home from this course the speed limit goes from a restricted 30mph, to 40mph (signed) to NSL, indicated by the NSL sign, which is repeated until it returns to a 40mph zone. The NSL section has street lights. Following the logic of the speed awareness course and the Highway Code, that NSL section should be a 30mph limit. Everyone treats it like a 60mph (for cars) and my enquiries to the local authorities so far confirm it is 60mph for cars.

What’s gone wrong here? I notice the highway code says that street lights “usually” indicate a 30mph limit. Isn’t that a bit ambiguous?

Following the logic of the speed awareness course and the Highway Code, that NSL section should be a 30mph limit.

Streetlights means “30mph unless otherwise indicated”

On the drive home from this course the speed limit goes from a restricted 30mph, to 40mph (signed) to NSL, indicated by the NSL sign, which is repeated until it returns to a 40mph zone.

I notice the highway code says that street lights “usually” indicate a 30mph limit. Isn’t that a bit ambiguous?

In a situation where you could be mistaken that you were in an implied 30 limit there are repeated NSL signs to help you out.

Indeed wwaswas, but there are no signs otherwise indicating. The only signs were the NSL signs which – as pointed out – mean 30mph in a built up area.

Dual Carriageways have ‘Street Lights’ As you’ve noticed on your drive home, the advice is really telling you to drive with due care and attention and then you’ll see the signs indicating the correct speed limit. Edited to add of course you still need to understand what the correct national limit is for road types.

mike, that’s the thrust of my question. The speed awareness course repeatedly said NSL in a built-up area is 30-mph. The indicator of a built-up area is streetlights. The only repeater signs are NSL signs, ergo 30mph limit.

Where does it say that?

distance between lights has a bearing too, doesn’t it ?

You’ve answered your own question in your gumph above.
The sign you posted means it is “otherwise indicated” so 60mph unless its a dual carriageway with a denoted central reservation.
You had 30 indicated
40 indicated
then a NSL sign indicating its 60mph
then 40 indicated.
Failing to see why it would be considered a 30?
You did listen to the part about “gateway signage” and repeaters?
You’ve mentioned repeaters already so the gateway signage where it changes are your telltales.
No gateways and/or repeaters means 30mph – everything else is telling you the limit.

but there are no signs otherwise indicating. The only signs were the NSL signs which – as pointed out – mean 30mph in a built up area.

Err, that’s not what NSL signs mean.

It also has to do with spacing of the street lights.

Oh as others have pointed out they have repeated signs on the streetlights to remind you that it’s a NSL area not a 30mph.

Streetlights and no repeaters = 30mph

I assume that until I see a sign informing me otherwise, I’m sure I’ve pissed off a few people in 40mph bits, as the repeater signs for those seem to be totally random compared to 50/nsl ones, but thus far I’ve no points on my licence and haven’t had to attend a speed awareness course.

Where does it say that?

page 43 of my copy of the Highway Code, published 2009 and Gov.uk

Then paste it here as said, the NSL is not the 30mph built up area spead limit.

I see what you are getting at.

Most folk assume National Speed Limit to be 60 mph for cars but your course instructor told you it’s 30 mph where there are streetlights. The wording from the HC might clear it up.

I think you must have drifted off during your course.

Err, that’s not what NSL signs mean.

NSL means national speed limit. In a built-up area the national speed limit is 30mph. The speed awareness course, and the highway code, both advise that a built-up area is indicated by streetlights (@Drac they made no mention of distance between street lights, nor have I yet found that in the Highway Code).

I’ve treated that road – and has everyone else – as a 60mph section for decades. It’s probably intended to be a 60mph section. The supposedly unambiguous rules suggest otherwise.

The national speed limit, as indicated by your sign, varies between 40 mph to 70 mph depending on what vehicle you are driving, what type of road you are and where that road is in the UK.

In the case you indicate I would guess that its a single carriage way and that you were driving a car which would mean that the speed limit that applied to you was 60 mph

I’ve got my speed awareness course on Saturday. This is like a study group.

scotroutes – Member
I see what you are getting at.

Most folk assume National Speed Limit to be 60 mph for cars.

The NSL for cars is 60mph – indicated by the above posted signage.
The lack of any signage or a Gateway indicating 30mph is where the 30mph rule kicks in and this seems to be what is confusing the OP
Its not unambiguous – its very simple – the signage is indicating to you what the limit is.
You are simply failing to understand it correctly.

Then paste it here as said, the NSL is not the 30mph built up area spead limit.

Just click on the Gov.uk link I provided, where it very clearly and unambiguously has a table of national speed limits (NSL) showing built-up areas to be 30mph https://www.gov.uk/speed-limits

NSL means national speed limit. In a built-up area the national speed limit is 30mph.

No it’s not. The speed limit is 30mph, it’s a speed limit applied nationally but not a NSL
The 30 limit tells you it’s 30, no NSL sign as above tells you to do 30mph.

A speed limit of 30 miles per hour (mph) or 48 kilometres per hour (km/h) usually applies, unless you see signs showing otherwise.

OP – right at the VERY TOP of that link you posted…..

Just click on the Gov.uk link I provided, where it very clearly and unambiguously has a table of national speed limits (NSL) showing built-up areas to be 30mph

The OP is correct. That’s exactly what it says.

The NSL for cars is 60mph – indicated by the above posted signage

But it’s not. The National Speed limit varies depending on the road, as I point out with my quotes and references in posts above. There are 4 national speed limits for motorhomes for example, depending on the road. The presence of this sign does not, on its own, tell you the speed limit

That sign will never indicate a 30 limit in a built up area.

If it’s 30mph and there are signs to indicate this, they will look like this:

Not like this

What’s gone wrong is your understanding of NSL.

The national speed limit, as indicated by your sign, varies between 40 mph to 70 mph depending on what vehicle you are driving, what type of road you are and where that road is in the UK.

In the case you indicate I would guess that its a single carriage way and that you were driving a car which would mean that the speed limit that applied to you was 60 mph

This.

I actually find a little worrying you didn’t know that.

mikewsmith – Member
That sign will never indicate a 30 limit in a built up area

You are right, but that’s not what it says in the HC

If only there were a course you could go on and ask this sort of question…

The only signs were the NSL signs which – as pointed out – mean 30mph in a built up area.

no, they don’t. Either they have caused confusion or you’ve got confused by

there were 27 national speed limits

There may be 27 different speed limits, but the term National Speed Limit is usually used to refer to the maximum limit for that type of road ie. 60mph on a single carriageway, 70 on a separated dual carriageway and is indicated by the white circle with black GLF stripe. On an urban single carriageway the limit is usually 30mph, but I’m sure we’ve all driven single carriageways lined with houses etc that were 40 or even 50mph posted limits.

Street lights at 188m (200 yards) or less separation is taken to mean a 30 limit unless (as already pointed out) otherwise indicated so you should get occasional repeater signs after the main larger sign.

scaredypants – Member

distance between lights has a bearing too, doesn’t it?

As does the height of the light, believe it or not.

OP: stop thinking of 30 limits as NSL. They’re not.

The confusion has been brought about by a relatively recent drive to change people’s perception that unless otherwise stated the speed limit for a car being 60mph on a single carriageway road is now 30mph.

30 limits will always have 30 signs on entry and either 30 repeaters or regular street lighting (or signs painted on the road in a couple of special areas such as the new forest).

it’s a speed limit applied nationally but not a NSL

Wow! Mind blown. What’s the difference between a speed limit applied nationally and an NSL?!? Which one fo you think the Gov.uk site refers to?

To be honest I wan’t expecting to be any better informed by this thread. It seems there is plenty of confusion out there.

We were advised that a “built-up area” is usually indicated by the presence of street lights and *not* the presence of buildings.

Instructors have not been to much of rural UK then?

I can think of a good few places where it is 30mph, without any streetlights or regular spacing etc.

Surely *the* indicator of speed limit is sign (including waiting until a sign tells you a change, including variation from 30mph), and you *should* use your judgement and caution over and above this as a driver.

You are right, but that’s not what it says in the HC

True
sometimes people just need to file that with the silly rules about i’s and e’s and accept it

Following the logic of the speed awareness course and the Highway Code

I find it easier to go by the rules rather than the logic.

On my speed awareness course a few months ago the guy said that you can take NSL to mean ‘No Signs or Lights’. So:
No signs or lights = NSL*
Lights but no signs = 30mph
Signs = whatever the sign says.

*NSL sign indicates 60mph limit for cars on a single carriageway.

If only there were a course you could go on and ask this sort of question…

Had I noticed this *before* the course I would have asked. The advice on the course has introduced the doubt, not cleared it up. As has this thread 🙂

Tell you what, stilltortoise – just go under 30 everywhere, you’ll be easy to overtake 😆

The presence of this sign does not, on its own, tell you the speed limit

It does if you’re smart enough to know what type of vehicle you’re driving – and if you don’t then you probably shouldn’t be driving.