Straw causing controversy

It shocked me Mr Straw came out with this.

I can imagine what the reaction on here would have been like if the same statements had come from a Conservative or Liberal Democrat politician.

But what of what Mr Straw said. Surely if someone like him says stuff like this, there must be something in it!?

We have to stop pussy footing around and stop worrying about offending people because they are Muslims. You’ll notice how much Straw backpedalled in that statement by saying that most sex offenders in prison were white (which they are). Can you imagine the reaction if he said that a disproportionate number of violent criminals were black?
The culture, fueled by stupid religeous beliefs facilitates and even justifies this kind of behaviour. He more or less says this.
Basically these are young guys that want to shag some birds, just as we all did in our teens and early 20’s but this difference is we had local girlfriends to do this with.
The lack of respect for women and non-muslims can allow this to happen IMO. It’s the religion/culture to blame. These guys are by far in the minority of Pakistanis and/or muslims in this country just as much as those who carry out ‘honour killings’ and acts of terrorism etc. It’s important to bear that in mind. Also, as Mr Straw pointed ou, you would be more likely to be raped by a white UK citizen (it’s ok to say this though).
Cue the PC brigade to shoot this down and call me a racist or stupid, but if you read this properly you’ll see that isn’t the case. The large part of these communities will be just as incensed by these crimes as the rest of us. It’s religion that has got to go.
So there.

agree with KT, unfortunately certain cultures or religions can lead to slightly different nature of crimes being committed across that particular demographic, addressing this is not at all racist, fascist or intolerant. All walks of life do pretty bad things but understanding the differences that can cause a certain style of crime to become more common in one culture rather than another is fine.

Good example would be violent gun crime being more common is urban areas rather and rural, its ok to identify this and hope to focus specialized resources for this issue into the urban areas and not rural areas…. this is million miles away from generalizing or presuming all city dwellers trigger happy psychos.

Some cultures have different views towards women and sex, naturally the crimes against women and crimes that involve sex can have different reasons behind them – its fine to address this.

There’s some pretty disgusting opinions on that page spongebob. If there is a problem with persons within a certain age, sex and denomination (I’m not saying there is) then it should be dealt with sensitively, quietly and objectively with no room for sensationalism or feeding racists with ammunition, which is where mr straw has dropped a testicle.

I don’t think he has (dropped a …). He’s been about as forthright on something as difficult as this as a polition could be expected to be.

Good for him.

Imagine it was your daughter folks. It’s not on.

With you on this KT

i’m with none of you except the OP.

Straw is a stupid thick populist. I am not suprised at all that he would say something this stupid.

He may be factually correct but the conclusions he draws are highly stupid.

he has previous tho.

Just as well he is of no influence now

One of the most stupid politicians we have ever had in a position of power

Why do these young Pakistani men consider Caucasian girls of a barely-pubescent age to be ripe targets for their predation, but young girls of the same age who belong to their own ethnic group to be untouchable objects of veneration?

Or is that a “stupid” question…

KT sums it up pretty much perfectly for me.

getting pretty sick of the uber liberal crap these days and I have much more respect for people who call is as they see it, if he’s wrong then so what. discuss, educate and correct then move on.

The culture, fueled by stupid religeous beliefs facilitates and even justifies this kind of behaviour……The lack of respect for women and non-muslims can allow this to happen IMO. It’s the religion/culture to blame.

have you got a quote form the Koran or perhaps a religous leader saying sex outside of wedlock with non Muslims is ok ? I think you are you just using your basic prejudice to conclude this?
I have knowledge of this area and I very much doubt that STW is a place to discuss a complicated issue as this. Does it happen? Yes. Is it religous or cultural? No . Crimes are crimes and no religion I am aware of promotes sex crimes. See the catholic priest scandals. Are catholics more likely to be sex offenders? Of course not it is an issue with criminal members of that religion + cover up. I would be very surprised to discover that any of these people are actually devout or mosque attenders but I am happy to be swayed by any eveidence KT can produce to suggest the religion in any way promotes this.

Imagine it was your daughter folks. It’s not on.

I doubt anyone disagrees with this but the rest of your posting is Daily Mail levels of comprehension of a complictaed issue

actually my mistake even they posted this

The Daily Mail quoted Mohammed Shafiq, chief executive of Muslim organisation the Ramadhan Foundation, as saying: “No community or faith ever sanctions these evil crimes, and to suggest that this is somehow ingrained in the community is deeply offensive.”

We should not be worried about being PC on this issue but personally I think it is the fear of fuelling racist that makes people less likely to discuss this rather than fear of appearing to be non PC. Look at this thread anti Muslim from the first reply with some supporting thi view. It is an issue that needs addressing but knee jerk blamings of an entire religion/culture/community for ingrained attitudes towards women is simplistic and innacurate.
PS surely better he had done this as Home secretary rather than in opposition.

EDIT: Whoppit is it not just Pakistani men who try and get laid by white women. Surely we can all agree white women[or men] are more promiscous than Muslim women[men] or indeed any other devout person whose religion preaches not to have sex in wedlock.

Stories like this are always going to stir things up a bit, which is precisely why the media report such things. What the media won’t tell you, is that many ‘Islamic’ communities are already working to address such issues; when I worked as a Youth Worker 18 years ago, we did workshops with groups of young Bangladeshi lads, who had similar attitudes towards women. There was a recognition amongst many in the community, that the problem of young men being required to live a ‘good Muslim life’ in a country where social norms can differ very greatly from their parents’ wishes, created a situation where the boys felt compelled to go out and prove themselves as ‘men’, by having sex with women. If there are no women of your own culture available, you will naturally look elsewhere. As a mixed-race bloke, I did have things somewhat easier, I must say.

The untold stories are things like the number of abortions and adoptions that are prevalent in such communities; the lack of understanding of sexual health amongst Asian women, and ignorance surrounding contraception. Stuff that doesn’t make for juicy headlines, but important issues nonetheless.

Using a different perspective, the sexualisation of women from a very young age is something I find quite disturbing at times, and it’s interesting that the West often seeks to impose it’s cultural values on others, yet could do with taking a good hard look at it’s own behaviour. Certainly, some of the sexist and misogynist comments that regularly crop up on here, show that in fact many White British men have reprehensible attitudes towards women too, as indeed men from all cultures. So it’s not just a ‘Pakistani’ or Muslim’ thing. In fact, it has very little indeed to do with Islam anyway. Islam demands that women are treated with respect. Again, a fact that the media chooses to ignore in favour of juicy headlines.

Personally I don’t think Straw’s done owt wrong apart from choosing one particular group for criticism. Maybe if he mentioned such a thing in the broader context of attitudes towards women in general, then fair enough.

So I’d agree with KT on some points, but from my own experience, it’s not one particular culture or religion that’s to blame, but points towards a deeper and more sinister aspect of our wonderful Western society.

Best not to google Jack Straws brother then 8O.

My considered opinion is that he’s still a fudd.

Still, if you remove the words “pakistani” and “white” from his comments they become completely accurate:

“There is an undeniable problem with a small minority of men targeting vulnerable girls. These girls almost exclusively come from chaotic families. Some are in care. Otherwise they would not be out on the streets, aged 12, 13, 14.”

Why do these young Pakistani men consider Caucasian girls of a barely-pubescent age to be ripe targets for their predation, but young girls of the same age who belong to their own ethnic group to be untouchable objects of veneration?

Or is that a “stupid” question…

It’s not a stupid question. An ignorant one, yes, but not a stupid one.

The question can be simplified thussly, without losing it’s validity:

Why do men consider girls of a barely-pubescent age to be ripe targets for their predation?

To me, this is the question our society should be asking first.

I suspect they were targeting young vulnerable girls not white specifically – it is a part of the way the various communities interact that there are far more likely to be vulnerable white girls than brown

This is only a guess tho

To me, this is the question our society should be asking first.

I could not agree with you more.

Remember this incredible bit of hypocrisy?

To me, this is the question our society should be asking first.

I could not agree with you more.

+1

First i’d like to say that coming from Bradford and having a wife who works as a copper in Keighley i can confirm that this kind of behaviour is sadly quite common.

There are lots of unfortunate young girls, often in care to whom this attention is seen as ‘love’.

It is asian men in this area that do this crime and due to the girls being plied with booze/drugs they struggle to provide good evidence for the police.

Its years since Anne Cryer brought this subject to our attention round here.

My question is why did Jack Straw wait till he was out of power to try and do something? Why did Gerry Sutcliffe wait till he was out of power to try and start a debate on legalising prostitution?

Cowards the lot of them..?

Jack Straw was covered by the subjudicae rules and had to wait for the end of the court case.

Also for ones who didnt google jack straws brother from above post.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/916179.stm

Ee, the dirty nonce! 😯

So, why isn’t jack Straw talking about the problem of middle-aged White men predating on young girls then?

Or indeed white men in positions of power andyoung boys at Kincora amongst other scandals

My wife used to work in a barbers on Abbeydale Rd in Sheffield and thus cut a lot of Pakistani/Asian mens hair. They were without exception, the rudest, most ignorant and sexually demeaning of all the men she had to deal with.

One man with his poor wife (and kids) in tow, told my wife that he “wanted to sniff her c**t”. He was in his 40’s and my wife was 21 at the time.

As an aside, experiences during my life have often led me to wonder if simple manners are part of the Muslim culture, as they certainly seem to be conspicuous in their absence for the majority.

As an aside, experiences during my life have often led me to wonder if simple manners are part of the Muslim culture, as they certainly seem to be conspicuous in their absence for the majority.

See, it’s ignorance like this what causes division between folk.

I can pretty much guarantee I know an awful lot more Muslim folk than you do, STR. And whilst there are scumbaygs in all communities, I’m not disputing that, the vast majority of Muslim people in my experience are decent and polite.

Friend of mine lives in Bradford. His wife is white and blonde. She gets crap off young Asian blokes, which she chooses not to get worked up about, although it is annoying. There are definitely problems within certain minority communities, which should (and often are) being addressed. A young woman who ius a teacher lives opposite me. She’s told me about the grief she gets from some of the young Bangladeshi lads, some as young as 12-13. Yes, it’s pretty shocking. Yes, it should be dealt with. It’s completely and utterly unacceptable. Which is why education and understanding between different cultures is important.

But what tends to happen, in instances such as this, is certain communities then come under fire from ignorant and bigoted people, who have little or no real genuine understanding of communities and cultures outside of their own little bubbles. People like STR in fact; sorry, but you just come across as pretty culturally ignorant on here, based on some of your posts over the years. You certainly don’t help yourself with comments like that.

I’ve known a few Asians/Pakistani’s Elfin who’ve been perfectly fine, decent people.

Don’t start calling me ignorant though when based on my experience of working in Wolverhampton, Birmingham, Sheffield and many other places, including my wife’s experiences, the majority encountered in every day life (not on a social/personal level) are inexcusably rude, ignorant and lacking in simple manners. It’s a fact, however you want to try and twist it against me.

Maybe you have to get to know people from a certain culture before they’ll offer you some simple courtesy, I don’t know, but I speak as I find.

Blah blah blah some of my best friends etc etc etc…

Heard it all before mate. Many, many times.

To make you feel better, I’ve had crap off all sorts; rich, poor, Black, White, Brown, etc. 🙂

Interesting that you’ve chosen to use this thread as a space to vent certain feelings towards particular ‘types’ of people. I’d be more interested in your views on the overt sexualisation of young women, and whether you think this is an issue that requires consideration, actually. Any thoughts?

Setting aside any racial overtones.

Jack Straw speaks the truth.

Various Pakistani groups have agreed that this is a very real phenomenon. By that I mean a growing number of younger lads thinking that these girls are infidels who are dressed provocatively and not commanding the same respect that a female of their own faith would.

Elfinsafety
See, it’s ignorance like this what causes division between folk.

No, its the secular teaching and communities that encourage that. Its the same with Catholic and Protestant schooling here in the west of Scotland. These are the divisive factors in our colonised communities, and the root cause of our ethnic and religious ‘issues’

I can pretty much guarantee I know an awful lot more Muslim folk than you do

Blah, blah yourself – I never claimed to have any ‘best friends’, so don’t start flinging that crap at me.

You seem inable to accept my claim that in my experience Asians are without exception the rudest people I’ve encountered. As it happens, I’ve never had any ‘crap’ off any Asian groups, I just don’t find them (to the most) very polite in daily encounters.

Interesting too that you seemed to completely ignore the main point of my post to pick up on something that you could ‘have a go’ at.

My wife has dealt individually with thousands of men on a daily basis during her career – the incident I mentioned above is just one that sticks in my memory. The comment was in the context of the thread and although Asian/Pakistani men make up a small majority of the people she’s dealt with, they are responsible for the majority of sexually demeaning comments that she’s received. Are you going to accuse her of making it up, or being an ignorant bigot?

The sexualisation of young women is a different matter that I may go into later on. I have no problem with the glamourous side of the entertainment industry, but the age at which sexualisation begins sickens me sometimes – having a 10yr old daughter and knowing that her friends wear thongs and seeing them in high heels etc is bang out of order imo.

its a double edged sword for jack
there is undeniably an issue here, the case proves it
however its a subject easily overegged and dissproportionatly reported by the media
giving fuel to racists and biggots to write off an entire culture as inferior to god fearing white brits

Straw said: “There is an undeniable problem with a small minority of Pakistani-heritage men targeting vulnerable white girls

He said it was a small minority of a certain race in direct response to an actual case of a gang of Pakistani men raping white girls in Derby.

The trouble with this country and this forum, is that if you dare to say anything that could be slightly construed at bigotry, then it’s jumped all over. Tell me what JS said that isn’t true.

When I was doing the workshops back in my Youth Worker days, it was clear that many of the young lads saw White women as ‘inferior’ to Bangladeshi/Muslim women., So, we asked them why they thought this, and tried to work out where the attitudes were coming from.

Now, understand that Sex is not a common subject for discussion in many religious households, certainly not so with many Bangladeshi Muslim households that I have experienced. So, young people are taking clues from where? The Media, shops, the World around them and from peers from other communities. Many of these lads din’t see their ‘own’ women as sexual objects, far from it. So virtually their entire image of female sexuality was coming from ‘Western’ sources. It was White women they mainly saw in ‘skimpy’ clothing, in clubs, being overtly sexual. Hence their pretty ignorant and distorted views and attitudes.

Who is to blame for that? Not Islam itself, as I’ve already explained. Maybe the attitudes of their fathers and other males in their communities din’t help reinforce an sort of positive female image. And sexual segregation meant they would have little contact with women from within their own community. All this, in a society where it’s deemed acceptable, even encouraged, for women to behave in a more sexual manner, and wear more sexually provocative clothing, than the culture these lads came from.

It was hard work to get these lads to change just even a bit. One of them refused to attend the workshops (we had to bribe them with trips to Wales etc as a reward for attending), calling it ‘respec da bitches’ class 🙁

The combination of cultural ignorance and diversity, together with the pressure to prove masculinity, makes for less than ideal attitudes, sadly.

I agree that communities need to do a lot more to become integrated into a homogenised British culture and society, and that various factors influence matters and can act as obstacles.

I don’t agree however that this is an ‘Asian’ or ‘Muslim’ problem. I think it’s a British one.

The trouble with this country and this forum, is that if you dare to say anything that could be slightly construed at bigotry, then it’s jumped all over.

I know. It’s terrible that other people have conflicting ideas to your own, isn’t it? Most annoying… 😕

Hang on a minute, we can’t have politicians saying inflammatory things like that…

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=piiGqzDGvH8[/video]

Good post elf!

Young Pakistani men are picking up very young, vulnerable Caucasian girls, feeding them drink and drugs and making them believe that this is love.

They are then passing the corrupted girls (who, being very young and inexperienced, don’t know any better) on to their older male relatives who proceed to rape them repeatedly.

As I understand it, the perpetrators consider the young girls to be of less worth than the girls of similar age in their own ethic/religious group because of the way they behave and the way they dress, ie: they think of them as “sluts” and deserving of their fate, unlike the girls from their own background, who dress more modestly and don’t behave in as outgoing a manner.

This view is, of course, complete nonsense and totally perverse. The Caucasian victims are simply very young people of a certain social mileu who behave the way they do because they have been raised to see it as the “norm” and dress the way they do because they think it is “fashionable”. Typical teenage girls, in fact.

The poverty of understanding within the group of perpetrators as to these facts which, along with their arrogance and self-assumed superiority (bought on no doubt atleast in part, by their ridiculous religion) leads them to see only white pieces of meat.

This is not just a question of general crime, but is bound up in other, contentious issues of race, religion, culture, misogyny and perverse sexuality and to claim that it is no different from any other superficially similar crime is disingenuous, to say the least.

No Elf – there’s conflicting opinions, then there’s being called a bigot because you dare to post a comment about your personal experiences.

Elfinsafety (we had to bribe them with trips to Wales etc as a reward for attending), calling it ‘respec da bitches’ class

ffs that’s progressive.