robdixon – Member

it’s not a pay cut. They can take redundancy or do a different job and get the same pay for that role as everyone else.

Which unless it’s what they’re currently paid, is a pay cut. What with less being less, and all.

Oh robdixon – you really are the people’s champion aren’t you?
What will it be next – an explanation of slavery as voluntary assistance with personal care and chores around the house?

What goes around comes around…

Unions push for higher pay, therefore using machines becomes a more economical option for the business, therefore staff in that function face either losing their jobs or getting a pay cut.

Isn’t there a similar debate going on in sorting offices, about bringing in machines?

Also, how long have we had ticket machines for? 10 years? 15 years? 20 years? If your job is as a ticket dispenserist…. did you really not see this coming?

as ernie notes [ your input is missed] a pay cut is based on what you were getting and what you are now getting.

Whether they get paid the same as other people who do that job has no impact whatsoever on whether they have or they have not had a pay cut.
If it is less money it is a pay cut.

The individuals in this particular case will have their salaries reduced, allegedly.
This represents a “pay cut”.

Which unless it’s what they’re currently paid, is a pay cut. What with less being less, and all.

Now we have the definition of a pay cut sorted what about the actual issues… If there is less need for ticket staff and more need elsewhere should these people be dropped in on their existing salaries? Again if the new salary was higher should they still get what they were getting before?

Technology will replace these jobs, Oyster cards must have reduced the need significantly. Most cities I go to these days use that sort of technology and they have some staff to help you but the majority just use the tech. It’s a shame that some people will loose their jobs and that other will face a pay cut, but balance that with trying to provide a service to people at a fair price.

There have been ticket machines on the Underground for well over 50 years, but getting back to the OP, the reason for the changes is that fewer and fewer passengers are buying tickets and the majority now use Oyster. What will happen is that ticket offices will close but there will be increased staff presence out in public areas. This means that they’ll be able to help non-regular passengers and will man the gate line and signal the train driver to leave on platforms.
The brunt of the job losses will be for station supervisors who’s role is going to be changed. There will still be 24 hour staffing of the majority of stations as there is currently.
The main problem is the notoriously difficult relationship between LU management and staff.

Now we have the definition of a pay cut sorted what about the actual issues… If there is less need for ticket staff

But Boris Johnson isn’t talking about “less” ticket staff. He has unilaterally decided to shut every single manned ticket office in the entire network, there will be “no” ticket staff.

This is despite the fact that he has absolutely no mandate to do so.

In fact Johnson previously felt that to win the London mayoral election it was important for him to pledge to Londoners that “there is always a manned ticket office in every station”.

If Johnson thinks that closing every single manned ticket office in the network is a good idea then he should make it an election commitment for the next time he stands for election.

I mean he wouldn’t want to be accused of being undemocratic, would he ?

.

EDIT : ” fewer and fewer passengers are buying tickets and the majority now use Oyster.”

IIRC one in five journeys are made by people who have bought tickets from manned ticket offices. Presumably stations through which a great deal of visitors go through the figure is considerably higher.

what about the actual issues…

exactly and what I want to know is why is Darcy alowing his monkey to eat his snake?

well, the monkey’s not going to sit back and let the snake get him first, is he?

Some ticket offices only sell 4 tickets in a c19 hour working day

Really? That seems like a remarkable arrangement. I’d like to read more. Do you have a link about that by any chance?

If Johnson thinks that closing every single manned ticket office in the network is a good idea then he should make it an election commitment for the next time he stands for election.

the only one johnsons interested in is the 2019 general election

What about cost per ticket sold?

Thing is people choose whether or not to use public transport, if there’s a bloody massive queue everytime you want to use it coz the ticket machines are slow then less people will use PT. This is a Bad Thing shirley?

those who choose to move to other roles will get the same pay as people already in those roles.

you mean people who “choose” not to be unemployed get shunted into a lower paid jobs.

you mean people who “choose” not to be unemployed get shunted into a lower paid jobs.

Welcome to the real world

Thing is people choose whether or not to use public transport,

Err…. no. Most users of public transport (IMO) take it because it’s the only practical option, unfortunately that means the customers are pretty much held to ransom by the suppliers – they know that they can charge whatever they like, and provide a p*ss poor service.

batfink – Member

Also, how long have we had ticket machines for? 10 years? 15 years? 20 years? If your job is as a ticket dispenserist…. did you really not see this coming?

Not so much, because as you say machines have been around for years and yet a vast number of customers choose not to use them. Ticket machines fundamentally have failed to replace humans.

if there’s a bloody massive queue everytime you want to use it coz the ticket machines are slow then less people will use PT. This is a Bad Thing shirley?

Or more people will get oyster cards?

(ps. They’re the key here – paper tickets is an outdated business model that technology is replacing)

Welcome to the real world

I know how capitalism works, I was merely pointing out they had very little choice in the matter.

Err…. no. Most users of public transport (IMO) take it because it’s the only practical option

it’s the most practical option for lot’s of people, make it less practical and they will go back to cars (default setting in the UK) and maybe one or two mentalists will try walking/cycling. But yes a lot of transport “providers” act as tho it is the only option.

Besides I thought in these unsustainable times the system was supposed to be enticing the general public into public transport. (at which point mikewsmith’s comment would be much more apt)

Or more people will get oyster cards?

presumably only useful for regular users?

have you veer used the tube, what if your oyster card stops working

or a tourist gets stuck at a barrier when their ticket doesnt work

its already chaos at rush hour,

oyster and the ticket machines are great but they still screw up even bojo admitted that 10% of the tubes 3.5 million daily users dont use oyster, thats a lot of people potentially clogging up the system

johnsons not even doing this to save money, hes doing it because he wants to weaken the workers rights

The tube is a vile method of transport. I had to use it for a month when I was in recovery and hated every second of it. Beats me why anybody bothers.

Quite happy now, having returned to “mentalism”, thanks.

Job threat on the horizon? Start looking around for a different one, then.

Hmph.

have you veer used the tube, what if your oyster card stops working

or a tourist gets stuck at a barrier when their ticket doesnt work

Then having that person out on the concourse to resolve the problem means they are more use than hidden in a ticket booth on the other side of the barriers, unable to leave – this is a good thing surely?

oyster and the ticket machines are great but they still screw up even bojo admitted that 10% of the tubes 3.5 million daily users dont use oyster, thats a lot of people potentially clogging up the system

So, investment in technology on the network has led to a 90% reduction in need for paper ticketing – hence a reduced need for people in ticket offices, when they could be out on the concourse offering information, advice and help to those people who need it rather than being stuck in a ticket booth unable to leave – this is a good thing, surely?

mikewsmith – Member

“you mean people who “choose” not to be unemployed get shunted into a lower paid jobs”

Welcome to the real world

The “real world” also includes huge massive wage rises, even during times of alleged economic difficulties, for people on already staggeringly high salaries which most ordinary people can only dream about.

Transport for London boss Sir Peter Hendy became one of Britain’s highest paid public-sector workers last year with a package worth £650,000.

Mike Brown, managing director of Rail and Underground was paid £476,000, including a £164,000 bonus and Steve Allen, managing director of finance, was paid £451,000 boosted by a £162,000 bonus. The bonus pot totalled £2.5?million.

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/transport/olympic-success-earns-tfl-chief-sir-peter-hendy-650000-as-bonuses-are-paid-8674433.html

Yep, welcome to the real world.

It’s worth remember that we make our own reality though.

‘Welcome to the real world’ is just defeatism and all of this from BJ who described his annual £250,000 income from journalistic activities as ‘chicken feed’. We need some Ukrainian solutions here.

Must admit that it worries me; I was born in London and actually lived there in my twenties and I love visiting the city. But the ticket machines at the tube stations terrify me and I’d rather buy my family’s tickets from a real human being. At major access points like Waterloo or Euston the queues of tourists like me can be long and the prospect of having to queue and use the machines is not a good one.

At major access points like Waterloo or Euston the queues of tourists like me can be long and the prospect of having to queue and use the machines is not a good one.

Buy a travelcard at your starting point.

Buy a travelcard at your starting point.

Or how about having manned ticket offices ?

It’s not like Britain is experiencing a labour shortage……over 2 million unemployed suggests otherwise.

Its not really only about de-staffing though, its also about changing the operational model of Tube stations.

40K when their pensions are taken into account
7 hour working day, 8 weeks leave

If those figures are accurate, Bob Crow is a bigger **** than I previously thought, and I thought big!

But you’d like those working conditions, wouldn’t you. Go on – admit it. You wish it was you, don’t you.

But then, you don’t have a Bob Crowe on your side, eh?

There is no other real option than the tube for many of us to get to work.

I wonder how we’ll be able to buy season tickets.

First, no that’s not true at all, more than 1000 people have expressed interest in the redundancy package- ie, they want to know what’s on offer. That’s not at all the same thing as applying for voluntary redundancy.

It also misrepresents what voluntary redundancy actually is. For example, in my organisation, we were shown the new structure before being asked if we wanted to apply for redundancy. Now, if your post is shown as being proposed for deletion, it’s not all that voluntary, is it?

The signs were there seven years ago……

https://www.tfl.gov.uk/static/corporate/media/newscentre/archive/5267.html

Seems like a good idea, means people can be used where they are needed and not somewhere they aren’t. Odd how people in rural areas can cope with a machine to buy a train ticket from but sophisticated London types can’t cope.

But Boris Johnson isn’t talking about “less” ticket staff. He has unilaterally decided to shut every single manned ticket office in the entire network, there will be “no” ticket staff.

Who’d have thought it a public service used a political football, and yet you want more companies/services nationalised 👿

A lot of this stuff that you’re speculating about is in the public realm.
To my understanding all currently manned stations will still be manned, however the staff will not be inside ticket offices, but out in the public areas so that they’re easily accessible by passengers.
Ticketing systems are changing constantly, so in a few years time physical tickets may not be required.
Maybe, just maybe, LU are taking a big leap to catch up with metro systems in other parts of the world which you guys constantly seem to compare LU unfavourably against – and now you’re complaining about it potentially happening.

The signs were there seven years ago……

And yet a year later Boris Johnson opposed the closure of 40 ticket offices by the then mayor of London Ken Livingstone. He even signed a petition calling for London Underground to abandon plans to “drastically reduce the opening hours” of ticket offices. He also that year pledged in his election manifesto to ensure that “there is always a manned ticket office in every station”.

Johnson expressed strong opposition to the closure of ticket offices, and reduction of opening hours, because he knew that was voters in London wanted.

He might not have meant what he said but that is no reason to allow him to get away with it.

And if he’s just simply “changed his mind” then he needs to say so at election time. Voters are entitled to know.

Much is made these days concerning the alleged dishonesty of politicians, and the extremely poor creditability they allegedly have in the eyes of the public.

If people are really concerned then they need to do more than just shrug their shoulders and accept it.

Otherwise they really have only themselves to blame.

But you’d like those working conditions, wouldn’t you. Go on – admit it. You wish it was you, don’t you.

But then, you don’t have a Bob Crowe on your side, eh?
Granted; and you’re right, I don’t, so I resent!

Johnson made that pledge before the 2008 election not the 2012 one. The figures published in 2007 show oyster usage was 66% on the underground, it is now nearer 90%. I don’t think there is anything wrong with a politician changing his mind when the cost/benefit ratio has changed so dramatically, especially as contactless cards will be able to be used as an alternative to oyster cards, with many of the benefits, on the underground this year.

or a tourist gets stuck at a barrier when their ticket doesnt work

The tourist isn’t gonna be helped by someone sitting behind a window in the ticket office!

Disappointed how rude people have been about the original post.

Someone has posted a caring and concerned issue. If they come from another county, have learning difficulties or dyslexia or are just not brilliant at English, to have been so rude as people were to the OP at the start of this thread is really nasty.

I rarely go to London. The last time I went was maybe 6 or 7 years back. I found it a nightmare to use the underground as I had never used it before and the instructions at the time were pretty dire. I tried to find a person to ask but it was very difficult. At the time I thought it must make a terrible impression to visitors from abroad if its having this impression on me.

Personally I am sick to death of shops and now the underground removing all human contact. Its just signs of more and more greed – as the staff get sacked and moved on to the dole queue, profits for the board of directors continue to rise and rise.

Added to that the expectation of companies that its ok to give erratic (zero hours contracts) and low pay to workers not on a liveable wage as ‘the staff can get the shortfall made up by benefits’ – before long working at the pay rates of India is going to be looking like being rich to the working class here and to those who naively like to believe they are middle class.

You do know that the future changes being discussed by LU and unions is for more staff on duty in the public areas to assist passengers?
The reason why there’ve been strikes etc is down to the relationship between LU and workforce, not down to what those changes are.
There’s a new ticketing system on the horizon, which quite possibly means no tickets at all, and no need for a dedicated card like Oyster. Why would you use expensive space within your property to carry out a function that has ceased to be required?
I don’t see many of you complaining about the loss of bricks and mortar LBS’s. The general opinion on STW is F-them as far as I can see, as price is king, and not service – but suddenly on the Tube its the other way round?

aP – Member

dragon – Member

Seems like a good idea, means people can be used where they are needed and not somewhere they aren’t. Odd how people in rural areas can cope with a machine to buy a train ticket from but sophisticated London types can’t cope.

But Boris Johnson isn’t talking about “less” ticket staff. He has unilaterally decided to shut every single manned ticket office in the entire network, there will be “no” ticket staff.

Who’d have thought it a public service used a political football, and yet you want more companies/services nationalised

so playing devils advocate – what constitutes a ticket office, specifically a manned one. Is this an office where you can buy tickets, either from a man/lady or one that has a machine that you buy from but also has a man/lady standing around being generally helpful..

Isn’t this argument all about misrepresenting the facts a little, or just a bend of the truths, after all the “manned ticket office” in my eyes is open to interpretation..