For my young lad about to do his first gigs.
He is looking at a VOX VT100? I think mainly because of the effects, but I'd like a bit of info myself as he is only 13 and has been saving up so I don't want him to go wrong.
He plays stuff like Bullet For My Valentine, Escape the Fate etc etc.
His main guitar is a Jackson Flying V (can't remember the model was about £500) and a Les Paul copy for more melodic stuff?
Any idea what might be good, better or cheaper?

Vox VT stuff is really really good. You can spend hours just playing with effects and they make everything sound ace. It's like having loads and loads of decent amps all bundled together. You can programme loads of your own channels too. And the louder you crank it, the better it sounds!
Pretty much perfect for playing gigs on. Not too expensive either.

line 6 spider 3/4/whatever number thay are up to now. Great value for money, sensible-to-bonkers range of sounds and silly loud for a 100w tranny amp. For more money you can buy a couple of different pedals/boards to change sounds mid-song.

vox's modelling amps are way better than line 6.
personally i'd go for something more specific sounding but then again i know what tone i like and i don't need a vast array of effects and sounds.

that vox would be great for lad wants it for though OG (i.e. awful metal!)

I really don't like Line6 amps – I do live sound and whenever people turn up with them my heart sinks. The effects sound flashy at first but have a really synthetic sound to them imo. Vox or Marshall are both generally decent – personally I don't like the trend for all amps to have digital effects now though.

grum, you'd love me then (1971 marshall mkII 50w plexi, gibson SG with a george dennis volume boost pedal and nowt else!)

personally speaking I'd go for an amp that doesn't do modelling, and have a separate set of pedals (or 'pod' – multi-pedal) (like what grumm said)

One of our guitarists has a Mesa Boogie amp & separate pedal board, the other guy has a Vox AC30 & separate pedal board. The AC30's knackered though, so he's just ordered a 'powered speaker' (4×10) and will rely on his effect to change the sound

the bass player has a choice of Hartke & Trace Elliott heads and separate speaker cabs. normally he brings the Hartke head & a 4×12 cab, but last week he brought the TE. It sounded soooo much better 🙂

but what do I know, I'm only a drummer 😉

Is the 100W too much for small clubs, schools etc?

Why anyone would want a 100 watt amp is completely beyond me.

I'd say the max is 15 – then amplify through the PA

For me its the smallest amp you can get which give you the sound you're looking for then let the PA do the work.

For me this mean a Tech 21 TM 30 –

http://www.tech21nyc.com/products/amps/guitar/trademark30.html into

either srm 150

http://www.mackie.com/products/srm150/

or srm 450

http://www.mackie.com/products/srm450v2/

or my current favourite for tubeness and versatility

Black Star HT5

http://www.blackstaramps.co.uk/products/ht-5/ht-5.html

Don't even get me started on tube wattage versus solid state wattage

As a guitarist your duty is to provide the tone – loudness/volume and relative level to other instruments is someone elses job

Plum

grum, you'd love me then (1971 marshall mkII 50w plexi, gibson SG with a george dennis volume boost pedal and nowt else!)

Yup sounds great! It seems it's not that easy to actually get an amp without digital modelling etc these days.

Why anyone would want a 100 watt amp is completely beyond me.

So that you can turn your guitar up way too loud and drown out everyone else in the band? Seems to be the main priority of most guitarists. 😉

It also escapes me why a Les Paul copy would be more melodic. Sounds like most people who spout complete bollox about guitars enhanced by pictures/rumours/'facts' from the sixties

Example of which would be Claptons 'Beano' blues breaker tone – which after leaving the amp goes through a mic, cables, desk, eq, outboard compressors, the vaguries of mastering and then through what ever system you're playing it through at home – what exactly are you hearing at the end of all that. Certainly not what Clapton was hearing coming out of his amp

And rest

Makes my blood boil it does

Plum

A 15W amp cannot cope in a rehearsal room situation with a live drummer. Trust me, I know 😉
But on the ither hand, as you say, 100W is probably too much

I always got on well with Marshalls when I was younger and +1 for separate effects.

Don't play anymore now though… :-/

Hmm…can of worms 😉

>As a guitarist your duty is to provide the tone – loudness/volume and relative level to other instruments is someone elses job

Ideally yes – that's fine if you have the luxury of a mixer/PA for anything other than vocals.

Even with an effing noisy drummer I've never needed my 50W (70's hybrid) Peavey wound up very far. Absolutely no idea if that was more or less than 15W, FWIW..

I guess one point of the 100w over the 50w (or below) is it's got and fx loop. But how useful that's likely to be is another matter.

I've settled with a Vox Tonelab (floor unit, uses the same modelling approach as their Valvetronix amps, and very easy to dial-in/tweak ) into my Peavey(set clean) – equally it could drive a PA directly 'cos it's emulating (much of) the amp. I bought it more for a selection of amp sounds, rather than the fx as such, whilst needing soome basic chorus/delay stuff too.
FWIW I'd already tried a Blackstar HT-Dual (mild dirt>overdrive dual channel)pedal – which is excellent in itself, but would be better if it allows a few more channels/level setting (I almost went the ADA MP1 route)

I have a vox vt60 which is easy loud enough for rehearsals and it has some great sounds too. I bought it as it had the best clean tone I could find without spending silly money. I have used it for years but have had a couple of problems with the circuit board, just small breaks in the solder which have had to be repaired but it did do a lot of traveling around in the back of vans! Other than that I can't really fault it, should be great for your lad! I also don't rate the line 6 amps, I have played through loads but have never found a clean tone I like.

I do love my old Vox AD60VT, it's got no lack of power (100 watts is really too much, in most cases) and though not all the sounds are perfect, it's got a lot of fantastic tones. Plus 10 million different effects combos, which are fun to play with though generally, not as good as my standalone boxes.

There's 2 tanges of Vox VT, or there were… Basically, there were blue ones and silver ones. The blue ones were the higher spec, and had better footswitching options, while the silver ones were more budget though still pretty nice. Mine is the blue one 😉 But the VT50 and VT100 are still great.

A tube 15 watt would overpower any drummer. 😕

Add to that – one watt at one meter will cause permanent ear damage.

Going about this another way would be an Adrenalinn III into what ever 'make louder' device you care to put it into. A full range speaker will certainly sound better though.

In my mind if you don't consider the PA/Mixer as an integral part of the band sound you are doing things very, very wrong.

The best sound I ever heard was Amanda Marshall in London. Everyone was using modellers/plastic kit for drums/keyboards. In ear monitoring for everyone. No sound on stage at all therefore no spill into the vocal mics. Whatever came out of the PA was pure ear candy, mixed so you could hear everything in its place. And for the first time ever I could define a stereo mix live.

Loud guitar amps are used as crutch for the less than talented who insist on winding up their current 'this is the bollox' amp to stupid levels in order to get the power amp working at its optimum. **** the lot of em!

Plum

another reason for not going as high as 100w of course is the trouble you have trying to get a nice warm overdriven tone out of it without making your eyes bleed… mate of mine has a JCM800 that he can't use live in his band without running a hotplate/power brake to back the volume down without sacrificing 'that' marshall sound…
i'll be using that same amp a week today at a gig/party in our bass player's basement, which is going to be interesting. and loud. our drummer doesn't know how to hit his kit quietly!
plum dude, most of the gigs we play are in tiny venues where all we have/need is a vocal PA; nothing else is miked up or DI'ed into the desk or anything so your anger probably doesn't apply to such situations. plus i always think i'm way too loud when we play, even when sound guys assure me i'm pretty low down in our overall sound…

I once played with a guy who insisted on putting a fender champ through a Park 50 watt, a bunch of old pedals and the most crackly cables I've ever heard – it was insanely loud in the room. I resorted to wearing industrial ear defenders and firing my the GT5 through a SRM450 (thats 450 watts total) at his head.

****.

Plum

Don't know if the budget will stretch this far, but this is a fantastic amp

http://www.dolphinmusic.co.uk/product/40532-bugera-amps-6262-212.html/?utm_source=google&utm_medium=shopping&utm_campaign=base

oldgit,

grumm is right….. kepp it simple.

I think 100W is probably a bit too much. He'll end up running at half chat. Much better to be running a 30W to 50W cranked up a bit. Plus a smaller amp will be easier and les dangerous for his roadie (you) to lift.

The amps that do all the effects are OK, but in my experience you just end up messing about with them trying to find the magic sound. Personally I'd choose a smaller, straightforward valve based amp, maybe with reverb, then I'd use stomp boxes if I wanted chorus/flanger/delay/etc.

Right now, the 'amp of deire' for me is the new Marshall Class 5. Just 5 watts of pure valve driven aural sexiness. Loud enough to practice with a real drummer! Then if it needed to be louder I'd mike it through the PA.

SB

If he wants a powerful, but practical, all valve rock amp see if you can find an old Trace Elliot Speed Twin. Fantastic amps… I had the 50H head for ages, it's in a similiar vein to a Marshall TSL except with better clean tones. But, why I recommend it is that it has clever power modes- IIRC it could run each valve as a triode instead of a pentode, but that might be rubbish. All I know is, it had a "less loud" mode which meant you could get better sounds out of it at less ridiculous volumes. I had a 4×12 for it but after the first week I never used the full cab again, I ended up running it into just the top 2. it was still pretty damn loud, mind. I missed it a lot but I just didn't have room for it really, the AD60 is just more sensible. But it doesn't quite have the same quality of overdriven tone.

100W is unnecessary for most gigs. 100W is too much for small venues and medium to large venues will run everything through the PA anyway so it's only really outside gigs that need 100W amps. 50W (or a 100W/50W switchable amp is more than enough for the average gigging guitarist.
Whatever it is make sure it has VALVES! Too many guitarists concentrate far too much on the effects and forget about getting an amazing sound just with their amp and guitar(s).
I'd recommend an old (dual channel) Marshall JCM900 or a newer DSL100 head. Available for around £400 second hand. Don't be tempted by a TSL, they are unreliable. If you're after a combo rather than a head and cab then look for either of the Marshall types above (a lot rarer in combo form) or a Laney VC50.
I used to have a JCM900 head and cab and it was great. Not as great as my current Mesa Stiletto Deuce but that was twice the price!

People get too excited about valves IMO, it's been a while since they were hands-down better. Or at least, all-valve. The better valvestate Voxes are a good example, the "uk 80s" mode is very, very close to a JCM. Not better nor worse, just not quite the same.

I agree that some valves (in the pre amp) are better than no valves.

That's not what I'm saying though, I'm saying that all valves isn't better than some valves these days. In fact it's been a while since that was the case. My old Marshall AVT really was worse than a valve amp, but my Vox isn't- and it's a few years old at that. If anything, it's better- wider range of quality sounds, and better dynamic range to boot (ie, doesn't need to be driven to sound good).

I'd say if it sounds good then it is good – regardless of 'valves'/'tubes'.

If I had a choice, which I do, is a Tech21 TM30, HT5, adrenalinn III on A/B/C splitter pedal into Mackie based PA.

Plum

It's not like I tried every amp there is, but years ago I got a Rivera 2X12, and it totally kicks…stuff. Mine has been customized with a switch that cuts out two of the four power tubes (valves, as you would call them) and reduces it to 50 watts, which is plenty loud enough for everything but a concert stage.

I played outdoors once at a mountain bike event, and I finally turned that sucker up all the way. I was told later that you could hear it from distant hills, but you couldn't hear anyone else in the band.

Based on the advice of a professional guitar tech, I use a Marshall extension speaker set directly behind the open-back amp, which he clams gets you more sustain. All I know is, I get plenty.

The Rivera has three switchable pre-amps, two modeled after the Fender (blackface and tweed), one a repro of the Marshall. Even the controls are set up as in the originals, the Fender set of tone controls arranged the opposite of the Marshall.

Just to add, make sure there's an effects loop. Reverb and delay, in particular, work/sound much better when put in the loop rather than straight into the input.

"It also escapes me why a Les Paul copy would be more melodic. Sounds like most people who spout complete bollox about guitars enhanced by pictures/rumours/'facts' from the sixties"

Because Jackson Guitars tend to be quite peaky (i.e. crisp with loads of top end drive) in terms of the overall tone, especially if it's fitted with the active emg pickups which at this price point is reasonably likely. Even a quite cheap LP copy will probably sound mellower (though probably not as crisp) than a Jackson, especially if it's a half decent one with a chamber between the cap and the body.

That's why:)

Mr Womble,

How does any guitar based technology affect melody which is entirely music theory based?

Really I'd love to learn, I can then install a melodicometer on my guitars

Plum

Peoples misunderstanding of musical terms is quite staggering really

mel·o·dy (ml-d)

3. Music
a. A rhythmically organized sequence of single tones so related to one another as to make up a particular phrase or idea.
b. Structure with respect to the arrangement of single notes in succession.
c. The leading part or the air in a composition with accompaniment

melodic [m??l?d?k]
adj
1. (Music, other) of or relating to melody
2. (Music, other) of or relating to a part in a piece of music
3. (Music, other) tuneful or melodious

Plum

I'm talking about the overall tone of the instrument, i.e an LP sounding smoother, I'd expect an LP / LP copy to sound smoother and less peaky than a Jackson fitted with active EMG 60 or 80 series pick ups, that's all. 🙂

I understand what you mean about tone but that does not make it more or less melodic than say a xylophone

A Marshall. I think there's a lot of good advice on here regarding going for a 50. I like the switchable channel ones. So that's my two penneth :-

A 40/50W dual channel Marshall combo.

double post – bugger

no it doesnt, but my point is the jackson may be the better option for metal style riffs, searing solos and shredding the fretboard etc, but for slower more soulful peices, the lp may be a better option. not so much what you play, but how it comes out sounding from the two different guitars, without having to bugger about with the amp on stage…….just that.:)

Great thread BTW
Thanks to oldgit.

🙂

EDIT: How about we all post some tone from our rig?

He seems determined to get the VT100, but I've asked him to go into our local shop Red Fish Music and and get their advice. He won't listen to you lot, thinks youre all probably old duffers! Do you want me to give him a clip round the ear 😡

Melodic was my choice of word, I couldn't think of anything more suitable.

Back to the original point anyway, 50w is about as big as you need to go I reckon, make sure it has a line out to connect to a PA, try loads of different amps, find one that he likes with really easy to replicate settings.

For stage work and studio, I use a Marshal mg15dfx, with effects turned off, all the eqs turned full up, and a Pocket pod using clearly named presets for switching different effects and sounds in….. works fine with pretty much any guitar I put into it. I use that for pretty much everything now cos I'm essentially too lazy not too.