There’s a bit of a catch 22 situation here isn’t there?

If you got caught doping then you are autmatically a liar and not to be trusted.

If you doped and didn’t get caught you will have a vested interest in not blowing the whistle on other cheats.

If you are genuinely clean then you were less likely to be exposed to evidence of other people doping.

That’s not quite true. I’d bet an awful lot on the fact that Bradley Wiggins and Geraint Thomas are clean as is David Millar (taking into account his past indiscretions). Chris Boardman was clean throughout his entire career.

Except, UCI’s list of doping suspicions for the 2010 TdF that was released last week puts Geraint Thomas at a 6/10.

Those in categories six and above (6-10) showed “overwhelming” evidence of some kind of doping, due to “recurring anomalies”, “enormous variations” in parameters, and even the “identification of doping products or methods”, according to L’Equipe.

That’s as much evidence (disregarding testimony from washed-up doping liars) as has ever been levelled at Lance.

Tyler got a vested interest publicity wise…and the unborn twin thing means I wouldn’t trust him especially with a book to flog

Armstrong built a team soley dedicated to one outcome…him winning one race…I think that’s achievable for a clean rider…look at what Wiggo did and I think most of us trust him…same for Boardman…however do these results stand if they were built on the efforts of dopers? (does the fact all/most other teams were the same level this playing field)

What about Cav…he seems in a different league to other sprinters in the TDF…any sceptics about that success?

There’s a bit of a catch 22 situation here isn’t there?

If you got caught doping then you are autmatically a liar and not to be trusted.

If you doped and didn’t get caught you will have a vested interest in not blowing the whistle on other cheats.

If you are genuinely clean then you were less likely to be exposed to evidence of other people doping.

Burn the witch! 😀

Geraint Thomas had his spleen removed. He’s going to have “recurring anomalies” and “enormous variations” in his tests because of it.

Geraint Thomas had his spleen removed

Mmmh – maybe removal of organs should count as some form of doping, after all it seems to have worked for Armstrong 😆

Mmmh – maybe removal of organs should count as some form of doping, after all it seems to have worked for Armstrong

It must save a few grams.

Geraint Thomas had his spleen removed. He’s going to have “recurring anomalies” and “enormous variations” in his tests because of it.

Do you not think that maybe the UCI know about that, and took it into account? Obviously i don’t know either way, but balance of probabilities would suggest they do.

Jamie – Member

Mmmh – maybe removal of organs should count as some form of doping, after all it seems to have worked for Armstrong

It must save a few grams.

Better saddle clearance?

A sure that there was an article some time ago in France (Forget which paper) which intimated that Armstrong’s cancer and subsequent treatment was “deliberate” and he’d done it to improve his performance. 😕

However, it’s often said that you should judge a man by the company he keeps. There are a LOT of people around Armstrong who are tainted. As said on the earlier page, does that mean that he was so awesome that everyone else had to dope to keep up with him? Or is it a case of smoke/fire etc?

Its a possibility Armstrongs cancer was caused by doping – and the treatment he had for it included EPO and steroids ( fully declared) in a combination that is very unusual for cancer treatment.

or everyone round him doped to keep him in contention for the win ….

Do you not think that maybe the UCI know about that, and took it into account? Obviously i don’t know either way, but balance of probabilities would suggest they do.

This is the UCi we’re talking about here. Balance of probabilities would suggest that they picked the names out of a hat and assigned random numbers based on the number of birds visible from the office window. 🙂

In all seriousness, i really don’t think Thomas is a doper his performances are just too credible. That list did throw up some oddities though. I can’t be bothered to look it up but I seem to remember that Millar got a few points against his name and surely given his stance and history he must be the cleanest rider going.

Hamilton lost the plot a while ago with the twins facade. He’s far from a reliable witness.

As for Lance, I want to believe him, but I’m still not 100%. What I struggle with, if he was a cheat how does he sleep at night knowing that he’s conning the Livestrong / LA Foundation and all the people that idolise him? If he is a cheat, then he’s one dark mutha. I can’t believe someone could be that dark.

and the treatment he had for it included EPO and steroids ( fully declared) in a combination that is very unusual for cancer treatment

iirc did he not do some of ithis was to avoid the risk of damage to his lungs to allow him to return to racing? the cancer had spread to his lungs and brain and he did not use one of the usual drugs as it damaged lung tissue…again not that surprising a choice for a sportsman and indicatve of nothing in particular except how driven and focused he was.

As if on cue, Lance’s latest tweet:

20+ year career. 500 drug controls worldwide, in and out of competition. Never a failed test. I rest my case.

20+ year career. 500 drug controls worldwide, in and out of competition. Never a failed test. I rest my case.

He never actually denies taking drugs, he always just says he’s never failed a test.

But then again neither did David Millar or Marion Jones.

What I struggle with, if he was a cheat how does he sleep at night

Never underestimate the power of denial.

Never underestimate the power of denial.

…or good sleeping pills.

If you’re going to dose, you might as well be consistent.

Never underestimate the power of denial.

“Everyone else was doing it so I wasn’t cheating by also doing it”

along with

“people outside the pro sport don’t understand it”

allows for athletes to dope and not question that it’s cheating.

chapaking you make a good point and think the crucial one is highlighted perfectly by finbar:

testimony from washed-up doping liars

If someone’s been caught doping, then they are automatically untrustworthy? They are the ones who will have seen others doping, but we can never trust them?

Sorry but that’s too black and white/naive for me – I suspect the majority of pros are doping, not the other way round.

Anyway why isn’t Lance instgating libel and slander proceedings?

May I suggest those who havn’t, read ‘In Search of Robert Millar: Unravelling the Mystery Surrounding Britain’s Most Successful Tour De France Cyclist’ do so. It has a thought provoking ‘take’ on cycling/drug taking…things have become tangental since those days with respect ‘simple’ tissue repair and ‘performance enhancement’, but an interesting read nonetheless and one can understand how the ‘spectre’ has evolved.

Out of all the cycling books I’ve read; the LA’s series and others that include this and the one where the entire book is just one race (can never remember the name) then the latter two are about the best…for me, with Robert Millar topping out. Insidentally, he was years ahead of the game with respect to diet…yet, pooh-poohed by his ‘steak-muncing’ euro-peers.

“The Race” 😛

This is the UCi we’re talking about here. Balance of probabilities would suggest that they picked the names out of a hat and assigned random numbers based on the number of birds visible from the office window.

Touche 😆

If someone’s been caught doping, then they are automatically untrustworthy? They are the ones who will have seen others doping, but we can never trust them?

Sorry but that’s too black and white/naive for me

it is not that they are automatically untrustworthy but they are a know liar. It becomes difficult to trust the word of someone who is known to be untrustworthy [ with a book to push]. It would be naive to ignore this but it does not make what he is saying now automatically untrue but it does introduce greater doubt.

Wiggins went from a near podium finish one year to a bit of a disaster the next – perhaps he got wind of the UCI’s suspicions and stopped doping? Seems to be about as much evidence against him as there is against Armstrong.

Mogrim – there is loads of evidence against Armstronmg – sworn statements, retrospective blood tests, many of his co riders arenow known to have doped etc etc

JY I agree but that’s not how it’s usually presented.

IMO it’s more likely that Lance doped than Hamilton is lying.

sworn statements

– Not actually evidence, though.

many of his co riders arenow known to have doped

– guilt by association? I can see that standing up in court.

evidence not proof CFH

Here we go again… TJ, like it or not Armstrong is innocent until proven otherwise. There’s circumstantial evidence, finger pointing (usually from those with an agenda of their own) but nothing concrete at all. In any court of law as it stands, he is innocent.

You may think he’s guilty, you’re perfectly entitled to your own opinion but don’t go spouting it off as though it’s fact.

As I said before, this crusade to prove Armstrong guilty is doing far more damage to the sport that a concerted campaign to get rid of doping full stop and to catch the “lesser” riders.

Crazylegs – I said evidence not proof. You admit there is evidence so why attack me?

And despite what you say a lot of the evidence is pretty strong.

the evidence is inconclusive [you can put a credible case fwd for either position] but at this time he has not been found guilty so he has to be assumed to be innocent..his return certainly showed he was a phenomenal athlete and the winner may have cheated.
I am not sure but nothing a lieing cheat says will convince me one way or the other

We are so obsessed in our fully black vs fully white western mentalities that as soon as some measure of discredit falls on one party then that party can no longer be right in any way shape or form. And that’s just nuts. Tyler Hamilton was a doper, and has been caught – that doesn’t mean everything he says is a lie!

So anyway, never mind Armstrong, is Tyler’s book any good? 😉

Setting aside the doping, which personally I am certain that all the winning riders have been part of, he did of course race on in the Tour 2003 with a broken collarbone – and won a stage in that condition. Hard.

that doesn’t mean everything he says is a lie

of course not but it does mean that not everything he says is true

i neither no nor care about LA really but if it is so implausable for someont to be better than the others for so long then surely Nico and anne caroline were off their chops on something for most of their careers?

Why can’t you just leave Lance Armstrong alone

My issue with all this – is it is much much harder to prove that you are clean.

I personally think that a cleaner cycling is slowly getting there, but it will never be erradicated.

Lance is a good well known target and that is why people go after him – but deep down I don’t think he is the mastermind behind all cycle doping which some parties are makign him out to be.

As for who is clean – well people liek certain riders and think that thier own personal heros are good and the others bad. Be it the British riders like Bradly & Geraint – who a lot on the continent think are’nt that squeeky, to the older generations like Greg LeMond even (He who shouts loudest often are ones having something to hide).

I hope they do find real evidence (not hearsay) that a cheater has cheated – which is where the UCI must get thier house in order.

The same must also happen in other sports – athletics is well tested, but look at tennis , football, rugby etc – the federations there are still too keen to cover up issues and point the finger at cyclign (just like Greg Lemond does to Lance in my eyes).

IMO it’s more likely that Lance doped than Hamilton is lying

yep, spot on cynic-al