Now it looks like Lisbon will be ratified befoe teh election what on earth can Cameron have as his policy on Europe that will be credible and not split the party?

The previous position of a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty is no use -as once it is ratified there is no way of reopening negotiations. Negotiating on individual issues (effectively to reinstate the UK opt outs) will be almost impossible as the provisions are scattered over different treaties and bits of legislation.

The tories have no allies in the EC – having left the centre right coalition to get into bed with some rather nasty types and put themselves firmly on the fringes of the EC parliament.

Anything short of leaving the EC will never be enough for a significant proportion of the Tory party. and much of the rest of it wants a semi detached UK. Some of what the tories seem to want is simply not going to happen. By quitting the centre right grouping they have totally marginalised themselves anyway and their whining will go unheard

I foresee real rows over this and maybe even splits in the party. I just cannot see a EU policy for the tories that has any credibility will the world at large and that will play well with the bulk of the tory party.

Awaits the usual suspects.

TJ, the Labour party had a manifesto promise of a referendum on the treaty. This has not happened.

There are some rather "interesting" people allied to the Labour party in Europe.

Now then, back to your rather routine spouting of what the Grauniad has been saying. Carry on. I'm off to the pub.

Every time they get a sniff of power, they tend to rip themselves asunder over Europe – it'll be fun watching them doing it yet again.

EDIT: Well, Flashy, the first usual suspect turned up and you couldn't actually answer TJ's question – rather, you just had your usual pop at New Labour. And your comparison with who each party has chosen as EU parliament allies, is, even for you, silly.

One thing is certin they will last longer than Liverpool

CFH – come on sir – play the game?

I had hoped you could enlighten me as to a credible policy position that Cameron might adopt?

I had hoped you could enlighten me as to a credible policy position that Cameron might adopt?

😕

Could always just do a Blair/Mendleson and lie ?

One thing is certin they will last longer than Liverpool

😆
😆

Not saying much though (and I'm a fan of the red ones not the blues though!!)

I reckon it will be loads of blather full of resounding stuff like " repatriate powers" and " renegotiate optouts" He will attempt to give the tory xenophobic tendency a clear impression that they will do something whilst making absolutely no commitments as he is not thick enough to believe he can get what the xenophobes want without leaving the EU altogether

I'm glad I have Oz citizenship to fall back on.

Europe is going to be run by autocratic bureaucrats, and our voice will not be heard. The new Holy Roman Empire is waiting for El Supremo Blair to press the starter button.

Europe is going to be run by autocratic bureaucrats, and our voice will not be heard

Nothing that we're not accustomed to then ?

Awaits the usual suspects.

At least no one's added inane drivel about pulling up a chair yet 🙂

I never really got the anti Europe thing- all politicians ignore the people I dont see how there geographical base makes much difference
I think , given how pro Eurpoe Blair was he showed immense cowardice at the peak of his popularity not to try and improve the public perception of Europe in this country.
It is an issue like Hanging in that it splits the political parties and the population view differs from the political leaders.
It is difficult to see how Dave will have a credible policy and it is a shame [funny though his reply was]that the CPT wont participate in this debate as he will know more about this than most.

Europe is going to be run by autocratic bureaucrats, and our voice will not be heard

Nothing that we're not accustomed to then ?

Not for the last 12 years at least.

why does the OP care what happens to a political party he doesn't vote for?

why does the OP care what happens to a political party he doesn't vote for?

Now, there's apathy in a sentence.

Generally interested in politics, I find the tory mess over Europe rather funny, I am actually interested in opinions on this but I note non of the usual suspects can rise to the challenge of outlining a credible tory party policy on Europe.

Its much harder to be positive than it is to decry anything the other side say isn't it chaps?

an observation as I am not a member of any poltical party and have pobably voted differently at most elections

DC took a punt that either the Irish or the Czech's would boot it out in 2007, since then the credit crunch has happened and the Irish realised that they made the wrong decision and decided to save themselves voting again (and again) voted yes, Czech's crumbled and now it's going to be signed off. A referendum is pointless as there is no clear question other than the stupid/ not so stupid one of "should the UK leave the EU"

funnily the most fundamental changes in our relationship with Europe have been made by the tory party, joining, mastricht (sic) etc

there will always be the "looney right" as there is the "looney left" hence the air time given to the idiots demanding a referendum anyway on some vague nuance.

DC's problem is keeping the idiots off the airwaves, I imagine GB will be trying to stoke up the flames

I think there is a bigger game being played out with the EU trying to establish it's self as a player competing against the Americans, Russians, Chinese and Indians for natural resources for the next century.

All we have to worry about is which eastern european mafia has moved into our local town and why our local MP is getting away with fraud (and still getting paid)

"The tories have no allies in the EC – having left the centre right coalition to get into bed with some rather nasty types and put themselves firmly on the fringes of the EC parliament."

could you remind me who they are?

Polish president for a start

David Miliband can go on national media and say all sorts of nasty things about him

Lord Summerisle as I am sure you are aware:-

Law and Justice of Poland, and Civic Democratic Party of the Czech Republic plus a few oddballs. Clearly the rather unsavoury fringes of the right – containing anti semites, racists and other unpleasantness best left under stones. Even the americans ( under pressure from teh Jewish lobby no doubt) have been letting it be known that they are unhappy about the Tories grouping.

Basically the tories wanted to leave the main centre right grouping – dunno why really. To qualify as a grouping they need MEPs from more than one country and this unsavoury ragggle taggle group is all they could come up with. Cleverly isolated from any influence in europe now

Hmmm, Really it comes down to whats announced tomorrow – however if it doesn't include the words "referendum on the future direction of the British relationship with Europe" then I'll be mighty pissed!

The logical solution would be to offer the public a variety of options, from integration to free trade only, to complete withdrawal and let them decide which way the party takes it, realistically offering the choice to the people nullifies the "split" within the party as well, nobody on either side of the party can disagree that it should be first and foremost the peoples choice.

I should say, Kudos to "the prince" Mandleson, who's managed to take the choice away from the people and get us into this position despite their own manifesto promises, and now make it all look like Camerons fault 😕

Basically the tories wanted to leave the main centre right grouping – dunno why really

IIRC it was a pledge David Cameron made during the leadership elections to the Euro sceptic wing of the party, which sees European Christian democratics as too pro-federal.

Ta Ernie.

Zulu – the issue he faces with

offer the public a variety of options, from integration to free trade only, to complete withdrawal and let them decide

is that some of these options are not on the table – the rest of the EU won't allow UK further optouts and to reopen old treaties.

He will have to be careful not to commit to something he cannot do such as renegotiate Lisbon. I still think he will go for "waffle lots but commit to nothing"

the latest convincing evidence of the lunatic fringe

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/oct/30/chief-rabbi-poland-michael-kaminski

the problem the right has is that tehy are too obvious, they should just tke money from the russians like the left

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/5200809/Former-KGB-colonel-says-he-paid-late-union-leader-Jack-Jones-200-for-information.html

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article6276267.ece

personally I think the general election is a referendum for whch set of liars and oppotunists you want in. Both main parties had a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty in their manifesto's last time. The issue is too complex for multiple choice options. We just need to pick the best we can at the general election and accept the consequences.

"waffle lots but commit to nothing"

I do fear you might be right – this is very much Hannan's first law of politics (No part is Eurosceptic once in power)

the rest of the EU won't allow UK further optouts

Well, theres a solution to that…

Personally, right now I'm stocking up on rope, laminating nameplates for lampposts, and dropping an Email to Simon Mann to see how much he'd be asking for to perform a Coup in London!

Hmmm, Really it comes down to whats announced tomorrow – however if it doesn't include the words "referendum on the future direction of the British relationship with Europe" then I'll be mighty pissed!

I think you are going to be disappointed.

The reality is, the backers or "friends" shall we say of the Tory party along with those who back Labour call the shots. If Europe is going to come together politically then we are going to go with it because economically it would be disastrous to depart.

The Czechs signing may produce a get out of jail card for Cameron, he can blame Labour for signing up and Hague has already said it would be too difficult to undo what the treaty does.

It tends to be only the "get out of Europe completely" types that want some sort of referendum. All I would say to Euro-sceptics is be careful what you wish for.

the rest of the EU won't allow UK further optouts

I think the problem is that we are crap at negotiating and have being wasting our political capital defending London as a financial centre

the latest "new" thinking is that we need to start making things again, the way that the UK unilaterally applies EU legislation will stiff anybody trying to make anything

with 27 players in the game we will be horsetrading for everything and paying for most of it.

big_n_daft …… what on earth has the Conservative Party leaving the centre-right European People's party alliance, have to do with allegations made by a double-agent against Jack Jones ?

😕

LOL! Is big beautiful? Is a super state necessary? Are you going to starve if you are not part of EU? Is bureaucracy the way forward?

ahh TJ so you are talking about the latest labour smeers…

If we take Michal Kaminski MEP, of the Law and Justice Party – accused by Labour, and David Milliband in his conference speech, as being an Anti-semite, neo nazi.
Maybe this view from Stephen Pollard:

Editor of the Jewish Chronicle, and founding chairman of the European Institute for the Study of Contemporary Antisemitism, I am more alive than most to the dangers of the newly resurgent antisemitism. But there is simply no evidence that Mr Kaminski is an antisemite, only a series of politically motivated assertions. It is not Kaminski who is odious; it is those using antisemitism as a tool for their own political ends who deserve contempt.

and

None of the supposed evidence sticks. It is mudslinging of the most disgusting kind, using a serious and worrying contemporary issue – antisemitism – to further political ends.

I have no axe to grind on Mr Kaminski's behalf. But I do have an axe to grind against false labels of antisemitism. Far from being an antisemite, Mr Kaminski is about as pro-Israel an MEP as exists.

David Miliband owes him a grovelling apology.

link

maybe your Neo Nazis refer to the Latvians and the Fatherland and Freedom Party – the times set out to find them… and didnt – what they did find was the Latvian's paying tribute to those men, some conscripted by the Germans, who fought the Russians

maybe you can fill me in on whats so bad about the Czech Republic's Civic Democratic Party – maybe their claims to have similar ideas along the lines of the British Conservative Party is enough for you? This is a party who has members such as Sasha Vondra MP who were imprisoned for opposing the Communist government of Czechoslovakia (same with the co-founder of the CDP, and President of the Czech Republic, Václav Klaus)

Its interesting to note that the Latvian foreign ministry has had to complain to British diplomats about ‘unacceptable and ‘misleading remarks, the Latvian ambassador has expressed his surprise at the British Governments promotion of a version of history more usually heard from the Kremlin, while the Latvian foreign minister has condemned the smears against his government as ‘historically illiterate'. He has twice had to take Mr Miliband to task personally for his slurs.

are these really the 'nasty types' you refer to?

BTW – this is an interesting piece from the Jewish Centre for Public Affairs talking with the Chief Rabbi of Poland, Michael Schudrich, a couple of years ago – before all this current rucus, and provides a bit of background to the complex issues ongoing in Poland.

LS – Decent defence made there – most of which I have seen before. The latvians and the support shown for the Waffen SS can be seen in many ways. To me it is simply abhorrant. To suggest that they where simple resistance fighters against the Russians is disingenuous at best.

The Poland / Jews relationship is complex for sure and coloured by the hatred the poles have for Islam – they view Israel as a usefully ally against islam and are clearly homophobic and Islamophobic – even if the charge of antisemitism is debatable

Whilst I agree that Miliband and others have used the spectre of facists in this grouping as a political weapon it does not detract from the fact that they are a maginalised grouping on the far right of the EU parliament and part of the reason they are marginalised is the bigotry shown by many of the members.

A very foolish thing for Cameron to do IMO and shows how weak and divided the party is over Europe