20mph speed limits are so damn annoying. No modern cars are geared to run effectively for prolonged periods at that speed, IMO.
I'm in agreement with TJ (it's alright, I'll go wash my hands in a minute, and the dirty feelign will pass with time), my focus sits just fine at 30mph in 4th gear, which leaves me 3 othr gears to chose between for 20mph bits.
I just dont think modern vehicles are designed to do it comfortably/easily for extended periods is all.
My (driving) commute to work is approx an hour each way. It's on a motorway for all but 5 miles. I make my average speed around 25mph.
Two hours of driving means it's stationary for 22 hours at a time.
Neither of these extended sub-30mph activities have made it blow up yet.
my focus sits just fine at 30mph in 4th gear
Is it broken??
My Focus sits just fine at 30mph in 3rd gear. 
IMHO - one of the biggest things they could do is introduce penalties for cyclists in line with those of other road users.
Boils my p*ss watching how many cyclists - daily cyclists who ignore red lights, junctions, paths, solid white lines, etc and just do what they want with impunity.
See how long that lasts if they get on the spot fines, points on their car license, etc - not very methinks....
one of the biggest things they could do is introduce penalties for cyclists in line with those of other road users.
I'm pretty sure most of the things you mention are offences for all road users.
daily cyclists who ignore red lights
If you can get behind the paywall you may enjoy this article in The Times:
"If it’s safer to run a red light on a bike, I’ll carry on doing it: Cyclists can’t be expected to abide by a law that makes them - at times - less safe" (Lech Mintowt-Czyz, The Times, 9th Feb 2012)
points on their car license
?? How would that work??
Can we also put points on car licenses for other non-car offences like shoplifting?
Re. training, and i'm possibly at risk of sounding like I'm victim blaming, but what are people's thoughts on training people how to set off from traffic lights? I've been riding into and out of Manchester for the past four years and I'm always amazed by the amount of people who set off during really busy traffic sat down in a piddly gear and are barely up to walking pace by the time they've crossed the junction. Meanwhile all the traffic are bunched up trying to pass where it's least safe. Obviously educating drivers to have a bit of patience etc is the priority but if you're sat in the blind spot of a 40tonne truck, maybe we should be trying to get in a more visible position as quickly as possible?
I can't help but stand up and sprint away from lights, I get a bit of a gap so it's easier for people to pass once the traffic is a bit more spaced out. Whenever i'm stuck behind a bimbler, i feel like a sitting duck with everyone waiting to turn behind or to try and squeeze past when it's not possible.
hammyuk - Member
IMHO - one of the biggest things they could do is introduce penalties for cyclists in line with those of other road users.
Boils my p*ss watching how many cyclists - daily cyclists who ignore red lights, junctions, paths, solid white lines, etc and just do what they want with impunity.
See how long that lasts if they get on the spot fines, points on their car license, etc - not very methinks....
hammyuk - Member
IMHO - one of the biggest things they could do is introduce penalties for motorists in line with those of other road users.And actually enforce them more strrongley
Boils my p*ss watching how many motorists - daily ]motorists who ignore red lights, junctions, paths, solid white lines, etc and just do what they want with impunity.
See how long that lasts if they get on the spot fines, points on their car license,or take their club card points off them for the fuel they buy etc - not very methinks....
one of the biggest things they could do is introduce penalties for cyclists in line with those of other road users.
I'm pretty sure most of the things you mention are offences for all road users. - [/b]They well may be but its ignored and its not prosecuted at all.
daily cyclists who ignore red lights
If you can get behind the paywall you may enjoy this article in The Times:
"If it’s safer to run a red light on a bike, I’ll carry on doing it: Cyclists can’t be expected to abide by a law that makes them - at times - less safe" (Lech Mintowt-Czyz, The Times, 9th Feb 2012)
Its a red light - deal with it the same as everyone else on the road
points on their car license
?? How would that work??
Easily - more points leads to increased insurance and/or a ban
Can we also put point on car licenses for other non-car offences like shoplifting?
Now who's being an arse? This is about being on the road and committing an offence - you want to be on the road then you obey the rules the same as everyone else has to. If you choose to ride/drive ON THE ROAD then tough sh*t if you don't like the consequences of breaking the rules.[b]
God forbid that anyone one a "cycling forum" would accept that their "right" to be on the road could have responsibilities to their actions. 
hammyuk - Member
Can we also put point on car licenses for other non-car offences like shoplifting?
Now who's being an arse? This is about being on the road and committing an offence - you want to be on the road then you obey the rules the same as everyone else has to. If you choose to ride/drive ON THE ROAD then tough sh*t if you don't like the consequences of breaking the rules.
I don't have a driving license. Where would my points go? My nectar card?
6 is the crucial one for me.
It would mean many traffic lights could be removed and traffic speeds will increase and will stop the desperate "overtake the cyclist before the next jam" we get now as well as reduce casualties all round
Nah, not convinced. I have no problems with people driving around me at >30, none of the accidents I've ever nearly had on the road have been speed related and unmarked crossroads/junctions have far higher accident stats than ones with traffic lights. People don't slow down, they just pay less attention as they EXPECT there to be a sign if there's something that's a danger around.
"If it’s safer to run a red light on a bike, I’ll carry on doing it: Cyclists can’t be expected to abide by a law that makes them - at times - less safe" (Lech Mintowt-Czyz, The Times, 9th Feb 2012)
In these situations, cyclists stay close to the kerb and do not interfere with other flows of traffic.(Times)
Utter rubbish, if you cycle through a left turn or straight on at a T, as claimed in this article, you totally affect the other traffic by narrowing the lanes.
Sometimes I think the people who run the country have no idea what they're talking about.
I'm sure I could find times where it woudl have been safer for me to run a red in a car, can I ignore them in cars too?
How about redesigning car windscreens so you can see out of them more easily?
God forbid that anyone one a "cycling forum" would accept that their "right" to be on the road could have responsibilities to their actions.
I think you're missing the point entirely. Not everyone who cycles has a license to drive. Hence creating a two-tier unequal penalty system. Stupid idea.
Now who's being an arse? This is about being on the road and committing an offence
Yes, but what you are suggesting is punishing someone for cycling offences by penalising their license for driving a car.
I'm not "being an arse" - that makes no sense.
Apart from the obvious legal issues, and the obvious difficulty of enforcing it (i.e. identifying cyclists/bikes), what about folk without driving licenses? Will they just not be allowed to cycle on the roads then?
"A festive custom we could do worse than foster would be stringing piano wire across country lanes to decapitate cyclists",
Matthew Parris, The Times, 27 December 2007
Still find it hard to trust this paper
Point's on the licence isn't a bad idea, it works for motorcycles and trucks, you only get 1 licence for all other vehicles, why should bikes be different?
The problem is, how do you enforce a ban on cycling? The threat of a ban from driving would work in most places, but I imagine a lot of Londoners don't drive at all and therefore could continue to accumulate fines indefinately.
It would also require everyone in the country to be issued with a driving licence.
Point's on the licence isn't a bad idea, it works for motorcycles and trucks, you only get 1 licence for all other vehicles, why should bikes be different?
Because, as you say, it means everyone would HAVE to have a driving license pretty much from birth, then due to the legal ramifications of being licensed etc you'd have to be insured, so another set of insurance would be required and add more cost to cycling, putting more people off it.
There's laws to stop people doing stupid things. We don't need more. They need to be enforced, that's all.
The problem is, how do you enforce a ban on cycling?
Also, how do you uniquely identify a bike? Car-style reg plates, front and back, big enough to be read by ANPR cameras? Mmmm.. nice.
Oh and not to mention setting up a new agency, at least twice the size of the DVLA, to handle registration of all the bikes in the UK (+ transfer of registration when you sell it obviously. Hmm.. What happens if you just sell the frame?)
would also require everyone in the country to be issued with a driving licence.
Including children.
Some classic stuff on here.
Of course it is safer at times to jump red lights - thats because of bad road design and illegal parking.
Chamley - wtf? Of colurse bimblers have a right of use the road as well FFS
Those of you that want to prosecute cyclists for everything lets see some proper management of cars as well- I almost never see a car driving in accordance with the highway code. You know giving enough room and so on let alone parking where ever they want or breaking speed limits.
Zero tolerence works all ways - every car on the roads would be stopped and prosecuted every journey near enough
Classic STW - even a campaign to make cycling better is no good for the STW petrol head tendency
GrahamS - Member
Now who's being an arse? This is about being on the road and committing an offence
Yes, but what you are suggesting is punishing someone for cycling offences by penalising their license for driving a car.
EXACTLY! So you're saying you have exemption from the Road Traffic Act 1958 because you are a cyclist? What makes it ok to commit an offence ON THE ROAD yet have zero repercussions? Because your are a cyclist it's now ok is it? Drive to work and do the same as on your bike and see how long you keep you freedom let alone your license!
I'm not "being an arse" - that makes no sense.
Makes perfect sense - on the road - liable for any offense REGARDLESS OF MANNER OF TRANSPORT.[b]
Apart from the obvious legal issues, and the obvious difficulty of enforcing it (i.e. identifying cyclists/bikes), what about folk without driving licenses? Will they just not be allowed to cycle on the roads then?
Why not? If you choose to cycle on the road then why should you not expect to be punished for breaking those rules in place. There are enough cameras to easily identify persistent offenders, police/CSO's to enforce and fine and if you keep doing it then why shouldn't that "right" be taken from you?
Has nothing IMHO to do with "petrol head" but simply enforcing the rules. There isn't one rule for motorists and another for cyclists in the Road Traffic Act...........
Of course it is safer at times to jump red lights - thats because of bad road design and illegal parking.
No it's not, the safest option is to get the drivers to drive to the law and sensibly. But I agree that generally car users are just as in need of paying attention to their techniques.
Classic STW - even a campaign to make cycling better is no good for the STW petrol head tendency
To be fair I'm both a petrol head and a cyclist who loves road riding and MTBing and from my point of view, I like to think I've got balanced views on this!
No-one should be flouting the law, cyclists shouldn't need their own lanes and special dispensation/road equipment if everyone used the roads correctly, which is perfectly possible (no matter how unlikely).
there are unquestionably places where it is safer to RLJ. then I will do it.
You keep saying that TJ and you are quite correct, but it dodges the real issue which is people ignoring red lights completely as a matter of course.
proven to be wrong - you use less fuel at 20 mph
Unsure about this. My car certainly does not. It does drive fine and I've no problem with 20mph limits but I am sure my car is not more economical at that speed due to having to be in a lower gear.
But anyway - yes to training, yes to better education and communication and yes to better cycle facilities. BUT cycle facilities need to be good. Something they could really do would be to add cycle filters at suitable junctions, which would potentially allow turning left on a red, say.
More severe penalties for people who kill by driving dangerously would be a start.
All of these pleaded guilty and got 200 hours community service...
http://road.cc/content/news/25919-driver-worked-and-drove-all-night-fatal-collision-cyclist
http://road.cc/content/news/38525-driving-ban-and-work-order-hit-and-run-killer-lancs-cyclist
Molgrips its been tested. You are accelerating less so you use less energy. RAC tested it and even with loading the test as much as they could they could only get the cars to use less petrol kept to 20 mph in very unusual circumstances
hamm yuk - I do like your frothing. It's amusing. Do keep it up..!
More severe penalties for people who kill by driving dangerously would be a start.
Doubt it. For most people having to live with having killed an innocent person is far worse punishment than anything else.
Molgrips its been tested. You are accelerating less so you use less energy
Then I doubt their test set-up. Depends on many other factors. But I digress, this is not important here.
Chamley - wtf? Of colurse bimblers have a right of use the road as well FFS
Yeah fair enough i knew that wouldn't go down well, thats why i asked for thoughts. Everyone's got their own speed etc once they're moving, some faster than others but I feel setting off as slowly as possible is just stupid. If you're sat in an ASL and a trucks parked up behind you, there's a pretty good chance they can't see you from the cab. Given we're years away from any decent development of cycling infrastructure, it wouldnt take much to give people a bit of guidance about getting in a more visible position. Common sense I would have thought...
Sometimes I think the people who run the country have no idea what they're talking about.
Hmmm... I can't tell if you're just trolling or not hammy, so just in case...
So you're saying you have exemption from the Road Traffic Act 1958 because you are a cyclist?
Nope. In fact the Road Traffic Act 1988 contains specific rules for cyclists (sections 24, 28-32 and 81). And that's fine.
What makes it ok to commit an offence ON THE ROAD yet have zero repercussions?
Nothing. The existing rules can and are enforced. Cyclists are prosecuted for jumping red lights for instance.
So to be clear, I'm not arguing cyclists should be exempt from any applicable road traffic laws.
I'm saying that punishing cycle offences with points on a driving license is completely unworkable.
Also none of this is actually a solution any way. Cars already have reg plates and get points on their license, yet the majority of drivers regularly break road traffic laws. And even when they are repeatedly caught, almost half of drivers with 12 points or more get to keep their license anyway.
molgrips - MemberMolgrips its been tested. You are accelerating less so you use less energy
Then I doubt their test set-up. Depends on many other factors. But I digress, this is not important here.
it was a motoring organisation trying to show 20 mph limits would use more petrol - and failed
Just think about it - accelerating to 20 mph or acceleration to 30 mph which takes more energy? Driving at 20 mph or 30 mph - which has more friction?
Ok - so you might claim the engine is in a less efficient rev range - well use the gears to put it back in that efficient rev range
The reasons cyclists die under the wheels of HGV's is that they have put themselves in a dangerous position - and if you think otherwise go sit in the cab of one and see if you can spot the idiots trying to 'squeeze' though...
And its not just cyclists, m/c's and scooter riders do it also.
And 20mph, why not 10mph - or employ the man with a red-flag?
But if anyone has a problem with 20mph, just get an auto - they're fine for low-speeds.
Graham - no trolling at all! It's a genuine hate of mine - I have pretty much every category possible and spend a lot of money every year in fees, insurance, tax, etc YET the vast majority of both commuting and pleasure cyclists treat the road as their own private track. Sod red lights, give ways, solid white lines, paths and the rest.
Why shouldn't they be penalised in the same way as other road users? Just because historically the right is given to use the road shouldn't give carte blanche to ignore the law governing it.
There should be no exemption at all - there isn't for vehicles so why should there be for cycles? The odd story in the press doesn't count - sit with a coffee near any junction in any major city/town and watch how many break the law. Do it again the following day and see how many are the same people time and again yet they as often as not are drivers who wouldn't do it in the car but think its fine to jump the pavement/red light/etc on their pushbike.
As a driver - if I go through a red light or cross a solid white line then I fully expect to get penalised if caught.
So why should it be any different for a cyclist? Why should I expect to get treated differently because of the mode of transport - if I'm on the road then I should be governed the same.
All road users should be - ESPECIALLY if that cyclist has a driving license. If they don't then they should expect a fine and a requirement for mandatory training. Do it again and the punishment increases in the same way it does for a license holder. Works in other countries - commit any offence on the road and that offence is recorded and if you happen to have a licence then it's recorded on there - a cycle is treated the same as a car.
Why would there need to be a new agency - the rider is responsible so they carry the blame for their actions.
Treat those without a license the same as they are now ( illegal drivers, etc), any offenses go on record and any points go on your "license" held by dvla. Should they then choose to take their test, etc those points gained for the offenses committed become live and they suffer the consequences in the same way those who already have a license do( increased insurance, etc).
Persistant offenders get a court order keeping them off the road in the same way a curfew/tag works now.
Sounds harsh but it's how drivers are treated for offenses on the road and any cyclist doing so should be treated the bloody same.
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