Viewing 40 posts - 1 through 40 (of 80 total)
  • This clean versus dirty carbs/eating malarkey – is my undersanding correct?
  • geetee1972
    Free Member

    I’ve heard a lot about this recently and a lot of what I’ve heard has pricked my BS radar, you know the thing, people saying that this that and the other is bad for you and but not explaining why, and by why I mean the science behind it.

    So having read a bit around it, I wanted to see if my understanding is correct:

    Carbs turn into glucose in the blood which is then absorbed as glycogen into liver and muscle cells to use as energy.

    Glucose stimulates the release of insulin to manage that process, hence we talk about the ‘glycemic index’ of food.

    Insulin regulates/promotes the storage of fat as well as inhibits the use of fat as an energy source.

    Relatively higher levels of insulin in the blood thereby promote the storage of fat/inhibit its use as energy, so high GI foods can have a proportionally higher effect on net fat storage as a result.

    If you’re trying to lose or regulate weight, anything that results in a relatively higher insulin load will make that harder to manage.

    GI is only part of the story; a better measure of this outcome is the Insulin Index which directly measures the proportional effect of a given food on the release of insulin into the blood stream.

    How well does this summarise the situation?

    CaptJon
    Free Member

    I’m not sure it is entirely that simple. For instance, I may have imagined it, but i think i read something about eating simple carbs with high fibre stuff to reduce the insulin spike.

    molgrips will be along shortly…

    Northwind
    Full Member

    Halfords sell carb cleaner for £6.99, might be the solution to all this.

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    geetee1972
    Free Member

    OK it’s never going to be that simple but effectively it is about how much insulin is released and the net effect of that?

    molgrips
    Free Member

    That’s pretty much correct.

    Insulin regulates/promotes the storage of fat as well as inhibits the use of fat as an energy source.

    Its main function is to regulate glucose in the blood, by encouraging cells to take up the glucose. If your blood sugar goes up or down by a fairly small amount, you die. If the cells’ energy stores are full, howver, then they can’t take up any more so the energy gets stored as fat.

    So if your cells are depleted in their glycogen, then insulin is a good thing as it helps replenish the stores quicky. Hence post-ride carbs.

    As CaptnJon says though – the GI of a food is affected by loads of things not just how much carbohydrate is in it. Also, it’s really the contents of your stomach as a whole that are important. So you can eat high and low gi foods together and end up with a medium gi effect.

    Also, other things promote the release of insulin not just eating carbs. Meat does too despite being mostly carb free, and for some reason certain dairy products cause a big release of insulin despite being low GI. It’s certain proteins I think, because if you cook beans a long time (ie baked beans) their proteins change and they end up being high insulin index.

    OK it’s never going to be that simple but effectively it is about how much insulin is released and the net effect of that?

    That’s the idea behind iDave diet yes.

    DenDennis
    Free Member

    my missus keeps going on about the dangers of fructose (very low GI and in lots of energy nutrition products).
    This apparently does not get broken down as easily as other sugars and ends up getting stored as fat on the liver. something like that.

    is that a dirty carb too then? any one know about that?

    deviant
    Free Member

    My understanding is that labelling carbs as good/bad or clean/dirty helps you when determining what to eat, why and when.

    Ideally you would eat low glycemic indexed foods and keep blood glucose levels (and therefore insulin levels) stable without the peaks and troughs associated with faster acting carbs….with everything as constant as can be manipulating weight becomes a lot easier.

    Thats not to rule out high glycemic index foods entirely though, they have their place…pre workout quick energy and also post workout recovery are two that spring to mind.

    molgrips
    Free Member

    pre workout quick energy

    Beware this – insulin inhibits ‘fat burning’, so if you want to be burning fat ie on a bike ride, or you want to train your fat burning metabolism, then you don’t want insulin in your blood.

    I’ve had great success bearing this in mind.

    Re fructose, this is also on the iDave ‘bad’ list. It’s because it promotes the laying down of fat in some other way I’m not to clear on.

    Check this one out.

    Junkyard
    Free Member

    If your blood sugar goes up or down by a fairly small amount, you die

    Well no sugar in your blood will kill you as you have no energy but high sugarlevels are only very bad in the long rung from years of damage

    The amounts involved are farily large

    Hypo being below 4 generally and may look like being drunk can induce death if nothing is done

    As for good and bad no idea as i dont really care but the word Fad springs to mind thought I am sure their is a hint of science somewhere in all the guff out there
    others have very strong views and will be along surely

    you don’t want insulin in your blood

    I think I do want it in my blood though I may have a preferred level – careful what you write here molly a syou are straying in to medical advice that is wrong/poor
    Cannot comment on your diet advice tbh

    gonefishin
    Free Member

    my missus keeps going on about the dangers of fructose (very low GI and in lots of energy nutrition products).

    Fructose is an isomer of Glucose (same chemical formula, different structure) and found naturally in fruits (who’d have guessed that one) as well as vegetables. As with most things moderation is likely the key.

    geetee1972
    Free Member

    Beware this – insulin inhibits ‘fat burning’, so if you want to be burning fat ie on a bike ride, or you want to train your fat burning metabolism, then you don’t want insulin in your blood.

    Interesting article in the new magazine ‘Cyclist’ that advocated ‘fatigue training’, i.e. training on empty, say first thing in the morning maybe with just some caffeine to help stimulate fat burning. The idea is that you stimulate mitochondrial efficiency.

    loum
    Free Member

    May be of interest to the OP:

    HOME

    nickc
    Full Member

    Unsurprisingly there’s studies that go either way, moderate cardio on an empty stomach has been shown to increase fat burning during exersize, but then reduce the overall fat burn measured over 24 hours against a control group who ate a small amount of glucose and did the same moderate cardio. There was an Italian one I read that concluded that if you do moderate endurance exersize to loose body fat, then a light meal before exersize will give better results than fasting before

    Like all these things, find what works for you

    mrmoofo
    Full Member

    I am pre diabetic – and trying to make sure it doesn’t go that way. My doctor told me to completely avoid grapes/ raisins etc because of the amount of fructose in them.
    Ironic that so many “healthy” products are now sweetened by fruit/grape juice … which is mainly fructose.
    However I’ll concentrate on shifting about 20 kilos …

    loum
    Free Member

    nickc, you’re talking about exercise to lose fat rather than diet to lose fat.

    Remember, there are also studies which indicate that physical exercise increases appetite to a degree that makes it an inefficient tool in weight loss.

    nickc
    Full Member

    Loum, absolutely! there’s a balance to be struck in all these things.

    There’s probably no hard fixed rule that can be applied to everyone ( as many arguments on here will testify to)

    loum
    Free Member

    True.
    There’s also some pretty good stories on here from people who’ve had success in losing weight/fat through loads of different methods.
    There’s more than one way to skin a cat.

    surroundedbyhills
    Free Member

    My old 70’s Lancia had Twin Weber Carbs, I kept them clean. On the eother hand my mate hand an old MG with Twin SU carbs that he could never quite balance, does this add to the debate?

    teamhurtmore
    Free Member

    Geetee, trying that at the moment now that it’s light in the mornings. Early start and 2 hour ride pre breakfast. Came back today and didn’t even feel like anything to eat. Glass of skimmed milk and I was full.

    nickc
    Full Member

    SBH, I had a twin SU set up on a spitfire that I could happily fiddle with all day…and still the bastard things would never be “just so”

    nwallace
    Free Member

    surroundedbyhills – Said:
    My old 70’s Lancia had Twin Weber Carbs, I kept them clean. On the eother hand my mate hand an old MG with Twin SU carbs that he could never quite balance, does this add to the debate?

    More importantly, which one died first?

    Got the Twin Webber Manifold for my SAAB 99, not got the Twin 40s to sit on it yet.
    MPG with the stock Zenith 750CD is bad enough…

    michaelbowden
    Full Member

    SBH, I had a twin SU set up on a spitfire that I could happily fiddle with all day…and still the bastard things would never be “just so”

    Trouble with SU’s is normally needle or needle jet wear which makes ballancing and tuning them a pain in the ‘arris. Oh that and having the wrong viscosity oil in the damper.

    michaelbowden
    Full Member

    More importantly, which one died first?

    Got the Twin Webber Manifold for my SAAB 99, not got the Twin 40s to sit on it yet.
    MPG with the stock Zenith 750CD is bad enough…

    Not really worried by the MPG though are you! Is that a H engined 99 or a late model B20?

    michaelbowden
    Full Member

    Double post!

    mikewsmith
    Free Member

    eat less do more, forget the BS

    as Jasper Carrot once said the hole at the top is bigger than the one at the other end – go figure 🙂

    stever
    Free Member

    I’ve a feeling the fasted training thing is not relevant to most people – I regularly run or bike before breakfast but don’t often do more 60-90 mins …and I’ll be using yesterday’s glycogen stores for that. It’s not as if they magically disappear overnight. Unless you have particularly vivid dreams I guess…

    I’ve also heard some stuff about delaying eating on longer endurance stuff (2h+) as a way to encourage the fat burning mechanism to kick in earlier. Reference please?

    molgrips
    Free Member

    and I’ll be using yesterday’s glycogen stores for that. It’s not as if they magically disappear overnight

    It’s not about training with low glycogen, it’s about training with low insulin levels in your blood.

    You definitely want the glycogen stores from last night.

    eat less do more, forget the BS

    It’s not BS, it’s how your body actually works. Generally it’s better to know how stuff works if you want to make it work in a particular way.

    Of course many people manage without knowing this stuff, but plenty don’t.

    mikewsmith
    Free Member

    It’s not BS, it’s how your body actually works. Generally it’s better to know how stuff works if you want to make it work in a particular way.

    Of course many people manage without knowing this stuff, but plenty don’t.

    True but you can over complicate things. Most people could benefit from a reduction of the in vs an increase of the out rather than which slice of bread to eat and how many minutes into exercise before eating it. The answer is not to eat the cake, drink the beer or sit down all day.

    molgrips
    Free Member

    True but you can over complicate things

    The OP asked a question about physiology, so that’s what this thread is about.

    If you want simple rules, the iDave diet is very very simple indeed. Can hardly be less complicated.

    The answer is not to eat the cake, drink the beer or sit down all day.

    That does not get everyone the results they want.

    The biggest problem in this whole issue is skinny people using their own experiences to extrapolate onto others, and assuming they must therefore be lazy greedy slobs in denial.

    stever
    Free Member

    I note even the mighty wikipedia lacks a source for this: through training, the body can be conditioned to burn fat earlier, faster, and more efficiently[citation needed], sparing carbohydrate use from all sources.

    phil40
    Free Member

    There does seem to be a strong correlation between diet topics and length of thread, although to see some truly world class s**t storms have a look at some of the tritalk threads!

    I am trying to lose weight at the moment and seem to be having some success with eating less and training more, however with a sample size of one and with the subject being aware of the terms of the study, I think my results may show some bias 😀

    However I am not an expert on diet and nutrition, (no ifs/but etc) just a simple admission to the internet that there is one person in the world who is not an expert 😀

    molgrips
    Free Member

    Yep, and to train fat burning you want to do exercise that burns fat. And insulin interferes with that.. hence the 45 minute thing.

    A lot depends on where you start from. If you’re a sedentary biffer who eats cake all day long, then of course eating less and moving more will work.

    However, I’ve been very active my whole life and never been unfit. I used to eat a lot of carbs when I was younger, and I was pretty skinny then. I’m not fat, I’m just heavier than I’d like to be for racing purposes.

    I think most people with my body type are quite a bit fatter than me.

    mikewsmith
    Free Member

    Absolutely true Molgrips, I’ve read the I(takeyourmoney&runoff)dave diet and seen others which also do the exclude, swap, ignore, eliminate, cave men didn’t eat this versions, I see some of it but not other bits. Having gone to the balanced but controlled intake of food vs increasing output over the intake then weight loss occurred, replicated across a large sample population.

    Sorry if I can’t join the Good Vs Bad carbs debate. Sometimes it’s not actually as important as the rest of the package. In other ways weight is a piss poor measure of progress and should be replaced with body fat/muscle %. Apologies for not hitting the diet fad band wagon and providing an alternate view, the OP had hinted at his BS detector going off. Mine did reading a heap of the stuff out there.

    molgrips
    Free Member

    As someone with a scientific background, I am not in the least bit interested in fads. I want to know how my body actualy works, so I can figure out what’s going on.

    I treat my car the same way. However that’s not considered risible at all…

    mikewsmith
    Free Member

    Scientific background here too 🙂 missus is in charge of the diets and she’s a Vet with a good background in nutrition 🙂

    Anyway nice beers drunk off to bed, ride tomorrow will sort it all out

    FunkyDunc
    Free Member

    Lifes so complicated these days…

    I eat what I want when I want :mrgreen:

    stever
    Free Member

    Yep, and to train fat burning you want to do exercise that burns fat. And insulin interferes with that.. hence the 45 minute thing.

    Yes, but what 45 min thing? I’m still looking for a proper reference for this. And does that refer to racing or training? I don’t mind training my fat burning at the expense of performance in training. Racing, I want to cover the ground as quickly as possible.

    molgrips
    Free Member

    Do you need a reference? Try it!

    The wiki article on insulin says that it inhibits lipolysis. So it stands to reason that without it floating around your blood you’re going to burn more fat. So don’t eat for several hours before a ride and not for the first 45 mins.

    In my experience, the first 45 mins is a little tougher than you’d expect, sometimes I am gasping for a gel at that point – but an hour or two into the ride I am usually on great form and feeling really strong.

    And does that refer to racing or training?

    Well, my take would be for short races take simple carbs before and right away, it’ll make you feel really fast after riding without. But if you are doing a long sportive or something several hours long, then you still want to be burning as much fat as possible then.

    You can’t eat enough carbs to compensate for the stuff you use at full chat, so you will always be depleting your carb stores. If you go for carbs, you’ll have enough stores plus what you drink to power you for a 90 min XC race, but probably not for a 6 hour enduro.

    That’s just my ideas on the subject though.

    stever
    Free Member

    Do you need a reference? Try it!

    Errm, no thanks, I’m not about to sacrifice a race on something that looks like hot air. I’ve got more than enough experience of 20 mile training runs without proper nutrition. It’s hard and unpleasant. I’ve asked in a couple of places about this and nobody has come back with more than an opinion. We’ve all got opinions.

    the first 45 mins is a little tougher than you’d expect, sometimes I am gasping for a gel at that point

    Errm again.

    for short races take simple carbs before and right away,

    Maybe you’re not racing hard enough if you can eat before and immediately in short races 🙂

    molgrips
    Free Member

    Errm, no thanks, I’m not about to sacrifice a race on something that looks like hot air.

    I meant for some training rides.

    Maybe you’re not racing hard enough if you can eat before and immediately in short races

    I believe gels or energy drink in bottles are popular with racers of all abilities. If you’re spoiling for a big argument you won’t get one from me on this thread btw 🙂

    Why do you think this idea is hot air anyway?

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