He did come in for some stick - wasn't it Operation Market Garden that went badly wrong because of his decisions?
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The film Valkyrie - how close to the truth?
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Posted 2 years ago #
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What stood out to me was the fanaticism of the SS
Indeed. My great-uncle (a Captain in the Somerset Light Infantry, part of the 43rd Wessex Division) was killed during bitter fighting with SS troops near Caen. He was 33, and his wife was pregnant with their only son. Although a regular himself, many of the men he served with were TA - west country farm lads facing battle-hardened Panzer Corps, over terrain reminiscent of an earlier war.
Infantry advance on Hill 112.
43rd Wessex memorial.
Posted 2 years ago # -
I think in real life they all spoke german, and not english/American like in the movie.
Posted 2 years ago # -
It also picks out Monty as a really quite poor military commander
Yes. That too.
He was apparently quite inspiring when addressing the troops, as a family friend told me having seen him in North Africa.
Posted 2 years ago # -
west country farm lads facing battle-hardened Panzer Corps, over terrain reminiscent of an earlier war.
Yes. When the family friend mentioned above (a fairly tough paratrooper, possibly on his 40th birthday) arrived on the beach at Normandy and saw Caen in flames in the distance he said that he and the other chaps expected to die there. He survived until his mid-90s.
Posted 2 years ago # -
Caen in flames in the distance he said that he and the other chaps expected to die there
My great-uncle's last conversation with his cousin (a "recce" scout, but then serving with Monty's command) was to say that he did not expect to survive the fighting. Ground was being taken and re-taken, at huge cost to both sides.
He never made it back to his beloved Quantocks - and on a fine day, up on the top, it often gives me pause for thought.
Posted 2 years ago # -
Posted 2 years ago #
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He never made it back to his beloved Quantocks - and on a fine day, up on the top, it often gives me pause for thought.
I can imagine.
As another family friend -also a paratrooper, but a medic- said when I asked him what he thought when he was told that he was going to be dropped into Normandy ahead of D-Day,
"We had to do it, there was no choice".He was dropped into the marsh next to the Rhine in the dark the following year.
Both of these chaps were very modest, ordinary but fit, adventurous types.
(edit: They'd never have described themselves as chaps, as they were working-class scousers
None of my pretientious ways)If I'd been alive then I'd no doubt have been there too, as many of our friends/family all seemed to go to North Africa and then to Normandy.
Posted 2 years ago # -
very modest, ordinary
"Every Man an Emperor" - Montgomery.
Posted 2 years ago # -
cranberry - Member
Active enough for you Hora?
Err nowhere near. How many conscientious objectors were there in the UK? How many people in the whole of Germany compared to resistance fighters in Germany?!
Posted 2 years ago # -
"Must be some truth in the tale as Hilter was treated for shrapnel wounds to his legs, unfortunately they knew how to build table legs in those days !! Bet he still Sh@t himself though."
They replaced his legs with table legs?! - that's amazing!
Posted 2 years ago # -
nickc - Member
they had a noble military tradition to upholdHmmmm, massive slaughter, grief, trauma, horrific injuries, the utter destruction of cities and countries doesn't appear in my dictionary under the word; Noble
Goodness, we in Britain have a hard time being objective 60 years after the fact.
The atrocities committed by all the European powers with imperial pretensions up to and including the 20th century are just that: atrocities. Nazism aside, the German military was hardly any more guilty of the accusations you are making than France or Britain in their own ways. The causes of WW1 are complex, and rooted in colonialism and industrialisation. It is not enough to say 'it was the Germans that started it'. As for WW2, the evils of Nazism have made it too easy to say that it was all just a matter (once again) of German militarism. In fact, one could argue that WW2 is a direct result of WW1, and that the allies at Versailles are indirectly responsible for starting it.
But then, this isn't the sort of exploration of theories that makes it into the curriculum that we're supposed to keep our children in school for, so I suppose we can't expect Britain to ever grow up and deal with the history of Germany and the wars like big people.
Posted 2 years ago # -
Lets not forget the treatment dished out to the German resistance during the occupation, arrested on suspected charges of sabotage,military court,head cut off! repeat 4000 times in 3 years
Posted 2 years ago # -
But then, this isn't the sort of exploration of theories that makes it into the curriculum that we're supposed to keep our children in school for, so I suppose we can't expect Britain to ever grow up and deal with the history of Germany and the wars like big people.
I was with you until this. When I was at school some 15 years ago, this history and exploration of theories was precisely what were taught, and that the ill judged response to Germany at the end of WWI set the ball rolling for WWII. Prior to our lessons on WWII we were taught that the arms race between the colonial powers of Britain and Germany was also a major factor, maybe the main factor, in triggering WW1 as both countries clamoured to get the allied support of other continental nations and thus led on to the domino effect following Franz-Ferdinand's assasination and the resultant war.
But then maybe I just had a good teacher.
Posted 2 years ago # -
The causes of WW1 are complex
Wasn't it 'Take Me Out' by Franz Ferdinand that started WW1? Or something like that.
Posted 2 years ago # -
We still teach that pook.
Posted 2 years ago # -
it was also featured a bit in Red Dwarf
Banana and crisp sandwiches?
the ill judged response to Germany at the end of WWI set the ball rolling for WWII
That's a bit like saying it's your fault your bikes got nicked because you left the garage door unlocked...
Posted 2 years ago # -
Read Des Teufels General or see the play for a contemporary view of the reticence felt by some Germans at war ( and read up on the histrical background to the work).
Posted 2 years ago # -
That's a bit like saying it's your fault your bikes got nicked because you left the garage door unlocked...
well not really
Posted 2 years ago # -
he only had one ball to worry about
Is the other in the Albert Hall?
Don't be stupid.
It's on the kitchen wall.
You went to a different school to me obviously.
Posted 2 years ago # -
You went to a different school to me obviously.
Well, I think it was Cub Scouts where I learnt that gem actually. We must have been in different packs.
Posted 2 years ago # -
Pook - Member
But then, this isn't the sort of exploration of theories that makes it into the curriculum that we're supposed to keep our children in school for, so I suppose we can't expect Britain to ever grow up and deal with the history of Germany and the wars like big people.
I was with you until this. When I was at school some 15 years ago, this history and exploration of theories was precisely what were taught, and that the ill judged response to Germany at the end of WWI set the ball rolling for WWII. Prior to our lessons on WWII we were taught that the arms race between the colonial powers of Britain and Germany was also a major factor, maybe the main factor, in triggering WW1 as both countries clamoured to get the allied support of other continental nations and thus led on to the domino effect following Franz-Ferdinand's assasination and the resultant war.
But then maybe I just had a good teacher.
At my school they taught the industrial revolution, improving workers rights, the Suffragettes etc etc but then again ...arguably.Labours best Prime Minister went to my school..
Posted 2 years ago # -
obviously
I'm no historian though. It's wehereabouts is something i'm not certain of, and the Albert hall is a lot more prestigious than our kitchen, so you may have been right all of these years!
Posted 2 years ago # -
Noteeth - my father fought with the 1/6 Battalion of Duke of Wellingtons also near Caen, they were essentially wiped out in action against the 12th SS Panzer Division and were disbanded. My father was one of the few officers to survive, he was transferred to 1/7 Battalion and was later involved in the liberation of Arnhem. He didn't talk about it and few of us (and certainly not me) have any understanding of what they went through.
Posted 2 years ago # -
Strangely I like such war films as Das Boot, Cross of Iron and Stalingrad- slightly depressing but then they should bloody be.
Posted 2 years ago # -
"I'm no historian though. It's wehereabouts is something i'm not certain of, and the Albert hall is a lot more prestigious than our kitchen, so you may have been right all of these years!"
Maybe that was Himmler's, if I remember history lessons from school correctly he had something similiar.
Posted 2 years ago # -
He didn't talk about it and few of us (and certainly not me) have any understanding of what they went through.
It must have been horrendous. Not surprising that many of that generation were (and are) reluctant to talk about what happened.
Posted 2 years ago # -
From reading various books (Beevor etc) I gained the sense that someone could become a legend (seemingly invincible) and then be wiped out. Only to be repeated and similarly forgotten as the people who witnessed also perished. Willi Heinrich talked about a 700% turnover in his own regiment.
Posted 2 years ago #
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