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Just watched the film and quite enjoyed it (once I got over 'Ze Germans' with English accents). I have quite an active interest in the two World Wars and have read quite a few books about them, but they generally are front-line diaries etc. I am also nearly at the end of Stalingrad by Antony Beevor which I want to finish before starting Berlin (which may answer some of my questions).
But - can anyone tell me if what happened in the film had any bearing on reality and whether they really did nearly overthrow the regime?
they did manage to set a bomb off, hitler was hurt and i think a few generals were killed. not sure if they show it in the film but apparently hitler was only saved due to the placement of the bomb- in relation to him it was behind one of the thick wooden legs of the table, hence he didn't get the full effect of the blast.
not sure if they show it in the film but apparently hitler was only saved due to the placement of the bomb-
They explain it in the film that the meeting was meant to be in a closed room in the Wolf's Liar Bunker, but it was moved to above ground with open windows due to the hot weather so the energy of the blast was dissipated through the windows. They do also show the bag being moved but it isn't clear that was meant to have an effect on the blast.
Must be some truth in the tale as Hilter was treated for shrapnel wounds to his legs, unfortunately they knew how to build table legs in those days !! Bet he still Sh@t himself though.
I thought they made a meal of the end, dragged it all out for dramatic effect as you would expect. Apart from that, as per above, they got the details of the plan right as far as I know.
dragged it all out for dramatic effect as you would expect.
Well yeah - that was why I was wondering how close they came to success. A better film than I expected overall.
Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg didn't sgree with the way Hitler was running the war. (it was starting to look like they may loose) I think had they suceeded they would have carried on with the war. I don't think this come out well in the film and is missed a bit to make them a bit more heroic / appealing to US watchers
+1 Tiger
The conspiritors were perfectly happy to charge around Europe and N.Africa on tanks as long as the war was going well, proper Nazi's some of them.
This book explains in detail the alternative germany that had been tightly plotted by the generals and it is well worth a read.
http://www.amazon.ca/If-Chance-Military-Turning-Changed/dp/0330492454
Pop fact- the table shielded the blast which was then directed out the windows but it was still benough to blow the Furer's trousers off and out the window 😆
Plus, of course, he only had one bollock to worry about, apparently...
Is the other in the Albert Hall?
(I always wondered how that song came about) 🙂
According to William Shirer in his magesterial 'Rise and Fall of the Third Reich', the case that contained the bomb was moved from the top of the table to underneath, which ended up shielding the Fuhrer.
On a separate note...
To the credit of many of the generals and field marshals, of course some may have wanted to continue with the war. Remember that there were military and political reasons for its origins apart from the Nazi purpose. And besides, they had a noble military tradition to uphold. We might not appreciate militar[i]ism[/i], but many would have been appalled to see their country disgraced militarily.
I watched a documentary on this a few years ago as mentioned above the placement of the bomb and iirc the table was a big thick heavy oak table that took a lot of the blast.
[i]they had a noble military tradition to uphold[/i]
Hmmmm, massive slaughter, grief, trauma, horrific injuries, the utter destruction of cities and countries doesn't appear in my dictionary under the word; Noble
I must admit. None of them can claim to be noble. As stated in the Fall of Berlin. The Russians noted that there was no German Resistance to national socialism.
I havent seen the film but I hope it doesn't imply that the conspirators found out about the horrors of what the German military were doing and decided to end it?
The nearest to a national 'hero' should be Rudolph Hess surely? and thats tenuous to say the least.
Saying this- there should be distinction between 'hero and bravery'. On the front line there were many brave men on the German side.
The Prussians wanted rid of the "Bohemian Corporal" so they could allow the military elite to run the country again.The bomb was deflected by the table,thought the room was still some mess!
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Hitler had the perceived plotters hung by their tiptoes on piano wire,all filmed for his viewing
It's got Tom Cruise in it so I reckon it would be safe to say that the fact Germany is at war with the world is correct but the rest of it is done for effect and to make the film 'interesting'...my wife watched it and thought it was good but I can't stomach Cruise so didn't watch it.
the utter destruction of cities
I think 'Bomber' Harris on 'our side' can claim the title for mass destruction of entire (non-campaign specific) cities.
🙁
it was also featured a bit in Red Dwarf. thus must be true.
Beevor's books should be compulsory reading:
"Stalingrad" Is an epic account of a truly horrendous battle.
"Berlin" is quite unpleasant, due to the accounts of atrocity after atrocity carried out by both the Germans and the Red Army in revenge. Heavy going. If anything is going to persuade you that war is futile, this is it.
"D-day" is Fascinating. What stood out to me was the fanaticism of the SS. It sounds trite, but so much destruction could have been avoided if they'd just given up earlier.
[url= http://www.amazon.co.uk/Jocks-Peter-White/dp/0750930578 ]This is, for me, the best account of the war I have read...[/url]
The Russians noted that there was no German Resistance to national socialism.
Just for the record...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Rose
I think 'Bomber' Harris on 'our side' can claim the title for mass destruction of entire (non-campaign specific) cities.
You must be referring to Dresden - still one of the most controversial Allied acts of WWII
Mr Woppit - MemberThe Russians noted that there was no German Resistance to national socialism.
Just for the record...
Exactly. **** all use.
You must be referring to Dresden - still one of the most controversial Allied acts of WWII
Yes 🙁 He did like his carpet bombing unfortunately.
Pook - not just Dresden. as the saying goes "we might have been on the side of the angels, but we were prepared to use the tools of the devil to win".
Hora - there was resistance to the Nazi Party in Germany both within the military and amongst civilians. If you wish to educate yourself I would suggest you read Mr Whoppit's link or watch [url= http://www.play.com/DVD/DVD/4-/880755/Sophie-Scholl-The-Final-Days/Product.html ]Sophie Scoll - The Final Days[/url]
For the Russians to complain of the lack of resistance in Germany given parallels with their totalitarian state might seem a touch hypocritical.
cranberry. It was passive resistance.
If you educate yourself on the days before Hitler took power you will see there was a active cross section of parties (including communist/leftwing parties).
The key word is before.
For all the fault of the Russians. If it wasnt for their involvement we would all be living under a very strange and cruel world now.
"D-day" is Fascinating. What stood out to me was the fanaticism of the SS. It sounds trite, but so much destruction could have been avoided if they'd just given up earlier.
It also picks out Monty as a really quite poor military commander who could not make a decision to save his life mainly due to his unwillingness to lose face.
[i]If it wasnt for their involvement we would all be living under a very strange and cruel world now. [/i]
Oh christ. Another Horaism.
AndyP. Do you beg to differ? Thought not.
A while ago I found a few Ukrainian film videos on youtube of german remains found in marsh/wetlands. Alot of material in almost complete condition 😯
yes, I do beg to differ.
Do you have much of a brain? thought not...
Explain, how you differ
Because it's simple logic that you cannot apply what happened in some countries 60+ years ago and assume that nothing would have changed since had one thing been a bit different.
simples. (squeak).
Its simplifying: The Russians pinned down and destroyed division after division. Just at the battle for Seelow Heights there are estimates of over 100,000 German dead and they are still finding bones now.
I remember one line(from Stalingrad?) that the Russians fired multiple airburst shells into the trees over the fleeing Germans.
If Hitler had never broken his pact with Stalin he would have had a great deal more manpower etc. Mind you he was crackers for not invading Britain.
It also picks out Monty as a really quite poor military commander
Interesting. I've read criticism of him elsewhere (in a fiction book) that mentioned his unwillingness to use the data from Bletchley Park.
He did come in for some stick - wasn't it Operation Market Garden that went badly wrong because of his decisions?
[i]What stood out to me was the fanaticism of the SS[/i]
Indeed. My great-uncle (a Captain in the Somerset Light Infantry, part of the 43rd Wessex Division) was killed during [url= http://www.43wessexassociation.com/history/hill_112.html ]bitter[/url] fighting with SS troops near Caen. He was 33, and his wife was pregnant with their only son. Although a regular himself, many of the men he served with were TA - west country farm lads facing battle-hardened Panzer Corps, over terrain reminiscent of an earlier war.
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Infantry advance on Hill 112.
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43rd Wessex memorial.
I think in real life they all spoke german, and not english/American like in the movie.
It also picks out Monty as a really quite poor military commander
Yes. That too.
He was apparently quite inspiring when addressing the troops, as a family friend told me having seen him in North Africa.
west country farm lads facing battle-hardened Panzer Corps, over terrain reminiscent of an earlier war.
Yes. When the family friend mentioned above (a fairly tough paratrooper, possibly on his 40th birthday) arrived on the beach at Normandy and saw Caen in flames in the distance he said that he and the other chaps expected to die there. He survived until his mid-90s.
[i]Caen in flames in the distance he said that he and the other chaps expected to die there[/i]
My great-uncle's last conversation with his cousin (a "recce" scout, but then serving with Monty's command) was to say that he did not expect to survive the fighting. Ground was being taken and re-taken, at huge cost to both sides.
He never made it back to his beloved Quantocks - and on a fine day, up on the top, it often gives me pause for thought.
[url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georg_Elser ]Active enough for you Hora?[/url]
He never made it back to his beloved Quantocks - and on a fine day, up on the top, it often gives me pause for thought.
I can imagine.
As another family friend -also a paratrooper, but a medic- said when I asked him what he thought when he was told that he was going to be dropped into Normandy ahead of D-Day,
"We had to do it, there was no choice".
He was dropped into the marsh next to the Rhine in the dark the following year.
Both of these chaps were very modest, ordinary but fit, adventurous types.
(edit: They'd never have described themselves as chaps, as they were working-class scousers 😉 None of my pretientious ways)
If I'd been alive then I'd no doubt have been there too, as many of our friends/family all seemed to go to North Africa and then to Normandy.
[i]very modest, ordinary[/i]
"Every Man an Emperor" - Montgomery.
cranberry - MemberActive enough for you Hora?
Err nowhere near. How many conscientious objectors were there in the UK? How many people in the whole of Germany compared to resistance fighters in Germany?!
"Must be some truth in the tale as Hilter was treated for shrapnel wounds to his legs, unfortunately they knew how to build table legs in those days !! Bet he still Sh@t himself though."
They replaced his legs with table legs?! - that's amazing!
nickc - Member
they had a noble military tradition to upholdHmmmm, massive slaughter, grief, trauma, horrific injuries, the utter destruction of cities and countries doesn't appear in my dictionary under the word; Noble
Goodness, we in Britain have a hard time being objective 60 years after the fact.
The atrocities committed by [i][b]all[/b] the European powers with imperial pretensions[/i] up to and including the 20th century are just that: atrocities. Nazism aside, the German [i]military[/i] was hardly any more guilty of the accusations you are making than France or Britain in their own ways. The causes of WW1 are complex, and rooted in colonialism and industrialisation. It is not enough to say 'it was the Germans that started it'. As for WW2, the evils of Nazism have made it too easy to say that it was all just a matter (once again) of German militarism. In fact, one could argue that WW2 is a direct result of WW1, and that the allies at Versailles are indirectly responsible for starting it.
But then, this isn't the sort of exploration of theories that makes it into the curriculum that we're supposed to keep our children in school for, so I suppose we can't expect Britain to ever grow up and deal with the history of Germany and the wars like big people. 🙄
Lets not forget the treatment dished out to the German resistance during the occupation, arrested on suspected charges of sabotage,military court,head cut off! repeat 4000 times in 3 years
But then, this isn't the sort of exploration of theories that makes it into the curriculum that we're supposed to keep our children in school for, so I suppose we can't expect Britain to ever grow up and deal with the history of Germany and the wars like big people.
I was with you until this. When I was at school some 15 years ago, this history and exploration of theories was precisely what were taught, and that the ill judged response to Germany at the end of WWI set the ball rolling for WWII. Prior to our lessons on WWII we were taught that the arms race between the colonial powers of Britain and Germany was also a major factor, maybe the main factor, in triggering WW1 as both countries clamoured to get the allied support of other continental nations and thus led on to the domino effect following Franz-Ferdinand's assasination and the resultant war.
But then maybe I just had a good teacher.
The causes of WW1 are complex
Wasn't it 'Take Me Out' by Franz Ferdinand that started WW1? Or something like that.
We still teach that pook.
it was also featured a bit in Red Dwarf
Banana and crisp sandwiches?
the ill judged response to Germany at the end of WWI set the ball rolling for WWII
That's a bit like saying it's your fault your bikes got nicked because you left the garage door unlocked...
Read Des Teufels General or see the play for a contemporary view of the reticence felt by some Germans at war ( and read up on the histrical background to the work).
That's a bit like saying it's your fault your bikes got nicked because you left the garage door unlocked...
well not really
he only had one ball to worry about
Is the other in the Albert Hall?
Don't be stupid.
It's on the kitchen wall.
You went to a different school to me obviously.
You went to a different school to me obviously.
Well, I think it was Cub Scouts where I learnt that gem actually. We must have been in different packs. 🙂
Pook - MemberBut then, this isn't the sort of exploration of theories that makes it into the curriculum that we're supposed to keep our children in school for, so I suppose we can't expect Britain to ever grow up and deal with the history of Germany and the wars like big people.
I was with you until this. When I was at school some 15 years ago, this history and exploration of theories was precisely what were taught, and that the ill judged response to Germany at the end of WWI set the ball rolling for WWII. Prior to our lessons on WWII we were taught that the arms race between the colonial powers of Britain and Germany was also a major factor, maybe the main factor, in triggering WW1 as both countries clamoured to get the allied support of other continental nations and thus led on to the domino effect following Franz-Ferdinand's assasination and the resultant war.
But then maybe I just had a good teacher.
At my school they taught the industrial revolution, improving workers rights, the Suffragettes etc etc but then again ...arguably.Labours best Prime Minister went to my school..
😀
obviously 😆
I'm no historian though. It's wehereabouts is something i'm not certain of, and the Albert hall is a lot more prestigious than our kitchen, so you may have been right all of these years!
Noteeth - my father fought with the 1/6 Battalion of Duke of Wellingtons also near Caen, they were essentially wiped out in action against the 12th SS Panzer Division and were disbanded. My father was one of the few officers to survive, he was transferred to 1/7 Battalion and was later involved in the liberation of Arnhem. He didn't talk about it and few of us (and certainly not me) have any understanding of what they went through.
Strangely I like such war films as Das Boot, Cross of Iron and Stalingrad- slightly depressing but then they should bloody be.
"I'm no historian though. It's wehereabouts is something i'm not certain of, and the Albert hall is a lot more prestigious than our kitchen, so you may have been right all of these years!"
Maybe that was Himmler's, if I remember history lessons from school correctly he had something similiar.
[i]He didn't talk about it and few of us (and certainly not me) have any understanding of what they went through.[/i]
It must have been horrendous. Not surprising that many of that generation were (and are) reluctant to talk about what happened.
From reading various books (Beevor etc) I gained the sense that someone could become a legend (seemingly invincible) and then be wiped out. Only to be repeated and similarly forgotten as the people who witnessed also perished. Willi Heinrich talked about a 700% turnover in his own regiment.