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1. higgo - Member

   I don't think you can understand SAF without the context of Liverpool's previous success.

   It could be argued that without Shankly, Paisley etc there would have been no need for SAF to "come down here to knock those f***ing scousers off their perch"

   Why do you think he's not retired yet? In my view, he won't go willingly until we've matched them in Europe and are one ahead domestically. What's interesting will be if we stop winning with him at the helm. I don't think he'll go himself, how will he be pushed?

   Higs (MUFC)

   Posted 3 years ago #
2. trailmonkey - Member

   but trying to settle the argument on the basis of trophys won isn't helpful

   In terms of achievement, there is no other yardstick. If you were to develop your argument further, you could say that you couldn't compare the two as Ferguson took Utd to levels that Shankly never could, European, World Club Cup etc. As I said previously, Fergie against Paisley is a tough one to call. Fergie against Shankly, is a non starter.

   If you're going to claim the whole of Liverpool's post Shankly success as being down to Shankly and the boot-room ethos, I think you're doing Paisley a great disservice.

   Posted 3 years ago #
3. RudeBoy - Blocked

   
   

   Posted 3 years ago #
4. Mark - Resident Grumpy

   Rudeboy..... You are doing it again.. Read your flippin' posts before you hit send and try to imagine how they will be received.. I'm getting tired of trying to help you NOT get banned!

   Posted 3 years ago #
5. ransos - Member

   "In terms of achievement, there is no other yardstick."

   Taking a hitherto small club and turning them into champions is clearly a bigger achievement than repeating previous success. Or are you arguing that Mackay's achievement at Derby was as big as Clough's?

   That's why I don't think you can decisively argue that SAF is a better manager than Shankly.

   Posted 3 years ago #
6. trailmonkey - Member

   And likewise, as a Man U fan, you're obviously going to prefer Fergie.

   I'm not a Man Utd fan. I don't particularly like Ferguson either. My analysis is based purely on the achievements of the two managers. Your's seems to be based on partisan loyalty. As such, let me offer some of my own

   Ron Saunders took Aston Villa from the second division to :-

   Second Division runners up 1975
   League Cup winners 1975,1977
   First Division Championship 1981

   He left the club 2 months before winning the
   European Cup 1982,

   No one, not even Tony Barton has any doubt that the glory was Saunders'.

   Anyone with a true understanding of English football history would know all of this and would be able to put it into the context of the achievements of Shankly, Clough et al. I think it highlights quite vividly that, part of what makes some managers great is the myth that they create. Ron Saunders as one of the greatest managers of all time ? I bet most of the football fans of today, have no idea who he was. Why ? On the basis of achievements ? No. On the basis that he didn't create the myth of personality that Shankly and Clough did.

   But don't get yer knickers in a twist, eh?

   I would suggest that if you don't want people to be offended, then don't offend them.

   Posted 3 years ago #
7. G - Member

   There is no comparision between Fergie and those managers that came prior to the Premier league. Whilst there is no doubt that he is a great manager, Shankley, et al managed their achievements at a time when the self serving creators of the Premier LEague had yet to work their nasty spell, and the revenue from the game was fairly spread to create competition. Basically a high proportion of Fergies success is down to the machinations behind the scenes by the money boys and is diminished greatly as a result.

   Posted 3 years ago #
8. jj55 - Member

   Respect the ref? Both Fergies & Ferdinands behaviour was deplorable, who'd be a ref?

   Posted 3 years ago #
9. johnhoo - Member

   surprised nobody's mentioned The Don yet ah that's right, we're not supposed to mention "Dirty" Leeds, are we?

   anyway. As much as I dislike his public persona, the red-nosed one has indeed got a very good track record. I can't think of anybody with a better one, in the English game anyway.

   He can be thankful he was given almost 10 years to win his first trophy with MUFC; he wouldn't be given that long today.

   Posted 3 years ago #
10. mastiles_fanylion - Member

    Crikey - you lot moan more than he does!

    I actually like him as a manager and totally respect his record, but I do think that he could show a little respect and admit that it was a good close/tight game that could have gone either way and on this occasion it didn't go his way.

    He cannot possibly be beaming about being in the latter stages of all competitions then moan that a pitch might tire his super-fit players out and make them unfit for the next big game.

    He should have fielded his best team, tried to put the game beyong the Toffees then sub the important players. He should not have fielded what was, by anyone's opinion, a weekened team then complain afterwards.

    And the peno - it was no more or less a peno than the one at the other end when Rafael leant into Cahill (or whoever it was).

    Posted 3 years ago #
11. TheLittlestHobo - Member

    Brian Clough was the greatest British manager for me. He took TWO average english teams to the top of the tree. He had personality and did things the right way (Including giving the fan a right hander :-).

    In terms of success for all that Mr Ferguson is prob the most successfull manager of all time (I dont want to start googling stats) his achievements always fall into the same catagory as people who manage Barcelona, Real Madrid, Bayern Munich etc. Its expected. Fergusons great achievement is that he has done it for so long which is a hell of an achievement. Everyone knows the teams above have won loads of cups, but not many know all the great managers they have had because the vast majority of the winning is down to the clubs existing stature, not their managers. Jose Morinho won great things at chelsea but it is tainted by the money imo. His achievements at Porto were greater.

    Posted 3 years ago #
12. Garry_Lager - Member

    Agreed Hobo - no one can match the achievements of Clough. Sad to say, no one will ever match him in the future, given the way the game has evolved. To take two provincial teams, both in the second division, and lead them to win the first division title, then the European cup (twice) is unparalleled. He might also have won the European cup with Derby, but was allegedly cheated out of it by Juventus in the semi-finals.

    Ferguson has a much broader record of achievement of course, and did things the hard way himself with Aberdeen. Clough also stayed on way too long and became a parody of himself at Forest, but he still stands alone IMO.

    Posted 3 years ago #
13. trailmonkey - Member

    In terms of success for all that Mr Ferguson is prob the most successfull manager of all time (I dont want to start googling stats) his achievements always fall into the same catagory as people who manage Barcelona, Real Madrid, Bayern Munich etc

    I don't think that this is a fair argument. When Fergie took over at Man Utd, they hadn't won the league since the sixties, had only won one European Cup, again in the sixties and had a series of high profile but largely unsuccesful managers, all of whom could get nowhere near making the club the equal of Madrid, Barcelona, or even the Liverpool of the day. I think it's fair to say that the club that Ferguson took charge of was more equivalent to the Aston Villa or Spurs of today.

    As for the argument that nothing is comparable because of the money involved in today's game, I'd argue that the money is the same for everyone. It doesn't gaurantee success. Look at Man City. Look at Chelsea. Ranierri had the money, so did Scholari. Only Mourinho's talent could turn it into success. If there is one advantage that some clubs have over others, it's the ability to draw in the very top players with the lure of CL football.
    Another point in the argument over Ferguson's financial assistance is that for a long chunk of his career, his side were winning championship after championship with a nucleus of players that had cost him no more than the price of bringing them through the youth squad.

    Posted 3 years ago #
14. ransos - Member

    "As for the argument that nothing is comparable because of the money involved in today's game, I'd argue that the money is the same for everyone"

    The point is that years ago, a small club with a brilliant manager could win the league (a la Clough). That simply isn't possible now - the only smallish club to win it in the last 20 years was Blackburn, and they were being bankrolled at the time.

    Your point about Man U being equivalent to spurs when SAF took over - in terms of achievement I agree, but the fact remains that they had more financial clout than almost anyone else, even then.

    Posted 3 years ago #
15. trailmonkey - Member

    The point is that years ago, a small club with a brilliant manager could win the league (a la Clough). That simply isn't possible now - the only smallish club to win it in the last 20 years was Blackburn, and they were being bankrolled at the time.

    OK, I can see that argument. However, I think it was just as unlikely when Clough did it as it would be now. Also, look at Ferguson's stats at Aberdeen. He did a Clough style job there. I think he's proved his worth at clubs at both ends of the prestige/wealth scale.

    Posted 3 years ago #
16. G - Member

    I'd argue that the money is the same for everyone.

    You can argue that if you like trail monkey, but you would be seriously wrong. All that Man C. Chelsea and Newcastle prove is that it is virtually impossible for any club to compete due to the financial disparity created by the Premier Leagues rules. Flip your argument over and think in terms of Abramovitch purportedly investing half a billion into Chelsea and it still not being enough to seriously compete with the trimuverate. Then look at the ever growing list of clubs bankrupted by a foray into the Premier world. At some point the regularity with which great old clubs like Ipswich, Leicester, Charlton, Leeds, Southampton, Derby etc etc etc are collasping like a deck of cards as a result, will wake you up to the fact that they can't all have been run by complete twunts and there has to be something structurally wrong in the game.

    Its farcical, the all party commons committee that looked into it actually recommended that they revert back to the old situation pre Premier league to enable the professional game to survive in the long term. Frankly, as a life long supporter of a so called "small" club it is sickening to see the Fergie/Wenger/Benitez/Hiddink fans wattling on about how fantastic these guys are. They aren't. You try playing Fantasy football with your kids. Give them unlimited funding, and you start off having to sell your best players routinely and not be able to spend any money whatsoever, and then see how you do. I think you'll find that in these circumstances the better managers are lower down the league.

    Posted 3 years ago #
17. trailmonkey - Member

    I think you'll find that in these circumstances the better managers are lower down the league.

    OK, name a few that could take over from Ferguson and Wenger and maintain that level of acievement.

    Posted 3 years ago #
18. G - Member

    Starting from the same position, with ongoing funding as he gets?

    Martin O'Neil, David Moyes, Harry Redknapp, Roy Hodgson, Steve Bruce, all people in my opinion who have punched well above their finacial weight.

    In the past I'd point you at the likes of Cloughie, Ramsay, and most especially Sir Bob, whose career saw him take teams to the very top in English, Spanish, Dutch and Portugese football alongside equitting himself extremely well at National level, only losing out on the big one ultimately to a blatant cheat.

    Posted 3 years ago #
19. higgo - Member

    I think you'll find that in these circumstances the better managers are lower down the league.

    Then they need to find better agents.

    I seriously doubt there are significant numbers of managers with top-flight potential who struggle by day-by-day out of some sort of misty-eyer romanticism.

    Posted 3 years ago #
20. BigButSlimmerBloke - Member

    What a stupid and ignorant thing to say, by someone who hazzunt a clue

    LOL at the stupidity, ignorance and irony of that post

    Posted 3 years ago #
21. G - Member

    I seriously doubt there are significant numbers of managers with top-flight potential who struggle by day-by-day out of some sort of misty-eyer romanticism.

    Sorry you lost me with that one.

    Posted 3 years ago #
22. Guilliano - Member

    Fergie has built 3 or 4 dominant teams, only once partly through the youth system that he had re-established at Man Utd. But he did pick up some right bargains along the way..... Steve Bruce, Peter Schmeichel, Eric Cantona (£1.1m WTF?). Nowadays the game at the top level has changed and he has eveolved with it, buying in the likes of Rafael, Macheda, Rooney, Ronaldo. But he always buys players who will fit into what Man Utd is all about, which is winning with exciting football.

    Whether he is the greatest ever manager is open to debate. Clough is an obvious candidate, as are Paisley, Revie, Saunders (IMO), and despite his lack of success here Venables.

    As for the money thing..... Did Scholari have money? £8m for Deco was his only signing. Personally I think that the money makes it harder to be a success as once it's spent instant success is expected from above. Fergie was given the ultimate currency in the job of rebuilding what was a poor team..... time!

    Posted 3 years ago #
23. G - Member

    the ultimate currency in the job of rebuilding what was a poor team..... time

    Strangely much the same as for all of the managers I have listed. Albeit most of them are at their Aberdeens.

    G

    Posted 3 years ago #
24. Guilliano - Member

    The big question is who should take over from Fergie?

    I'm not a Man Utd fan so I can be objective about it. Personally I think either David Moyes, Steve Bruce or Martin O'Niell should be given the chance. All very good managers who have a lot of respect throughout the game and would relish the chance to take on the best in Europe on equal terms

    Posted 3 years ago #
25. mt - Member

    Mike Basset was probably the best manager ever.

    I note with interest that the debate has proceed with people calling each other stupid for some time now, is it because of a missing person?

    Derby County, Brian Clough, Baseball Ground, say it in any order you like but standing with my Grandad listening to him shouting at/for/with Clough.
    Agree with loads of the facts above but know who I think should have been the worlds best manager..... my Grandad.

    Posted 3 years ago #
26. G - Member

    the worlds best manager..... my Grandad.

    Without doubt the most profound footballing post of the thread. Top man mt

    Posted 3 years ago #
27. trailmonkey - Member

    Martin O'Neil, David Moyes, Harry Redknapp, Roy Hodgson, Steve Bruce, all people in my opinion who have punched well above their finacial weight.

    Well, picking Martin O'Neil and David Moyes hardly counts does it, considering that they manage the teams in 5th and 6th place anyway ( hands off MON by the way, he's already at the best club in the world )Redknapp deserves a chance at something bigger, Hodgson has already had some big jobs (Inter, Swiss national) and been steady at best. Bruce has done a really good job so far but top four ? Surely he'd need to prove himself a little more first.
    However much you may dislike them, it's no mistake that Wenger. Mourinho and Fergie are in the positions that they are and have won the silverware that they have. In football management, cream rises to the top.

    Posted 3 years ago #
28. G - Member

    In football management, cream rises to the top.

    That point would be better phrased that in football the top cream off the cash and then take the rise by whining and putting out sub standard sides.

    Whatever happened to the rule about fielding an understrength team?? I recall you used to get kicked out of competitions, fined and docked points for it. Guess that was another rule they ripped up to suit themselves eh?

    Posted 3 years ago #
29. trailmonkey - Member

    That point would be better phrased that in football the top cream off the cash.

    I think we're just going round in circles on this one. Ferguson proved his worth at a club with no money.

    Posted 3 years ago #
30. Guilliano - Member

    And Wenger got his job by being friends with David Dein.....

    Posted 3 years ago #
31. G - Member

    I think we're just going round in circles on this one. Ferguson proved his worth at a club with no money

    Fair point, except that no he didn't. The vast majority of his success as a manager came after the formation of the Premiership. The simple point I'm making is that his net worth as a manager cannot therefore be judged agaisnt the likes of Cloughie or for that matter David Moyse or Martin O'Neil. Simply because its a totally rigged competition, which has nothing whatsoever to do with relative capabilities as managers and everything to do with the siphoning off of the cash in the game to a very limited self selected few.

    To go back to the original point, I have no doubt Fergie is a great fella and a wonderful manager, but we will never know how he would have done with a level playing field, (Ironic then that the absence of one of those, should upset him of all people!!)

    Posted 3 years ago #
32. terrahawk - Member

    Simply because its a totally rigged competition, which has nothing whatsoever to do with relative capabilities as managers and everything to do with the siphoning off of the cash in the game to a very limited self selected few.

    silly boy.

    Posted 3 years ago #
33. trailmonkey - Member

    Fair point, except that no he didn't. The vast majority of his success as a manager came after the formation of the Premiership.

    Ferguson did an exceptional job at Aberdeen, long before his success at Man Utd. Easily comparable to the rags to riches style achievements of Clough and Saunders. I'm sorry G, but to win the national championship, the major cup and a major european trophy ( against Real Madrid ) with a club with those limited resources was remarkable. It's not even open to debate. In fact, you've got far more chance of convincing me that his later achievements were less worthy.

    Posted 3 years ago #
34. steve_b77 - Member

    If we're all going to be honest here about modern day managers:

    Fergie - Supremely arrognat, undeniably great record.

    Benitez - Good/very good cup record, apparently can't understand Fergie 'cos he doesn't speak in Spanish

    Wenger - "Didn't see it" & pretty much perenial under achiever

    Hidink - could do great things at Chelski, proven international record and european club record, clearly owned/controlled by Putin now-a-days

    Merinio - as arrogant as Fergie, almost bordering on having a God complex, bloody good manager, falls out with people too easily.

    O'neil could possibly be the next Fergie, probably will be

    And that's pretty much as I see it sat over here in the corner

    Posted 3 years ago #
35. G - Member

    silly boy.

    Why Terra??? Like to back that one up??

    Ferguson did an exceptional job at Aberdeen

    Nobody said he didn't, just that the majority of his claim to fame came after the premiership was formed fundamentally by Dean, Edwards and Parry, pretty much to suit themselves, and for that reason the successes of those clubs can't be judged against the achievements of managers who did it on a level playing field. Pre premiership the competition was far greater and far more even. You only have to look at the results of the various competitions played since to see the truth of that simple statement.

    (Incidentally Aberdeen were one of the more successful clubs in a poor league dominated by the old firm well before Ferguson went there, not quite rags to riches to be fair.)

    Sorry but Fergie will never get the recognition he might deserve from the majority of knowledgeable fans for those reasons.

    Posted 3 years ago #

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