I don't hold with this 'National Institution' thing though
They are in the sense they are much loved/admired by a huge amount of people in this country, and are very much part of the country's traditions (and yes, I know that's open to a huge amount of debate about what is a "country's tradition).
Which is why I don't see why taxpayers' money needs to be spent keeping them going.
For the simple reason that we'd miss them if they weren't there.
Or maybe just part of a ritual or culture that you don't understand so you're attacking it like ignorant, narrow minded people do.
The government talks of slashing spending on badly needed public services, thousands will lose their jobs, and you want to be all ceremonial over a **** goat? Go and do it in private then! 
Seriously though, what's to understand? An anachronistic 'ritual' that has no place in the realm of public spending.
Explain to me exactly how such frivolous nonsense is essential in ensuring the security of our nation? As I said before, if people are passionate about it, let them pay from their own pockets rather than taxpayers' money being wasted on it.
Kennyp;
Notice that I'm not actually calling for theRed Arrows to be 'scrapped', in fact, as I've said, I like watching them. I just can't see the justification in using taxpayers' money to fund them any longer. Times have changed. Water is now in the hands of the Private Sector, so why can't alternative funding be found for things like the Red Arrows and ceremonial goats? These things aren't in any way necessary, so why should all of society pay for them? Let those who do care fund them if they are concerned with preserving them. As I said at the start, the RNLI is charity funded and voluntarily staffed. And saves lives. Many Air Ambulances are also charity funded. So why are we all paying for a display team and some goats, horses and shiny buttons? I thought the Nation had to tighten it's belt? I'm just looking for possible money saving schemes.
keep them , there great .
the RNLI is charity funded and voluntarily staffed. And saves lives.
I thought the RNLI liked being self funded as it avoids central government interference?
what your approach fails to take into account are factors like morale, heritage, tradition. it may seem unusual to someone outside of these organisations, but links to the past are enormously pertinent to the guys and girls of our armed forces we ask to ( or who volunteer, depending upon how you look at it ) put their lives on the line for what our politicians determine worth fighting for. anachronistic? perhaps. but if it makes the chaps who have to ship out to the sandpit or afghanistan feel even a little bit better about it, and feel some link to those in their battalion who have gone, and given their lives before them, it's worth it, isn't it?
oh - and i think the rnli has always been charity based, and although i'd be very happy for the air ambulance to scoop me up in a timely manner if break myself, there has been a cost/benefit analysis in most regions that suggests that they just aren't worth it.
Thanks Del, for an intelligent, reasoned viewpoint. Something to consider, for sure. I appreciate the role of 'mascots' in military regiments, but I do think a lot of the parade stuff is outdated and a waste of public money. I do see the point of keeping morale up for troops on the front line, for sure, but I hardly think a bloody goat in a little jerkin is all that appropriate, let's be honest.
Just quickly going back to an earlier part of the thread - I know "Squadron Leader Steve R. JOHNSON" they guy who hit a yacht mast in brighton back in 1980. really really nice guy, flies commercial aircraft these days.
Elfinsafety - you appear to have no understanding of the Armed Forces as a whole, the people who serve, their motivation, the relationship of the UK defence industry (which exists, employs thousands and brings billions to the economy whether you personally like it or not) with the UK as a whole and the importance of inherited values and traditions.
As usual, you see the cost of everything and the value of nothing. As with any large organization, if you look at something as big as the Navy, Army and Air Force and view each penny packet in isolation without knowledge of capability, relationship to other elements or origins, things are simple. Take several steps back, see it in context and suddenly things become much clearer - more complex but clearer.
the Red Arrows are just a display team
No, they are noy JUST a display team. They are THE BEST aircraft display team in the World. Bar none. And for that alone £8.8 million is worth it just to rub the Yanks faces in it. 
Tell you what, I've just worked out they cost everyone about 15p a year. I'll give you £1.50 and they you're not paying for them for the next 10 years, eh? 
Given the amount of people crowded round Falmouth & the general area last night & the amount that'll be in Fowey next wednesday & I'm sure that's replicated where ever they turn up, I'd say it's money well spent.
I'll give him £1.50 as well.
15p a year's a bargain.
How much was claimed by MP's last year I wonder, probably not 8 million but I know where I'd rather see my money go.
My wife and daughter watched them in while they were in Minehead yesterday, supposedly Butlins paid the (£6000?)fee.
I think it would cost a lot more than 6k to get them all off the ground for a display, but if they are anything like the Vulcan (my father-in-law works for/with them) they string several displays all over the country together in the same sortie: it only takes them half an hour to get from one to the next so as long as they make sure they've done a wee before they leave....
Saw them flying over the Goodwood Festival of Speed this year..they made me quite proud and emotional. I wonder how many international visitors looked up and commented that they wish their country had something similar?
Typical if this country....something works....let's discuss scrapping it,
Jeez they install far more pride than those idiotic overpaid footballers that have spawned 50 years of moronic idolisation and zombie like followings!
Fly high for as long as you can - long live our great Red Arrows!
Love the Red Arrows... £8.5 million a year? Bargain!
Do any of the knockers consider that doing this sort of thing hones the skills needed to fly a plane?
It hones the skill of flying very close formation for ten pilots out of I don't know how many, yes. It has the square root of bugger all to do with tactical combat flying though.
(I'm not a knocker.)
Any RAF types care to comment?
Given the amount of people crowded round Falmouth & the general area last night & the amount that'll be in Fowey next wednesday & I'm sure that's replicated where ever they turn up, I'd say it's money well spent.
You live in Falmouth?
We're nearby and saw the whole lot from our garden - amazing!!
yes, also the italian version of the red arrows are better!
mmmmmm....not as precise, but they do have a better commentator
I love the way that my point has sailed spectacularly over some of your heads, leaving a red white and blue smoke trail...
Elfinsafety - you appear to have no understanding of the Armed Forces as a whole
They exist to serve the nation; to defend our borders and our interests overseas. By and large most of those who serve do a fantastic job. But a large part of the 'job' involves the potential for killing and destruction. I don't see much glamour in the armed forces. I find it disturbing that some seek to glorify their role. To me, they are a necessary evil. As for the defence industry, I'd much prefer it if all those people weren't employed making guns and bombs, and making benign things instead. So much effort going into the mechanics of War. Wouldn't you much rather see them build bicycles?
When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. ~H.G. Wells
.
As usual, you see the cost of everything and the value of nothing.
I fail to see the value in wasting taxpayers' money on frivolities at a time when public services are being cut. I think it's long overdue that many military 'traditions' were looked at as part of the 'austerity drive'. Why should they remain beyond scrutiny? If there is a 'value' in retaining them, fine. Certainly the soldiers in funny hats outside Buckingham Palace seem to be part of the tourist attraction, so maybe provide good value for money. I'm not talking about destroying tradition, I'm just asking if certain things could be funded in different ways, this saving money for more important things like healthcare, education, etc which will undoubtedly suffer with all the cuts that are going to be made.
I would like to think I've got life expectancy of at least another 40 years ahead of me. So if anyone who wants to pay me so that the cost of the Red Arrows isn't coming out of my pocket, great. Oh can I add on all the other 'traditional ceremonial stuff' that I see as unnecessary as well please? I'll round it up to about £20 a head, is that ok? So each of you that want to keep paying for it all out of your taxes, could you give me £20 each? Thanks.
I might be able to afford a new bicycle! Woohoo!
Epicyclo
I think it gives the main-line pilots something to aim for and introduces a healthy competition to encourage pilots to perform to their very best.
It also has the added benefit that when the guys return to the front-line or training units they can export some of their techniques to the rest of the pilots; I've had first-hand benefit from this.
However it is far from operational; many pilots (no names named!!) haven't and probably won't see the operational flying that us lesser pilots have enjoyed. To me that's the crux of being a military pilot; spending time on operations doing 'THE' job.
It's also used as a break from the front line; there is only so long you can sustain ops before burning out, however the Reds work bloody hard and it's not a rest by any stretch in the true sense of the word!!
Went to see the red arrows at Eastbourne yesterday. They are superb.
I am sure there are ways to reduce the cost, and I'm sure they will be asked to tighten the belt, but it would be terrible if they were no longer flying.
To answer to the OP yes... The planes are sh1te anyway, you want alpha-jets.
They are THE BEST aircraft display team in the World
The image of the Queen and the Royals is part of the reason they come and spend their dosh here. It's a big part of our "brand image" as a tourist destination.
Now you are just so **** wrong. Utterly, massively just plain wrong.
I would say for 85-90% of the people who want to vist the UK want to visit (please lets pray fred don't see what I am going to write) London. The goldne eyes, the bridges, the millenium dome, camden town. When you ask foreigners (and I bet I have ask a lot more than you) about UK, answers are:
Bad weather
Bad food
Red phone booth
Boddy hats
and London (ok not in that particular order, but we can't have fred get a heart attack).
The queen comes way down the list.
The Red Arrows are crowd pullers wherever they go worldwide, and I also personally believe they are the best aerobatics display team in the world. They are ambassadors for the Royal Air Force, and even more so for UK Aviation, a lot of aircraft and equipment sales are generated off the backs of Red Arrows visits to other countries.
Also, there is quite a bit of behind the scenes work done by the team. You all probably don't know that this year is the 150th anniversary of Cadet Organizations in the United Kingdom. As part of this, a number of Army, Navy, ATC and CCF Cadets were given a Red Arrows visit, and a lucky few Cadets were given the opportunity to fly with them in the Flypast of Buckingham Palace during the Anniversary Parade. To me, the red Arrows giving once in a lifetime opportunities like that is worth the price alone!
There are certain things at airshows which a crowd stopppers - one of those is the Red Arrows, as soon as they start their display, all eyes are turned skywards.
The same happened at Waddington earlier this year, but I must admit, I enjoyed these guys more....
Red Arrows at the Bristol Balloon Fiesta 2010
Just seen the display at the Bristol Balloon Fiesta (Pictures courtesy of BBC Bristol) absolutely awesome and worth every penny of the £8.8M
juan: I meant real people, not the French
Obviously a country of republicans will be less interested in Royalty, but try asking Americans or anyone from the Commonwealth (or even former Empire countries).
Bad weather
Bad food
Red phone booth
Boddy hats
and London
Yeah but people don't come for those except maybe London - and part of the attraction of London is the royal stuff anyway.
They've just flown over my house and they're superb.
Excellence like this deserves such funding.
Plenty of other things out there that should be scrapped ... but not this.
tell the pope to stay home, run the red arrows for nearly three years...
Dont know if anyone has mentioned this but the pilots themselves have done all the training and tours in various other fast jets before applying / being selected for the arrows. I believe they are a genuine bunch, i know the guy who ejected out of his earlier this year - I work with his wife - I can honestly say that while it may seem to some that they are just 'messing in jets' they genuinely are hard workers and when not flying they are raising money for charities, they ran the London Marathon this year for a charity that gives RAF staff better call facilities when on tour back home, they are currently planning a Lands end to John O Groats trip for charity.
Since joining the RAF all he wanted to do was be a Red Arrow pilot, it is the highest accolade for some pilots, to do so he did his service and all that was required of him. i also know a Typhoon pilot who says the arrows arent for him, its each to his own.
Forget scrapping them, put a stop to all illegal benefits, dont allow any illegal immigrants any money from the UK, etc etc etc
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