I’d say its as difficult for someone like me, from the north to identify with being ‘English’ as it is for the Scots.

When I see this ridiculous home counties idea of Englishness portayed in Daily Mail-land, I feel the same connection to it as I do to the indigenous tribesmen of Papua New Guinea

i suspect the opinion polls just now reflect the nations desire to stay as is, because they have no idea what the outcome would be should we “go it alone”

That doesn’t stop a fair amount of the population wanting to leave the EU though, does it?

When abroad I’m embarrassed to be labelled as English. End of really.

On slightly different note, a chap with Ghanaian parents joined the company I was working for. We took him out for a welcome drink and he asked “does anyone else of a ethnic minority background work here other than me?”

One of the chaps piped up with “I’m from Aberdeen pal, how much ethnic minority do you want?”. Well, it made me smile.

Maybe it’s cos most of us just aren’t that parochial and insecure that we need to go banging on about how proud we are of our cultural identity?

Or perhaps Scots just don’t worry so much about what other people might label them for expressing some pride in their heritage? 😀

I think most of us actually are quite proud to be where we’re from. I know I am.

Hmm I wonder how many English folk celebrate St George’s Day?

It does seem to have gained a little popularity of late, which is good. But I find it slightly odd that a national day which coincides with the birthday and deathday of Shakespeare still goes largely unmarked, while St Andrew’s Day and Burns’ night celebrations happen all over the world.

I’d quite happily celebrate a “Union Day” if that helps?

You know. I think we have more in common than we like to admit.

I also think a lot of ‘anti-English’ sentiment north of the border is misplaced anti-toff sentiment, IME anyway. It’s interesting nobody ever talks about anti-Scottish sentiment, as evidenced on this thread [well some of it, I guess some is just trolling] and the comments section of any BBC News article on this subject.

I vote we just cull the arseholes, north and south, and everyone else can just get on with it.

GrahamS – The comment about Mel Gibson was meant to be tongue in cheek! I grew up in a family that celebrated our Scottish cultural heritage quite extensively, so I’m very aware that our sense of identity is a lot deeper and broader than ‘Braveheart’ 😀

When abroad I’m embarrassed to be labelled as English. End of really.

Weird, I’m quite happy to be labelled as English.

On that basis, I don’t really see why UK taxpayers’ money should be wasted on what is ultimately quite a trivial matter for the whole of the UK.

Haven’t read the whole thread, but that comment for me captures exactly the kind of attitude that makes about a third of scots want independance and another third want independence lite/devolution max.

Even if we accept that this is a trivial matter for the uk (which it is absolutely not – why do all the big uk parties oppose it? Because they know exactly what Scotland contributes to the UK – they’re not just trying to keep the family together), it’s a bloody huge thing for us folk in Scotland.

I did read that a sculptor donated a statue of Mel Gilson as William Wallace to the Wallace monument in Stirling that wound up being consistently vandalized.

Was it because the statue itself was “a lump of crap” as one local put it, or a protest against the hammy portrayal of Wallace? I’d like to think it was the latter…

Interesting stuff – I just had a quick google of “English Heritage” to see what it would reveal (besides castles and stately homes) and came across this…

I assume it’s okay to post it because it’s art BTW

Is the subject meant to be holding in a fart?

*loves it when STWers get nationalism-based identity crises*

GrahamS – The comment about Mel Gibson was meant to be tongue in cheek!

Don’t worry – it was taken as such. 🙂 But it does seem to be a recurring straw man used to dismiss Scottish national pride or independence.

I also think a lot of ‘anti-English’ sentiment north of the border is misplaced anti-toff sentiment, IME anyway.

Most (sensible) Scots have nothing against the English people, just English rule – which I guess tends to be the “toffs”.

I think a lot of “anti-English sentiment” these days is typically just banter that gets taken a bit too far.

It’s interesting nobody ever talks about anti-Scottish sentiment

I’ve often heard English folk complain that the Scots are holding a grudge. Yet the same people will happily laugh at jokes about “the French” – a “grudge” that dates back to 1337 odd.

The Union will not survive. A federation might, but first England needs its own seperate parliament.

The move for independence is deep seated and has been growing for many generations. The media are busy rigging all sorts of polls (eg the latest) but the results of the last election showed completely the contrary.

Labour has lost a lot of ground in Scotland because it is seen now as anti-Scotland. They even campaign with the English rose on their posters and signs – that’s stupid IMO. The current Labour leader seems to be recognising this, so we may see Labour get more votes next time.

Many of the people I know who vote for the SNP do so because they regard the biggest issue facing Scotland as independence. Once independence comes they would polarise back into their natural left/right/middle political leanings and the SNP will become a small party.

Elfinsafety – Member
Maybe it’s cos most of us just aren’t that parochial and insecure that we need to go banging on about how proud we are of our cultural identity? And maybe it’s because actually, we’re really quite culturally diverse, and there is more of a sense of ‘regional’ identity than a ‘national’ one. I spose we aren’t as nationalistic in that sense.

I think most of us actually are quite proud to be where we’re from. I know I am.

You OK Fred ?
that’s a really well put non-inflammatory intelligent post (For an East Londoner!!)

Hmm I wonder how many English folk celebrate St George’s Day?

It does seem to have gained a little popularity of late, which is good. But I find it slightly odd that a national day which coincides with the birthday and deathday of Shakespeare still goes largely unmarked, while St Andrew’s Day and Burns’ night celebrations happen all over the world.

Fair point actually. Personally I’m not all that fussed about saint’s days, as that’s a Christian thing, but a Shakespeare Day might be a good un. Give up some of the Christian holidays such as Whitsun, Good Friday, Easter, replace them with more ‘English’ holidays. Don’t see why such things can’t change,; culture is a constantly evolving thing, not some stagnant permanently fixed entity.

Scotland could have a John Logie Baird Day (TBH I think that would actually be a greater celebration of Scottishness in a global context than Burns’ Night), we could have a Isambard Kingdom Brunel day, and the Welsh could have a Harry Secombe Day.

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kfs1HGk8DEs[/video]

Its head looks like the kind of thing one might find on a sex-doll…so I hear.

about a third of scots want independance

So, because approximately one point six million people want independence, that’s good enough reason to ignore the views and onions of the other fifty eight or so million UK citizens?

Wunundred! 😀

Oh, and Scottish people; you’re getting an extra bank holiday next year to celebrate the Queen’s Diamond Jubilee.

Aren’t you lucky! 😀

Many of the people I know who vote for the SNP do so because they regard the biggest issue facing Scotland as independence.

Opposite here. Most people I know that voted SNP are not in favour of independence, but didn’t want Labour back and saw the SNP as viable opposition.

Scotland could have a John Logie Baird Day

I think we celebrate his (main) contribution more than enough!

GrahamS – Member
…Opposite here. Most people I know that voted SNP are not in favour of independence, but didn’t want Labour back and saw the SNP as viable opposition.

I thought they all went Lib Dem.

I’d say its as difficult for someone like me, from the north to identify with being ‘English’ as it is for the Scots.

When I see this ridiculous home counties idea of Englishness portayed in Daily Mail-land, I feel the same connection to it as I do to the indigenous tribesmen of Papua New Guinea

Hmm, i’m from the North too Binners (just round the corner from you remember? :P) yet i DO feel a sense of ‘Englishness’ if you will. Maybe it comes from my love of history but i love the story of the creation of England, how waves of settlers and warriors took a land from the natives then defended that land against their cousins the Danes and the Norse. How ‘Anglaland’ was at one point reduced to approx. 5 square miles around Athelney before Alfred and his warlords started to retake England. How Alfred’s dream of uniting all of the ‘Angelcynn’ under one banner became a reality under AEthelstan etc.
I think the difference is that being English we’ve not had anyone to hate (maybe the wrong term) for such a long time (since we were last conquered) that we have not needed the indignant sense of Nationalism that the Scots and Welsh feel – understandably.
We’ve become so comfortable with our self-identity that we allowed the racists and extremists to take our Flag and besmirch it.

muddydwarf – Member
…I think the difference is that being English we’ve not had anyone to hate (maybe the wrong term) for such a long time (since we were last conquered) that we have not needed the indignant sense of Nationalism that the Scots and Welsh feel – understandably…

Ah, but we weren’t conquered.

Our king took over the throne of England (union of the crowns), and then 100 years later our parasitic aristocrats sold us down the river of union of the parliaments.

I don’t think we hate the English, but we do have a contempt for our quislings who as soon as they get to Westminster forget their country.

I think the difference is that being English we’ve not had anyone to hate…

http://www.jokefile.co.uk/odds/french.html
http://www.igreens.org.uk/more_french_jokes.htm
http://www.arrse.co.uk/miscellaneous-jokes/144474-french-jokes.html

etc etc 🙂

Personally, i’d like to see Scottish Independence. It won’t make the blindest bit of difference to the great majority of the English, and it might just make both Nations grow up a little.
I do wonder what groups like the Scottish SnG would do if it did happen though..

Ah but we don’t hate the French, pity them, bemused by them and increasingly jealous of them yes, but not hate – certainly not in the way that some Scots appear to hate the English! 😛

There certainly would appear to be more people voted SNP than poll in favour of independence. We will find out when the referendum is held.

alec Salmond is a very able politician and makes the rest at Holyrood look like political nonentities

The independence debate has moved a long way in Scotland from how i remember it back in the 70s – much more open and outward looking, much more positive and much less defined by “we hate the english”

In the end its a philosophical point – do you want self determination as a nation or do you want to remain a junior part of a union. To those wedded tot eh idea of independence the economic arguement is irrelevant. Would you stay in a joyless marriage because you enjoyed the lifestyle?

My view is that an independent Scotland would be much better off – partly as a result of the oil money and partly ‘cos they could make macro economic policy to suit.

As for the OPs point – why on earth should England have a vote on what Scotland does? I didn’t get a vote for the London Mayer.

muddydwarf – Member
Personally, i’d like to see Scottish Independence. It won’t make the blindest bit of difference to the great majority of the English, and it might just make both Nations grow up a little.

That. I hate Scots that whinge about “English rule” and then refuse to do anything about it.

What time do you call this eh Uncle Jezza?

You also din’t get a vote in the Doncaster, Hartlepool and Torbay Mayoral Elections, TJ. And neither did I.

So what’s your point?

So, because approximately one point six million people want independence, that’s good enough reason to ignore the views and onions of the other fifty eight or so million UK citizens?

Elfinsaefty, what’s your point exactly? On one hand you’re saying it it’s a trivial thing and the UK as a whole shouldn’t bother considering it, while on the other you’re saying that nothing should change without an overall UK majority. You seem to be saying it’s important enough for the uk as a whole to decide, but it’s not important enough for the uk to actually do any deciding. Which to me is a bit like saying to scotland “Sit down and shut up. speak when you’re spoken to. nobody asked you”. Which is exactly the kind of thing that makes Two Thirds of people is scotland want significant change to the current arrangements.

111 posts and nobody has mentioned legal tender!!!?!!? 😀

As for the OPs point – why on earth should England have a vote on what Scotland does? I didn’t get a vote for the London Mayer.

England wouldn’t get a vote – this thread demonstrates there is no coherent idea of what that is, let alone a collective identity. The proposal is that every citizen of the UK would have a say in what happened to the future of the UK. You didn’t get a vote in the London Mayor elections because you don’t live in London.

The oil money could be a bit of a canard actually, i remember looking up the comparative costings for 2004 and being surprised to find that the gap between what Scotland earned in internal revenue raised and what she spent was 3.5 times the amount of revenue raised from the oil money – in other words, 9at least for that year) the oil money made the shortfall a little less embarrassing it seems. I’ve no idea what the costings are for this year though.
Plus, the gas will be English apart from 5% and England will get 5% of the oil revenue – such as it is.

I don’t get the Scottish whines about ‘our’ oil though, the project was funded with UK revenue so it’s only right that the revenue returned was returned to the UK Govt.

Oh Christ! That’s torn it!!

*runs off and hides*

Elfinsaefty, what’s your point exactly?

Would the dissolution of the Union be of benefit to all the people of the UK. Not just a small minority.

That’s my point.

Why should the people of Cornwall or the North East, or South Wales not have a say in something that could have an impact on their economic situation?

My view is that an independent Scotland would be much better off – partly as a result of the oil money and partly ‘cos they could make macro economic policy to suit.

What a greedy self-centered Toryesque view. ‘Sod the rest of you we want the money for yourselves’.

Nice, TJ; nice….

Oh and if we do agree to a trial separation, could we give you the Old Firm and their bampot fans as a farewell gift? Orange walks, you can have them too if you like. Actually, we’ll give your our Neds for free as well. 😀

No thanks, we’ll get enough bowler-hatted **** landing here when Ulster reverts to the Rpublic! 😆