If you had the choice, the money and the need for either a Rohloff hub or the new Shimano Alfine 11 speed hub which would you choose and why?

Ta

the choice, the money and the need

Tick, tick and tick

Alfine 11 – mainly because it isn't as pricey as a Rohloff and I'm praying on my bended knees (..a nod to Ton's thread perhaps..) that either Shimano or Versa come up with a road STi shifter to suit sooner rather than later.

Same here. Alfine hub with a not too expensive STI shifter – dream combo road bike wise for me.

Which would take the most abuse off road though?

Alfine 11 is unproven yet, and not even sure of the prices either. If I was planning a rough stuff ride across South America I would go with the rohloff, if the prices of the new alfine come in at under 300 then for les remote riding I would give it a go, hope they do an xt shifter for it though rather than the silver gack it looks like it will have.

edit: oh I forgot, I would still rather have the alfine gack shifter than the rohloff grip twist.

http://www.wiggle.co.uk/p/cycle/7/Shimano_Alfine_11-Speed_Disc_Hub_without_Fittings/5360051007/

Yours to pre-order now, obv the price doesn't include fitting kit and shifter. I saw another place taking pre-orders with an expected date of late Sept, though I understand this may have to be taken with a pinch of salt.

I would go Alfine as it's cheaper, lighter, has a trigger shifter, and it's gear ratios are closer together.
Only reason I would go Rohloff would be if I was doing an expedition and needed guaranteed bombproof-ness.

P.S. Alfine shifters are available in back as well as silver

I've had rohloff and alfine 8(still got)
Rohloff is much better ratioed, alfine 11 may address that, rohloff feels robust, and the components are built to last, I like the twist grip, as many gears as you like, when you like, in many ways I'd like another if I had the money.
S/h is a good option for rohloff and I'd choose that over an 11 alfine

He asked which would you choose, money no object, yet people are justifying the Alfine on price?

He asked which would you choose, money no object, yet people are justifying the Alfine on price?

Fair point – I would still go for Alfine as I like the look of the current Alfine 8/Versa VRS8 shifter combo as a road commuter set up and expect/hope there will be a "VRS11" shifter in the pipeline. The implimentation of the Rohloff twist shifters on drop bars (SJS's for example) does not look pretty IMO. For offroad, my choices may be different – but that's not what I'm building at the moment.

I don't think the price can really be ignored as the Rohloff is basically twice the price of the Alfine.
If I try to ignore price I think I'd personally still go for the Alfine based on weight and rear ratios.
Unless it was for an expedition bike or something as I said.

have ridden a few rohloffs , dont remember them being super draggy.

yet read quite a few posts over on mtbr slating them for being super draggy ….

remind me , are they talking shite …

only downside on a roloff for me is that 1:1 or the most efficient isnt 7th its 11th 🙁

Is the Rohloff that much heavier than the up coming Alfine 11 speed?

1.9kg seems to be accepted weight for a rohloff set up – not sure if that includes rings chain and sprocket though – i guess if its like for like to the xt set up it should

xt seems to be 1.7-1.9 kg

whats an alfine 11 going to weigh ?

I've been running an 8-speed Alfine on my commuter Roadrat and do like it, although the gear range would be a restriction for either a tourer or off-roader.

I'm definitelty interested in the 11-speed Alfine and expect to get one at some point. Rohloff I'm much less interested in – partly because it's too heavy for what it costs, and partly because I hate twistgrips.

For an expedition bike I think I'd actually rather have a conventional set-up because I know I can fix or bodge most issues. If a Rohloff fails (and I have read a few reports of problems) then you're likely to be completely stuffed.

I read on road.cc that the Alfine is expected to weigh approx 1590g. I guess that's just for the hub itself.
I believe a Rohloff hub weights approx 1700g on it's own, plus you have the weight of the shift-box thing on the side. Don't know what that weight but it looks pretty hefty.

" If a Rohloff fails (and I have read a few reports of problems) then you're likely to be completely stuffed"

i have also read about these.

Im looking at one for a commuting/training POV – i still think for Tour divide id use traditional XT/XTR set up or SS over a rohloff

Im looking at one for a commuting/training POV

Even the 8-speed Alfine is pretty good for commuting. I've lowered the gearing slightly on my Roadrat so it's 45 at the front and 20 (I think – possibly 22) at the back now. On my commute I've yet to run out of high gears (although I do spend a fair bit of time in the biggest gear) and the low range is ok although for really steep hills I might need to stand up and grunt rather than sit down and spin. I'd be wanting a bit lower on a fully loaded tourer tourer though, as facing a long uphill drag into the wind with a fully loaded bike at the end of a long day would definitely see me off and pushing with the current setup.

For an expedition bike I think I'd actually rather have a conventional set-up because I know I can fix or bodge most issues. If a Rohloff fails (and I have read a few reports of problems) then you're likely to be completely stuffed.

There aren't that many ways a Rohloff can fail and leave you with nothing. In fact there is only one that I have heard of actually happening and that is shearing the nylon shear pins – although if you do that it is likely because you're using the hub outside of its specification, those pins are designed to shear in order to protect the hub. If they do shear you are left with no drive, but again this would only happen if you ignored Rohloff's instructions in the first place.

The other one would be the hub shell cracking I suppose but that could happen to a normal hub as well and isn't any more likely.

All other sudden failures, as opposed to things wearing out, that I can think of still leave you with a working hub – SS, fixie, change gear with 8 mm spanner etc. I suspect that there are many more ways a normal derailleur set up can break and not be repairable on the spot.

As you can probably tell I have a Rohloff and I rate it. Money no object for MTBing then you would of course go Rohloff every time for the reliability and range of gears, which is much greater than an Alfine. They are not infallable though, mine has been to Germany twice (about every 18 months) to have the bearings changed. This hasn't cost me anything yet though and takes only 7-10 days so I can't really complain. I ride quite a lot and in that time my derailleur bike has had a lot more attention and a lot less miles.

Rohloff for the win! (especially in winter)

alfine… reasons; price, rapid fire shifter, cleaner (ss) looking installation. imo.

Thanks all

been using an alfine 8 speed hub on my 29er scandle 32/18 works a treat. tend to ride it like a single speed most of the time but its nice to have the option to change gear on a crazy up or down hill section, I personaly think there the future once the weight has been sorted.

been using an alfine 8 speed hub on my 29er scandle 32/18 works a treat. tend to ride it like a single speed most of the time but its nice to have the option to change gear on a crazy up or down hill section, I personaly think there the future once the weight has been sorted.

I'm waiting to take delivery of an Alfine 8. I can't afford the 11 speed at the mo but if I like the 8, it could be upgraded in a year or two. I agree with the way to use it. Treat it like a SS with the ability to bail you out when needed. I hope the weight isn't too much of an issue, I can't wait to try it.

i've got an alfine 11 on back order, hopefully it will actually be available to use over the winter!

as I understand (if you belive what you read), ratio is equivalant to 11-45 cassette and the way in which it does this is to have 11 distinct gears, as supposed to the rohloff which has 2 x 7 (or something like that), which is why they sometimes drag

of course cost is a big factor, if shimano make it work (can't imagine they'd let it out of the factory until it does) then it will make a lot of sense for a lot of people

Some have mentioned Rohloff's drag.

Having never used a hub gear could you discribe how this drag feels please?

ive since read the comments i read were posted by someone whod done 5000kms on his and expected it to be drag free …

the one i rode does commutes to work 30 so miles most days and hes had it for about 5 or 6 years so i expect its done a **** load more than 5000k – his felt drag free except in the easiest 2 or 3 gears. – is this how they normally feel and the comments ive been reading about drag are from newbe owners ….

midlands trailquest graham to the forum purleeese !

I'm not even sure what this 'drag' that people talk of is. The seals drag a little if freewheeling – you can tell as the cranks rotate slowly when pushing the bike. This is a result of the sealing to keep the crap out I believe.

Also I do believe that there is greater mechanical loss in the system compared to a normal drivetrain with a caveat. If your drivetrain is covered in crap, or you're crossing the chain then I can't imagine that is the case. I have nothing to back this up though, only that you can feel the mechanical parts through the cranks – particularly in some gears when you have all of the gearing engaged.

However I would say that is all besides the point with a Rohloff. I got one for a 'go to' bike. It is always there ready to go and performs the same regardless of the weather and I can stick the bike in the garage and leave it after a ride. I literally do no maintenance to it at all and wear rate on drivetrain parts is very low. A Rohloff is different to a normal drivetrain, I have both and I definitely think there is a place for it. IMO the best set-up is on a SS hardtail, no derailleurs/chain tensioners/chain guides etc, which gives you a bike that is always ready for a ride. If you're sticking it on a race bike then you're likely to be dissapointed.

"mine has been to Germany twice (about every 18 months) to have the bearings changed"

Surprised by this – how many miles do you do and in what sort of conditions? Mine is coming up to five years/10000km(ish) of whatever muck riding year-round in S Wales can throw at it and I've never had the need to do anything but change the oil. Only just onto my second sprocket (although the old one was VERY dead).

To the OP: whilst a Rohloff is not for everyone it is tried and tested technology and the closest you can get to an off-road 'fit and forget' drivetrain. If money no object definitely go for that. Or sit and wait two years and monitor the new Alfine for reliability issues (or not as the case may be).

Surprised by this – how many miles do you do and in what sort of conditions? Mine is coming up to five years/10000km(ish) of whatever muck riding year-round in S Wales can throw at it and I've never had the need to do anything but change the oil. Only just onto my second sprocket (although the old one was VERY dead).

Not all that much riding to be honest, on average probably about 10 hours offroading a week. Rohloff couldn't offer any suggestions as to why the bearings have worn out twice as they reckon they normally go on for years at a time. At first they asked if I had been steam cleaning or jet washing the bike, if you asked my riding buddies this though they would laugh as I virtually never clean my Rohloff bike – when I do it is only a bucket and sponge job. The bearings wore so that there was lateral play in the wheel, obviously as soon as there is any free movement they do a pretty good job of wearing out quickly.

I have a theory though – not sure if it is true or not but……. I have my Hoff on a 29er and perhaps the increased load on the bearings due to the bigger radius wheel wears them out more quickly? I mentioned this to Rohloff but they didn't seem to think that would be the reason.

That said 18 month lifespan to me is more than reasonable for wheel bearing lifetime on a MTB, but according to Rohloff that is not up to scratch so they have been replacing them and servicing the hub for free for me. If I could get Hope bearings to last that amount of time in the same conditions, and then get them replaced for free (including postage) then I would consider that a miracle based on previous experience.

David Jey FYI the bearing thing was discussed on a thread some time ago when it first happened:

http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/rohloff-hub-bearings

I've got both – a 10 year old rohloff on a FS mountain bike, and an Alfine with Versa-8 shifter on an audax/commuter. I've not had a problem with either hub, but the Rohloff has had problems with the shifter cables. The liner can shear and get pulled into the twist grip, causing it to seize. It is a pain to change the cables too – finicky grub screws easily rounded by small hex keys. The shifter box can be as vulnerable as a rear mech hanging below the chainstay and can get knocked.

The Alfine shifting is really smooth by comparison, and even though it only changes one at a time, it's so quick to do 3 or more rapid presses on the trigger it's not a problem. The Alfine doesn't have quick release and it's not as straight forward to get the wheel off.

If my Rohloff were to fail tomorrow, I'd replace it with Alfine 11 speed. The Rohloff is not worth the price difference.

well i bought a well bedded in rohloff at the weekend from a mate – attatched to a thorn raven enduro.

will tell you what its like in 6 weeks when i get to pick it up (im away)

"midlands trailquest graham to the forum purleeese !"
I'm flattered that I am now considered the STW authority on Rohloffs. 😳
The most other Rohloffs I have ever seen at an event was four out of 900 at the Marin Rough Ride and another four out of 2500 at Mountain Mayhem.
I can't remember seeing the same one twice so, as far as I know, I am the only person in the UK regularly racing a Rohloff. I would be happy to be proved wrong.

I've never ridden a Nexus, but a couple of observations from what I've seen…

All hub gears set up a torque reaction in the hub body.
Rohloff overcome this by using a special extended drop out slot or a lever that locates on a peg on the brake mounting.
The further the gearing is from 1:1, the more the torque reaction.
On a Rohloff in 1st gear it is 98% of the input torque in the opposite direction.
Shimano rely on the normal flat sides of a standard dropout.
There's a limit to how much torque these will stand before they round out, which limits the gear range they can use.

The new 11 speed uses helical gears. They are marginally stronger and quieter than straight cut gears, but have more resistance.
This seems a strange choice to me as the biggest complaint about hub gears is the drag, not the noise.

The Rohloff is called a 500/14 because it has got 14 gears with a 500% gear range (14th is 500% higher than 1st).
I think if they made something like a lighter 400/7 it would be more popular for mountain bike racing.
It's a bit of a Catch22 though.
Mountain bikers don't use Rohloffs because, even leaving the price aside, they are not ideal.
Rohloff are not going to develop a more suitable hub, because mountain biking is not a big share of their market.

If someone could come up with a light IGH with a wide spread of ratios, a reasonable number of gears and at a sensible price, I reckon it would take off as an ideal compromise between derailleurs and singlespeed.

What's the gear range on the Shimano 8 and 11 speed hubs ?

If someone could come up with a light IGH with a wide spread of ratios, a reasonable number of gears and at a sensible price, I reckon it would take off as an ideal compromise between derailleurs and singlespeed.

What's the gear range on the Shimano 8 and 11 speed hubs ?

Ergo the interest in first the 8spd Alfine, and now the forthcoming 11spd version… Especially as the weight is now going in the right direction too (though both are still lighter than a Rohloff).

The spread is 307% for the 8spd, and 408% iirc for the upcoming 11spd. The spread on a Rohloff is actually 527%, which compares favourably with the 580% of a "normal" 27 speed setup, meaning a Rohloff provides you with very nearly a full 27spd gear range, whereas the Alfines miss out. The 8spd Alfine is equivalent to running a 1×9 setup gear range wise, the new 11spd will do much more for more people as it will be equivalent to a 2×9 setup in terms of gear range.

For anybody that wants it, I've updated my famous/infamous IGH Gear calculator to include the new 11spd Alfine too (as well as the old 8spd, and the Rohloff, and other hub gears). If you want it, just drop me an email (in my profile), and I'll email it back to you later on today…

It's rare that I use the top 3 gears, other than the road sections on trailquests or long days out joining up bridleways with road riding.
408/11 sounds perfectly adequate for off road use.
If it turns out to be as promising as it sounds, I can see it becoming very popular for 12 and 24 hour marathons.
My only concern is the torque reaction and the hub only locating in the dropout slots with no seperate torque lever.
I'm sure Shimano will have taken that in to account though.

"There aren't that many ways a Rohloff can fail and leave you with nothing. In fact there is only one that I have heard of actually happening and that is shearing the nylon shear pins – although if you do that it is likely because you're using the hub outside of its specification, those pins are designed to shear in order to protect the hub."

A broken spoke flange won't take long to leave you with nothing – I know someone who has had this happen twice.

"There aren't that many ways a Rohloff can fail and leave you with nothing. In fact there is only one that I have heard of actually happening and that is shearing the nylon shear pins – although if you do that it is likely because you're using the hub outside of its specification, those pins are designed to shear in order to protect the hub."

A broken spoke flange won't take long to leave you with nothing – I know someone who has had this happen twice.

Can't that happen with a normal hub too? Does that leave it not functioning at all (I genuinely don't know)?

Yes, but at around a £1000 for a Rohloff hub and with them being sold as almost maintenance free and ideal for world tours and tandems, people expect better.
If you break a normal hub, no matter where you are in the world, you won't be far from a suitable replacement.
A replacement Rohloff hub has to be posted out from Germany.
I don't think it's a common problem, but there are a few stories and pictures on the web.
A Rohloff hub flange is one of the few things I have never broken on a bike.
It can only be a matter of time.

I'd be inclined to go for the Alfine 11 on the basis that the gears are arranged pretty evenly either side of 1:1. Being Shimano as well there's almost certainly going to be a wider support network and more chance of getting parts / replacements in a pinch. I'd like them to offer 48H versions for heavy duty cargo bike use and they should really give you stuff like the non-rotating washers with the hub (cheeky devils).

Yes, but at around a £1000 for a Rohloff hub and with them being sold as almost maintenance free and ideal for world tours and tandems, people expect better.
If you break a normal hub, no matter where you are in the world, you won't be far from a suitable replacement.
A replacement Rohloff hub has to be posted out from Germany.
I don't think it's a common problem, but there are a few stories and pictures on the web.
A Rohloff hub flange is one of the few things I have never broken on a bike.
It can only be a matter of time.

I agree but my point is about the number of failure modes that leave it totally unusable, which as far as I am aware is not many. I suppose it depends on how remote your tour is or what kind of country it is but there might not be too much difference in getting a hub sent out and having to source 'normal' bits. I have read, mostly on the Rohloff site, that they have sent out hubs for free to people while on long distance remote tours. I cannot imagine any other drivetrain part company doing that, try getting Shimano to send you a new Alfine hub to the middle of Africa. No way.

They're not perfect, I've talked about my experiences on other threads but I still think they are the best drivetrain choice for reliability and lack of required maintenance.