I was driving down the M6 between J15 and J14 on Tuesday and saw the aftermath of an accident in which, I guess, somebody was killed. The air ambulance had just taken off and there was debris of a couple of cars and a trailer on the hard shoulder and lane 1. The police had halted all the northbound traffic.

Later that evening at about 11 I was coming north up the M6 and saw signs that the road was still closed northbound between the junctions.

Every day on the radio you hear of a motorway being closed for police investigation work, which usually manages to span the time between two rush hours.

Why do they need to treat every single accident as if it was a murder enquiry? We already know what causes accidents. We know the driver at fault only gets a slap on the wrists. Do they think if they take enough photos and measurements the dead man will come back to life?

…and don’t get me started on traffic lights on roundabouts…

If it were my loved one laying dead I’d be more worried about the how and why of their death than a few other people being inconvienced on their way to work.

And the the Traffic Wombles appear and close the motorway at Rush hour to retrieve a lost door mirror.

Health & Safety, its easier and safer to close the road while taking measurements and evidence at the scene of a fatal accident.

how and why of their death

Car Crash. Everything else is just padding.

Stotchegg – ‘bullet in the head’ is a cause of death but it doesn’t mean there isn’t further investigation as to how it happened…

Must admit, it’d be interesting to know exactly what they achieve – how often do they secure a conviction that otherwise would be impossible, for example ?

And the the Traffic Wombles appear and close the motorway at Rush hour to retrieve a lost door mirror.

Of course, you could just leave the door mirror lying there, a car might drive over it and flick it up into the windscreen of the car alongside, smashing the windscreen and taking out the driver which in turn causes a loss of control and a car careering across a carriageway taking out 3 other vehicles in the process.

🙄

Did you see the documentary they did a while ago about investigation work into an accident which had killed a cyclist? Very thorough and they managed to establish that the driver had been 100% at fault which got him convicted – without that work a killer driver would have escaped scot free.

BigJohn you are a cold heartless bastid.

You could always read:

http://www.acpo.police.uk/asp/policies/Data/road_death_investigation_manual_18x12x07.pdf

“This manual adheres to the principle that all fatal collisions should be investigated as ‘unlawful killings’ until the contrary is proved.”

It’s just jcn 15

They have the closure of the M6 there on a regular loop, every other day – or something like that

All they need is a big laser camera (don’t know if they exist yet, that may be one of the things I remember from when I was in the future) some heavy lifting equipment stationed ready for action every 40 miles along motorways, a bloody big hose, some steel sheet for covering burnt asphalt, some bolt cutters for opening the barriers to make a temporary contraflow, and some screens.

Half hour max.

And paralysing the country is more important than providing an explanation (that still isn’t going to bring the loved one back) to the bereaved.

Scruff – I might be a heartless bastid, but I’m not cold. Last week I was only wearing a base-layer (inside out as well, so it would wick the moisture back in) and you were wrapped up like a wuss.

Did you see the documentary they did a while ago about investigation work into an accident which had killed a cyclist?

Yes, but how long do they need to close a road for to gather sufficient evidence form it? How much of that thorough investigation actually took place with the road closed?

OP and sympathisers, you are coming across as right tools.

you are coming across as right tools.

Because it’s not reasonable to question anything like this? Is that what we’re now reduced to in this country (or on this forum), being accused of being heartless because we’re not into recreational grieving?

And paralysing the country is more important than providing an explanation (that still isn’t going to bring the loved one back) to the bereaved.

No but the investigation might take a dangerous driver off the road that could otherwise go on to kill again… maybe someone in your family

accused of being heartless because we’re not into recreational grieving

well, no one’s acccusing you of being recreationally considerate and altruistic.

accused of being heartless because we’re not into recreational grieving?

Nothing to do with that – it’s a simple point (and made already): if it was your loved one killed in the RTA, would you be happy if the state provided you with “he/she was killed in an RTA, we CBA investigating it because we don’t want to make the public late for the pub etc”.

cynic-al – Member

OP and sympathisers, you are coming across as right tools.

That one’s going straight into my trophy cabinet.

Last week I was only wearing a base-layer

Plus your natural faux fur coat. Its thicker than the one on my old Chow Collie.

crazy-legs – the point is you don’t have to close the entire motorway to retrieve an item from the carriageway. A rolling roadblock, or even a dash across like the coning boys have to.

Instead there is full closure; H&S and Risk assessment before anyone gets out of their Shogun.

Apologies for not spelling this out in the simplest terms earlier. I thought it was obvious.

Not all crashes are total accidents. Sometimes someone will swerve into someone, brake-test etc etc and it can be classed as deliberate.

Sometimes such deliberate moves can result in a fatality. I’ve no problem being held up if the Police investigators could gather enough evidence to collar the person.

In addition/on the flipside (H&S)- down the M62 round darkened unlit bends you get road workers legging it across to the central reservation carrying sign holders BIGGER than them. A few times I’ve come across them and 😯

A death on the highway needs full investigation and this can take hours. Thats just they way it is.

As for the closure to retrieve debris? Would you go on a motorway with traffic still running?

So to the OP. Get real. A death and you want no investigation?

*shakes head sadly*

BigJohn – Member

That one’s going straight into my trophy cabinet.

You’re proud that I assumed you were stupid enough to be serious?

Because some one is or could be dead, and someone could be going to prison for a long time, and the evidence can only be collected once, so it needs to be done right first time.

And why does the air ambulance always seem to land on the other carriageway, closing the motorway?

I’ll never curse anyone holding me up as you never know the circumstances. Someone could have crashed avoiding an idiots driving meaning they were totally innocent.

We all hear of the people passing crashes and laughing/cursing them and taking pictures (idiots).

And why does the air ambulance always seem to land on the other carriageway, closing the motorway?

Because the bloody rubberneckers on the other carriageway often cause additional accidents which then tie up even more resources. Having a helicopter land on the accident carriageway is a sure fire way to cause a mass pile up on the other side as everyone leans out to watch.

Maybe if people actually drove sensibly there’d be far fewer accidents in the first place. Same if the police enforced the law, if sentencing of driving offences was stricter rather than “oh you’re banned for a few weeks, do try not to get behind the wheel but if you do we probably won’t catch you anyway”

BJ, my wife drives that section of M-way every day, so knows the lunacy of some of the drivers quite well – the Porsche Boxster driver who tried to force her off the carriageway for one. So while her journey home is often doubled in length, she curses the knob who is a fault, not the police & emergency services doing their job in a hostile environment. Next time it happens, throw a half full bottle of piss out of your car at them whilst they work, you sound like that is something that you’d do to vent your anger at them.

You don’t drive a white van do you?

[edit] Air ambulances are usually involved in saving someones life. That is what they’re there for. Only a real tool would get grumpy at the sight of an air ambulance [edit]

if only we could paralyse half the country….

A 23 mile section of the A1 was closed this morning.
http://news.stv.tv/scotland/east-central/204055-body-found-behind-pub-in-east-lothian/

Porsche Boxster driver

I once witnessed a Merc driver who forced his way into lane 3 from the slip road.

I don’t think he understood that you have to be prepared to STOP on the sliproad and you don’t have a go-given right to join the motorway and force a Kia to take severe avoiding action (he basically swung his car broadside to make the other drive jump a lane).

Amazed the Kia driver didn’t flip 😯

BIgJohn, you live in Stafford, I thought all the locals lovded traffic lights on roundabouts, we have so many!!

I have seen road closures in the highlands – there is only two roads that run north / south so if one is closed its one heck of a detour round.

However – clearly the OP is so important and so is his errand that nothing must be allowed to hold him up on his important journeys

if only we could paralyse half the country….

Those sodding TalkTalk adverts on the XFactor could send out death rays set to stun.

Thank you for letting it descend into personal insults. It wouldn’t feel like home on STW without them.

I’m not complaining about being held up myself. It’s very rarely happend, fortunately. But I do feel sorry for people whose holidays are ruined because they miss flights etc. and for the huge cost of such delays to the economy as a whole.

I am questioning the need to investigate for hours and hours. I find it hard to believe that there have ever been a case where the evidence gathered at hour 5 has contradicted the evidence gathered in the first 15 minutes, and in such a way as to alter the outcome of a trial.

I’m not complaining about being held up myself

Epic FAIL, BUSTED and PWNED all in one.

I find it hard to believe that there have ever been a case where the evidence gathered at hour 5 has contradicted the evidence gathered in the first 15 minutes, and in such a way as to alter the outcome of a trial.

Let me guess, you are not an investigator?

and the answer is:

http://www.acpo.police.uk/asp/policies/Data/road_death_investigation_manual_18x12x07.pdf

“This manual adheres to the principle that all fatal collisions should be investigated as ‘unlawful killings’ until the contrary is proved.”

Posted for a 2nd time.

Investigating an unlawful killing is a slow and meticulous process….

I would imagine that if they had a quick walkaround for 15 mins then went to court then any possible case would last about the same length of time. Maybe what this country really needs is a proper public transport system so that all those gottadrivers could use that instead. I really don’t understand why so many people feel the need to drive everywhere all the time.

I find it hard to believe that there have ever been a case where the evidence gathered at hour 5 has contradicted the evidence gathered in the first 15 minutes

….could you gather all the evidence in 15 mins? If you think you can then may I suggest you’re not thinking hard enough?
A conviction of causing death by dangerous driving gets you slightly more than a slap on the wrists.