I have a couple of quotes already (one crazy high one and one very reasonable) but does anyone have any recommendations for sash window refurbishers or makers in London?
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Refurb/Renew sash windows in London - recommendations?
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Posted 1 year ago #
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We had our whole house done by these guys: sash window workshop
Beautiful work; 3 years on and they look absolutely amazing - I have no doubt they will last for a hundred years, like the ones they replaced.
Crazy expensive though.
Dave
Posted 1 year ago # -
I work for a company that does doors & windows (in the IT dept). http://www.premdor.co.uk - our products are available from many good builders' merchants
Posted 1 year ago # -
Ernie Lynch off here is a proper carpenter, and he lives just outside London, in Croydon.
He'll be able to advise, I'm sure.
Posted 1 year ago # -
I live in N16 and had some done 2-3 years ago by (I think) London Sash Window Company based up in Barnet i think. Google will help i'm sure. £1,800 per sash and £4,500 per three sided bay and i think VAT was on top so appallingly pricey but i justified it by thinking that the cost probably increased the house value by the same amount as these open properly, have double glazing and obviously aren't 110 yrs old with bits of rot and so on. House has been warmer and quieter for it so if you have a nice period house i would do it. Post war will probably look OK with UPVC. IMO.
Posted 1 year ago # -
Ernie Lynch off here is a proper carpenter, and he lives just outside London, in Croydon
Yes but unfortunately I live in the 21st century, not the Victorian era.
The only thing I will say is that box sash windows are ridiculously labour intensive to construct, compared to other simpler designs. As alfabus has undoubtedly found out. Although I would be very surprised if all the box sash windows in one house actually need to be replaced - they can easily last 100 plus years. New cords, parting beads, staff beads, and old paint burnt off, is almost always the most which needs to be done. None of which should be particularly time-consuming or expensive.
Posted 1 year ago # -
Not in London, but the nicest replacement sash windows I've seen are
If it's refurb, and you can find a skilled tradesman with patience to get them right, most of the bits you'll need can be had to bring them up to a modern standard of draughtproofing can be had from
I was in the less happy position of buying a house where the sliding bits had already been ripped out and 70s alu frames jammed in badly, and not being in a posh area or massively rich (wooden windows round here would devalue the house rather than increase like in gentrified areas). So we went with
Which may not last the hundred years, but six years in and they are as good as new. Cheap as chips(relatively) but look the part, and work well too.
Posted 1 year ago # -
If it's refurb, and you can find a skilled tradesman with patience.....
TBH, most of it is well within the scope of someone with basic DIY skills imo. Unless it involves splicing/scarfing timber. The hardest task I guess is changing the sash cords, but that's no big deal - you just need to make yourself a mouse out of a length of string and a small lead weight, then just take your time making certain the cord is the right length. Parting beads are easily replaced, and staff beads just need a simple mitre. But before doing that, burn/strip off all the old paint.
Posted 1 year ago # -
Forgive me for being ignorant on this, but wouldn't a more modern type of window be more heat efficient? Aren't sash windows a bit draughty?
Posted 1 year ago # -
>Unless it involves splicing/scarfing timber
Been there, got t-shirt ! - rebuilt the 4 sashes in the bay of our old place - took a fair while tho', I'm an engineer rather than a chippy...but at least it was nice n accurate
Wound up having refurbasash (twickenham) reinstate the upper bay window and bathroom window, and refurbish two other sashes upstairs - and they *did* a good job of the lot.
But..the OH in her infinite wisdom (and playing the 'I've got the money to pay for it so I will card) then got them to replace my carefully installed parting beeds on the ones I'd done somes year before the brush/rattle free jobbies, and add hardware to match the others. Admittedly it was probably painted in well, but I'm pretty sure a few careful taps with a hammer or using a stanley knife to break the paint would have done it, the bloody idiot managed to generate a whole lot of splintering along the side of the channel the bead sat in, in getting it out. I was not a happy bunny...
>Aren't sash windows a bit draughty?
They can be installed with brushed sections to stop rattles/drafts - but - even before they were done - we didn't really notice that much in the way of drafts anyway - certainly not when you've a curtain pulled over. And never suffered from condensation, for that matterThe heat-inefficient bit is really the glazing - wood's a good insulator.
Other thing is - sashes *look* right - my pet hate is upvc, to have any strength it's bulky, it's supposed to be maintenance free but stil suffers from staining (or at least, the stuff on the back of our current place does, and it's absolute rubbish re security. But it's cheap so people fit it. In ourClose (built 1926) - some still have the original wood frames/steel frame/leaded light Crittals (as we do on he front of the house. Now those *are* cold ! - but most most people in the road have just ripped the whole lot out (including woodwork) for crappy upvc - whereas the old crittals are a lot more elegant. Crittall still exists, and you can buy replacements - double glazed units - to retrofit - but people seem to be too ignorant to see past the upvc crap.
Posted 1 year ago # -
Some places you have to have wooden sash and case windows - I do in my building. Listed building
Posted 1 year ago # -
Forgive me for being ignorant on this, but wouldn't a more modern type of window be more heat efficient? Aren't sash windows a bit draughty?
yes, but...
Some places you have to have wooden sash and case windows - I do in my building. Listed building
Ours isn't a listed building but it is in a conservation area so we have to keep the sash design and ideally the same materials (wood) too.
The windows actually work pretty well (apart from the one that's painted shut) but they're a bit draughty and noisy and as a minimum we'd want to put in double glazing. This might just mean replace the sashes if the frame is in a decent state.
Our expensive quote is I think from the Sash Window Workshop or London Sash Window Company or similar and is in line with your quote hh45.
I've heard the "it will increase the value of your house" line before and I'm not sure I buy it. I don't think I would pay an extra 10 grand (or more) for a flat with new sash windows in it.Posted 1 year ago # -
eckinspain - wheras to me a set of refurbished or new sashes does increase the value and uPVC takes £10 000 off the value
Not as much increaee in value as you would spend on them however
If anyone wants sealed double glazed sash units there is a firnm in /Edinburgh who will make them - sealed units that will go in a conventional sash
Posted 1 year ago # -
Some places you have to have wooden sash and case windows
Forgive me, but despite initially ignoring it, I'm slightly irritated by unnecessarily slack laymen talk. The sash is the part of the window which the glass sits in, it is not a type of window.......casement windows also have sashes. And although I've googled it, I don't know what a "case window" is, I can only assume that it's a term used in Scotland for casement windows.
Aren't sash windows a bit draughty?
I once worked with a carpenter who was something of a dab hand in constructing box sash (or sliding sash) windows, he strongly believed that properly constructed, British box sash windows were the best in the world. I personally would despute that, but when compared to the other alternative, British casement windows, then I guess it might be true.
British casement windows are imo, a completely absurd idea, hinged on the fact that they open outwards. They make box sash windows, with all their impracticalities of needing regular maintenance, actually seem like a good idea - I guess that's why box sash windows were invented.
Having a window opening outwards is a really stupid idea. It makes them highly susceptible to getting caught in the wind - leading to the risk of damage, there is an exposed gap around the sash which makes them highly susceptible to water ingress and therefore rotting, the metal hinges are exposed to the elements and therefore susceptible to seizing and corrosion, when left open, any rain which falls on the end-grain of the sash jambs is very likely to penetrate and therefore again, risks causing rotting, and finally, if they are anywhere other than the ground floor, they require a ladder to clean the exterior of them (unless you use parliament hinges, in which case they are a nightmare in themselves)
All in all, a crap idea which is only tolerated because of the British obsession with curtains. And for almost identical reasons, the British idea of having external back doors which open outwards, is also a crap idea. In this case, it's mostly done to allow more areas inside the room for furniture. Having said that, the above shortcomings of outward opening windows have now been almost totally overcome by the hideous plastic monstrosities which it has now become fashionable to install.
EDIT : your link doesn't appear to be working mefty ?
Posted 1 year ago # -
IMO those modern sash windows are just as ugly as the casement types. And I prefer large uninterrupted panes; more light, neater looking than little panes.
Posted 1 year ago # -
Thank you for pointing out, Ernie, and the lesson in the relative merits of various windows and doors.
Posted 1 year ago # -
ventrolla did all ours, 9 sills replaced, all new sash cords and fittings, a few new lower bars and 3 glass panes (Polish float glass),
all have ventrollas brush seals and are a doddle to take out in around
2 mins with no tools by yourself, would recommend them highly.and no sashes are not drafty but as mentioned the glass is a little on the thin side, but who cares, they have lasted 95 years and i would rather have draft than inhale the carcogenic fumes emitted from petro chemical crap like plastic, oh and they look nice
Posted 1 year ago # -
thanks mefty and skiboy - I'll get in touch with them both.
Posted 1 year ago # -
When we had our whole house done, they only fitted 2 complete windows (because the uprights were too rotten to repair), the rest of the windows had new sashes and a couple of them had new cills.
Like ernie_lynch said, they last for 100s of years if cared for properly; ours needed major work because they hadn't been cared for.
As for draughtiness... rubbish - these windows are brilliant! beautifully made, smooth sliding and no draughts at all; they are all double glazed and give plenty of insulation.
Our most expensive window was the living room Venetian sash (large central sash with smaller fixed sashes either side - only the inner sash opens, controlled by cords at the side of the whole window), about 2m by 2m, cost about £3.5k.
The rest of the windows were ~£1k each, for new sashes and refurbishment of the boxes. The other complete new window (upstairs bathroom) was ~£1.5k.
I don't seem to have any recent pictures, but here is one just after the big window was fitted, and plastering was in progress:
Dave
Edit: just checked the cost of the big window... less than i remembered (3.5k rather than 5k)
Posted 1 year ago # -
Our most expensive window was the living room Venetian sash
I sincerely hope you had it fitted with nylon sash cords, rather than traditional hemp sash cords. Because changing a sash cord on that, isn't something which you would want to do very often. Not only does it involve pulling most of it apart, but afterwards, the complete repainting of the window. Looks nice though
Posted 1 year ago # -
yeah, they are nylon - plus some heavier metal for the weights (need to be heavier than the originals because of the sealed units).
Not actually that much of a faff to change the cords, they built semi-removable panels in to the tops of the side sections, so that the cords and weights can be accessed, plus the brush strips can all be unclipped and removed to help repainting. Classic, with a sprinkling of modern materials and thinking.
Blew our budget, but I don't regret it at all; the house next door has standard sized PVC windows - they didn't even use the whole window aperture, just bricked it up and clad the whole wall - looks like an horrendous 50's monstrosity compared to our pretty Victorian terrace.
Dave
Posted 1 year ago # -
ernie - picky picky
Round here they are often known as sash and case windows I think.
Based in Edinburgh, The Edinburgh Window Company Limited manufacture the highest quality of sash and case windows to our customers throughout Midlothian. We manufacture windows from either redwood or hardwood, with the following brass ironmongery as standard: Pulley wheels, Fitch catch and Ring pulls.
We provide sash and case windows in double or single glazing
http://www.edinburghsashandcase.co.uk/
Dinnae be so anglocentric old chap
Posted 1 year ago # -
Ernielynch: Inward opening sashes let water into the frame which therefore need drain holes, so ok for Alu, Upvc and rot-resistant hardwoods (e.g. Utile etc) but rubbish for softwood windows.
Sash and case windows are great; as long as someone else renovates them...I've done 3 whole houses this Autumn (total 34 windows!) and don't care if I ever see another one.
-Casements: Usually only the front half of the cill rots (and sometimes the first 6" of the pulleystiles/sides). This can be replaced by any competent joiner: Always put a DPC underneath as stone sucks up water like a sponge and will release it into the wood as it dries.
-Sashes: Bottom rails often rot, but can be replaced; if sash stiles (sides) are soft then get new sash made (I would charge about £275 a sash).
Use a funkey sander like my Festool one (£350!) to remove paint with 40 grit paper Pretty damn good dust extraction on this guy, but wear a mask!
-Route in draught beads if you like, but remember if your painter is a thicko, thats them knackered.
-Don't let gloss paint go near them: This stuff was invented by the paint industry to keep joiners in a job!! Use 1 coat Butinox 2 followed by 1 or 2 of Butinox 3.
-Lastly: Wood hardeners and the like are a complete waste of time!Oh, the last lot I did (in 'Embra) was about £1800 for 8 windows.
Posted 1 year ago # -
1800 for 8 windows! Fancy a trip to London?
Posted 1 year ago # -
Yep, that included painting...I'm crap at this pricing lark, me thinks!! Took another 2 years off my life, so must turn down your kind offer!! Job was 1 mile from my workshop, so handy for just machining a quick bit here or there; London, not so handy!!
Posted 1 year ago # -
Can't help you with a recommendation in London but we had ours done by a local building company who subbed a carpenter. We spent something like £1200 per window (we had 15 8O) got them manufactured in a local wordwork place, went round met the owner, looked at some un painted in production ones asked him questions. We specced our own glass. If you are getting them properly built it s worth thinking about specifying your own requirements for glass. Have a browse through the pilkington website but you can do much better than standard K glass. Can't remember exactly what we got in the end. Warm edge spacer bars were in there and optitherm coating?
They are fantastic. Sealed perfectly, not at all drafty, much quieter and made a noticable differene to heating. We'd have to have been burning tenners before to ever get our money back though.
Anyway whoever you pick don't go for Everest they are a bunch of Cleggs. Worst company I've ever had the misfortune of dealing with.
Posted 1 year ago # -
Slimlite is the company TJ was refering to: They make double glazed units, Argon filled, low profile spacers and as thin as 10mm so they can be puttied into a normal sliding sash. they claim they almost as thermally efficient as thicker units.
Cost about £450/msq and I would worry about water eventually penetrating the putty seal and knackering the unit; units don't like their edges immersed.Posted 1 year ago # -
Ernielynch: Inward opening sashes let water into the frame which therefore need drain holes, so ok for Alu, Upvc and rot-resistant hardwoods (e.g. Utile etc) but rubbish for softwood windows.
Yep, softwood windows are pretty rubbish. But I wouldn't even consider a window which didn't have at least a hardwood sill - I wouldn't expect a softwood sill to last any time at all. Actually if properly designed and constructed, there is little chance of inward opening windows letting in water......you obviously don't simply have a casement window which just "opens the other way". For example the bottom rail of the sash needs to be rebated so it sits over sill, and be sloping with a drip so that any rainwater running down the window is simply deflected off and has no possibility of entering. Of course even with that and all necessary grooves which form vacuums to stop water ingress, it is still a good idea to have some drainage holes. But the issue of inward opening windows is very easily resolved - with loads of very practical advantages. Just take quick trip over to Calais, there you will not find a single outward opening window, despite the fact that it sometimes rains in Calais.
Posted 1 year ago # -
we are up in the midlands, generally the cost of making a new box sash is around 1000 plus VAT, if they are in a bad state it can cost nearly as much to restore them, we have done some in the past that really needed new ones but the customers have wanted them restoring. Once restored and in working order they are great windows. The main downfall of them is people just keep painting them on top of the old paint instead of burning them off. Then they end up painted shut, the paint gets that thick and flakes off or cracks and the water get under it, then it gets the sun on it and they start at rott.
if burnt back and repainted when needed they should last 100 yearsPosted 1 year ago # -
Any idea why I can't see the whole of this thread?
Posted 1 year ago # -
eh 31 posts?
id really liek to know actually as we are also in london and wanted ours done
can we get em double glazed more to the point!?
Posted 1 year ago # -
We had our old sash frames reglazed with double glazed units. Worked out about 25% of the cost of replacement. Well worth it. I don't get woken up by people walking past in the night any more. I am well away from the smoke so although I would recomend the guy that did ours, I don't think he would travel, but it can be done and works well.
Posted 1 year ago # -
A few other threads are losing posts too.
Posted 1 year ago # -
I do have a posting on here for when it reappears, but if you google Quickslide for cheap but good looking replacements, Ventrolla for getting a man in to refurb or Reddiseals for all the seals, pulleys, beads etc for all the bits needed if you were doing it yourself.
Posted 1 year ago #
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