What's self-important about pointing out the dedication some artists display to their music? If you're having trouble grasping the concept, how about imagining a picture that an artist has spent years working on, slaving away in a garret somewhere, versus a paint-by-numbers job that someone has knocked out in an afternoon? All other things being equal, which is going to be more interesting? Unless you're totally mired in inverse snobbery that is. 😉

It's simply the difference between art and product – not everyone 'gets it' and nothing posted here will really make them change their minds, best just to smile knowingly and walk away………

Music is very f^&*ing important to me though.

So the music made by Steps can't be important to their audience?

how about imagining a picture that an artist has spent years working on, slaving away in a garret somewhere, versus a paint-by-numbers job that someone has knocked out in an afternoon?

Right – I have imagined that. And I have imaged the response the two works of art got and they were both enjoyed by the people for whom the art was created so each has its own merit.

I am simply saying that ALL music is important – none deserves more adulation than other, irrespective of what anyone thinks about a particular genre or reason for creating that music, if it is enjoyed by a single person then it is as important as the next piece of music.

No one told anyone to buy anything? Simon Cowell sure didnt tell me to buy Joe Mcelderrys record, and no one told me to buy RATM. Stop being so cynical.

none deserves more adulation than other

Well, music is a human achievement and like any other, you can rate it according to how difficult or inspiring it is. You don't have to, but it adds another dimension to something that's often already entertaining. So, for example, I'd compare the effort, vision and dedication that went into something like "Sleeping Beauty" by Sun Ra to an unsupported ascent of K2, whereas "5-6-7-8" by Steps is more like someone driving to the top of Richmond Hill. In an SUV. 🙂

But why on earth does it need to be taken seriously? Music is music is music. If anyone thinks some combination of musical notes and instruments are somehow more important than others, they have a misguided sense of what is important in life.

That's a scary leap of logic to assume that, because some music is intended to be taken seriously as art, then it automatically promotes itself as having higher intrinsic value than music that intends itself to entertain or make money. Be careful there.

I have a more simplistic notion of how I relate to music – I am more than happy to find different things in music or other media at different times. Sometimes, i leap around the dancefloor at weddings, and will do it to anything that has a good bear, I can singalong to, and other people seem to be enjoying. Other times, I sit in my living room, don't make a sound and derive a completely different pleasure from the way that notes and sound conjoin and interact.

Neither are invalid on their own, or even in their own context. What we may wish to concern ourselves with is the extent to which the context moves and is moved beyond art or entertainment or money to having a wider socio-political effect. You can, of course, assume that you are an island, M-f, but by stating that you consider experience to be devoid of context in any wider form is necessarily demonstrating that you don't.

I can't say that I have found the case for RATM any more compelling than the case against McEldry and/or Simon Cowell. Charlie Brooker has tried to claim it's one in the eye for choice and people and enlivening our Christmas experience. I don't doubt the validity of any of those things. It's just that, exactly as claiming music is no more than a series of notes with no lasting significance, for me it's too ephemeral to be concerned about; it's too simplistic and doesn't really take me anywhere I haven't already been.

Burial's reply was that he didn't mind, as long as people were hearing the music.

He can relax, because the people love him. If Brian Eno had been a junglist, and not a member of Roxy Music, Apollo would have been written about the late-night sadness of McDonalds, as opposed to NASA missions. Genius music.

Ourmaninthnorth = STW's psychiatrist. It's like listening to the moral maze…

Glad to see this thread hasn't ascended up it's own ar$e in record time.

Sometimes, i leap around the dancefloor at weddings, and will do it to anything that has a good bear,

Dancing Bears, don't see many around these days…

That's a scary leap of logic to assume that, because some music is intended to be taken seriously as art, then it automatically promotes itself as having higher intrinsic value than music that intends itself to entertain or make money. Be careful there.

I was responding to things others had said. I am saying that music is all valid. From the cheesiest pop to the most obscure piece of experimental music. Everything has its own value. I don't see why any music can ever be considered as being more important than the next because every piece is made for its own particular reason. Well that is my view anyway.

Yeah stick it to the man!

Become part of a subversive movement that has helped line Cowells pockets – twice!

How many of the RATM camp don't normally buy singles at all, and really GAS about what is Xmas number one?

Thread closed.

These kind of good dancing bears?

Christmas dancing bears

Become part of a subversive movement that has helped line Cowells pockets – twice!

I shall repeat what has been said SO MANY TIMES.

You are missing the point 😀

helped line Cowells pockets – twice!

why twice?

why twice?

The X factor winner is signed to SyCo, Simon Cowell's record label which is owned by Sony BMG, who also own the rights to RATM's back catalogue, and with whom Mr Cowell undoubtedly owns shares

I agree with not having x factor so close to christmas, that is so obvious a setup.

But I don't see why it couldn't have been a current english band chosen, The guy from RATM bleating on about the British youth voting for proper music. He should have said "cheers for the cash" yes I know that there donating a large sum but it will still be a tidy sum for doing f all

The next cause should be forcing ITV to move the show

I am I the only one who bought both then?

I am simply saying that ALL music is important – none deserves more adulation than other, irrespective of what anyone thinks about a particular genre or reason for creating that music, if it is enjoyed by a single person then it is as important as the next piece of music.

What PC nonsense that is. So Radiohead have no more musical worth than Bewitched? Because someone, somewhere like Bewitched! People that drag that argument out usually don't love music too much. "Yes Paul, but it's subjective isn't?" Bah, there IS good and bad music. Music lovers would agree.

Has it been mentioned that (at least one memeber of) RATM are MTBers?
http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=171799
That has made me even happier for some reason.

I've not read every word in this thread but can't really see that anyone has stated what the point was?

A big F off to SC…. SC has shares in Sony BMG. So is getting paid whatever you buy. This 'stunt' will no doubt have increased sales of the X factor record too, SC say 'ching ching'.

Yeah lets get a campaign going to move x-factor. Was it around half a million people who bought this single?? Did around 18 million watch the x factor final. Come on we've almost over thrown SC's dominance!

I prefer this version anyway….

my god there really are (in the words of Alan partridge)some 'mentalists' on this forum!

This 'stunt' will no doubt have increased sales of the X factor record too

Except Surfr already pointed out, which you couldn't be bothered reading, that isn't true.

Surfr – Member

Alexandra sold 576,000 in the first week (Christmas) in 2008. Joe sold 450,838. Lean to google, troll

So Radiohead have no more musical worth than Bewitched?

I think they write music that is better in my subjective view. I don't think they write music that is any more important – this has been my point all along – some people like Radiohead, some like Bewitched, others like Handel. No one piece of music should be taken any more seriously than the next. But as I have said before, that is only my view.

People that drag that argument out usually don't love music too much.

Of course. 😕

People keep going on about how much Sony made (which isn't the point). But can I point out that even if Sony saw 40p from every download – we're still looking at just over £200,000 contributing to an annual revenue of £2.8 billion.

Relatively speaking, it's hardly lining what are some seriously stretched pockets.

Graham S – How do you know how many it would've sold this year without the RATM stunt?

I'm no fan of either x factor artist, but it can be argued that Alexandra is a more comercially viable artist. I think that STW forum member should vote on whether they'd be more likely to buy lsat years or this years x factor records… 5 mins whilst I set up a premium rate phone line…

I'm no fan of either x factor artist, but it can be argued that Alexandra is a more comercially viable artist.

True, but it could also be argued that this year's X Factor had much larger viewing figures than last years so more people should be interested.

By supporting a huge campaign to stop the X Factor single becoming the Christmas number one, all those punters have shown how little they care about the X Factor, and how unimportant the show is to them.

Another way might be to just not watch the show. All these people who claim to not care about it are doing is boosting the show's profile and popularity. The business interests behind both pop groups must be laughing themselves silly at the mug punters. There's an old saying about there being no such thing as bad publicity.

I think the 'no publicity is bad publicity' thing is a bit glib and very easily wheeled out without any consideration (too many examples, Tiger woods, Kerry Katona, Gordon Brown etc… etc…). I don't really feel like a 'mug punter' i made a purchasing decision based on my own reason. I felt 79p to be a fair deal in order to help make a valid point, which has been the case. I have no problem with the corporation of Sony music. Good luck to them. They often release good music and reward musicians. Thats how life kind of works. I don't feel particularly 'trapped in a system'. Right to buy, right to vote, right to speak. I think it's the people in countries who don't have these choices that you need to be speaking to.

I think the 'no publicity is bad publicity' thing is a bit glib and very easily wheeled out without any consideration

Sometimes yes, but not in cases like these. Shows such as the X-Factor thrive on any sort of publicity as that's what gets them on the front pages of the tabloids, which are read by the bulk of their target audience.

The Mr Oizo remix is even better…

There are truly a lot of miserable gits on this forum.

The hole thing behind this was a good laugh at having RATm as xmas No.1.
Mission succeeded as far as I can see.
Beyond that who gives a crap about the money (other than that going to shelter – good work).

Some of you need to get proper lives or remove your heads from your own arses (note. may need assistance)

I want to get Joe McDangleberry to the #1 spot next year. that would really **** things up 🙂

The real trick would be getting something like Marduk's Fistf**king God's Planet to next years Xmas No1.

as every other internet smartarse pointed out, both tracks are owned by Sony BMG – so no matter which one sells the most, Simon Cowell wins. In other words, even by raging against the machine, you're somehow raging within it.

But profit isn't the point – or at least it's not the reason I downloaded it. For one thing, I happen to think Killing in the Name is an excellent song, so I've already got something out of it. Most importantly, it contains genuine emotion. Even if the climactic repeated howls of "**** you, I won't do what you tell me!" put you in mind of a teenager loudly refusing to tidy his bedroom – as opposed to a masked anarchist hurling petrol bombs at the riot squad – there is at least an authentic human sentiment being expressed. Zack de la Rocha is audibly pissed off.

Compare this to the pissweak vocal doodle that is Joe McElderry's X Factor single. For a song whose lyrics ostensibly document an attempt to gather the spiritual strength to overcome adversity and thereby attain enlightenment, The Climb is about as inspiring as a Lion bar. It's a listless announcement on a service station Tannoy; an advert for buttons; a fart in a clinic; a dot on a spreadsheet. Listening to it from beginning to end is like watching a bored cleaner methodically wiping a smudge from a Formica worksurface.

But then nobody's buying The Climb in order to actually listen to it. They're buying it out of sedated confusion, pushing a button they've been told will make them feel better. It's the sound of the assisted suicide clinic, and it doesn't deserve to be No 1 this Christmas.

This isn't mere pop snobbery, by the way. I'd rather see Girls Aloud at No 1 than Editors. But The Climb is a lame cover version of a lame Miley Cyrus song. If X Factor can't be arsed to do better than that, its grip on the yuletide charts deserves to be broken.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/dec/21/charlie-brooker-rage-against-the-machine

People keep going on about how much Sony made (which isn't the point).

I think the point is more that, as with a lot of things, you're being presented with a choice that isn't really a choice at all. Buy X if you're rebellious, buy Y if you're conformist, but the money goes to the same place. 🙂

Not at all, you can buy whatever the hell you want?

That isn't the point at all! I don't suppose that bloke and his wife actually knew the Sony connection – they were just having a laugh. The bloke is a RATM fan and the lyrics conveyed his thoughts.