Public vs Private (leave the trolling at the door)

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Public vs Private (leave the trolling at the door)

234 posts & 54 voices | Started 6 months ago by LHS | Latest reply from clubber

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JY argues

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LHS - Member

Apologies if this has been done to death, and no trolling, arguing or the usual rubbish please.

I am genuinely interested in the direct comparison between Public sector and Private sector compensation.

It is evident that it boils down to Pay, Pension and Retirement age.

If we leave the 1% extremes at the door and look at the average employee for both sectors it is apparent that average pay looks about the same. Some research states that Public sector get paid 7% more, some say they get paid 5% less and a lot depends on again the way you use the data, but I would conclude that on average, pay is about the same.

Pension wise, this seems to be quite evident that Public sector final salary pensions are far better than that in the private sector and even with the cuts proposed they are still better. Is this a fair assessment?

Retirement age I am not sure about. I understand some uniformed staff in the public sector retire earlier, but for good reason, and the rest of the staff are now being asked to work to the state retirement age. Is this correct?

As an outsider looking in, it would seem fair that between the two sectors, the pay, pension and retirement age (in an ideal world) would be the same and the government at the moment are trying to address this after it being skewed or many years.

Is this a fair assessment?

Posted 6 months ago #
LHS - Member

Sorry wrong forum! Please move!

Posted 6 months ago #
FuzzyWuzzy - Member

Probably but as you allude to there's dozens of different stats touted around and interpretations of the same stats depending on who's trying to make a point so not sure I'd trust anyone who claims to accurately know how both sectors stack up.

Posted 6 months ago #
jota180 - Member

I asked a question on a previous thread, trying to get to the bottom of the numbers regarding pension contributions without either side putting a spin on it
I copied a table from a gov site and ask if this was indeed the numbers that were on offer
No one seemed to know or was wiling to confirm or correct the numbers, all I got was people saying 'what about the MPs pensions' or 'you've missed a bit out' etc. so I'm still left listening to each side calling the others liars without really being any wiser.

Posted 6 months ago #
vinnyeh - Member

This video from Office National Stats was posted by someone the other day- explains quite a bit.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZsbsZ-gvDU

Posted 6 months ago #
organic355 - Member

and no trolling, arguing or the usual rubbish please

lets see how long that lasts.......

Posted 6 months ago #
FunkyDunc - Member

Ok, I currently work for the NHS and have done for 3 years. When I joined the NHS I joined for more stability in a job and more flexible working arrangements. Turned out my pay and pension are better too than I could get like for like in the Private Sector (in the current climate).

However when times are good ie not recession I personally beleive that you can get a better package financially in the private sector. I think private sector workers know this too.

Historically in my field of work, the NHS may have had 5 applicants for every job. Over the last 3 or so years this has gone up to 100 applicants for every job.

Posted 6 months ago #
Drac - Moderator

Retirement age I am not sure about. I understand some uniformed staff in the public sector retire earlier, but for good reason, and the rest of the staff are now being asked to work to the state retirement age. Is this correct?

I'll quickly answer this bit as just in from nights.

3 main uniformed services are Police, Fire and Ambulance. Yes I know the armed forces but they are that armed forces.

Police and Fire are an emergency service and have a Home Office Pension and pay conditions, they can currently retire earlier. I'll leave it at that as I may get the ages wrong and it'll set me off on a rant.

Ambulance services aren't classed as an Emergency Service we come under NHS pension scheme. So we are currently looking at working to we're 68 with a bigger penalty for retire earlier. As my pension stands today I can retire at 60 with very little loss I was looking at 58 with some loss but hopefully still with some fitness. Im now looking that I'll be well into my 60s possibly going on 70 before I can retire. Whilst the service we have gets busier year by year and more responsibilities are added.

Posted 6 months ago #
FunkyDunc - Member

Just to qualify I am NHS back office. I completey agree with Drac that most frontline NHS staff work incredibly hard for little reward. Having said that though I know some jobs are even harder than any NHS job in the Private sector and they will work to retirement age (what ever that will be) and just get a state pension and die of ill health as a result of their job.

Posted 6 months ago #
paulosoxo - Member

Could a 70 year old manage as a paramedic?

Posted 6 months ago #
Drac - Moderator

Could a 70 year old manage as a paramedic?

No. Many struggle passed 55 to do the job from what I've seen. The shift patterns and physical aspect of the job means they suffer ill health, stress and exhaustion.

Private sector and they will work to retirement age (what ever that will be) and just get a state pension and die of ill health as a result of their job.

Yes I agree but I signed up to a job and pension that meant I shouldn't need to, that's being taken away.

Posted 6 months ago #
TandemJeremy - Member

If you look at simple gross pay private sector get paid less. However if you look at equal qualifications skills and experiences private sector get paid more.

Posted 6 months ago #
b r - Member

I understand some uniformed staff in the public sector retire earlier, but for good reason,

But that isn't a good reason to get a full pension when the rest of us have to work for (up to) another +15 years.

I'm happy that they 'retire' from their 'front-line' role, when not medically fit - but surely the same could be said for a construction worker?

We need to re-examine the whole area of pensions, both private and public - along with benefits/allowances (as all pensioners get additional help [whether they need it or not] from the state).

EDIT

you look at simple gross pay private sector get paid less. However if you look at equal qualifications skills and experiences private sector get paid more.

Eh?

Another gem...

Posted 6 months ago #
TandemJeremy - Member

Its the truth BR - just 'cos it don't fit in with your predjudices

Posted 6 months ago #
Stoner - Member

However if you look at equal qualifications skills and experiences private sector get paid more.

Did you watch the ONS vodcast TJ?

Posted 6 months ago #
LHS - Member

Its the truth BR - just 'cos it don't fit in with your predjudices

Keep it civil!

If you look at simple gross pay private sector get paid less. However if you look at equal qualifications skills and experiences private sector get paid more.

Ok TJ, to explore your point, you are stating that I am guessing for someone who is degree qualified, you get paid less in the public sector than you do in the private sector, is that correct?

Do you have any examples to clarify the point?

EDIT: I think the opposing view to this from what i hear when working in the UK is that if you are classed as a low-skilled worker, you get paid far more and have a much better pension in the public sector than in the private sector.

Posted 6 months ago #
thomthumb - Member

ben goldacre wrote about this (couple of years ago)

Posted 6 months ago #
smogmonster - Member

Of course TJ is spouting the usual leftwing balls (pardon the pun)...my missus, degree qualified Health Visitor earns £34k....all our friends with degrees earn way less in the private sector. The only friends we know who earn more work in.....the public sector! Its a myth spouted by public sector workers....i speak as an ex public sector who now works in the private sector.

Posted 6 months ago #
TandemJeremy - Member

LHS - nursing is one area where private sector pays less. Mainly because the vast bulk of the private sector is nursing home that are very cash limited. The result is nursing homes have great difficulties recruiting and retaining staff and often go overseas to recruit - usually from south Africa, Bulgaria and Romania.

Senior nursing staff in the private sector get paid significantly more than in the public sector IME

A nurse like myself working on the shop floor in the NHS - 20+ years experience, degree qualified, will earn around £28 000pa which for the level of skills and experience is not great and does not compare well with someone with a similar level of skills and experience in other professions in the private sector.

comparisons are hard to make really especially in a profession like nursing where there is no free market in skills.

Posted 6 months ago #
TandemJeremy - Member

No smogmonster - its the truth - see the ONS data above

Posted 6 months ago #
paulosoxo - Member

smogmonster - Member
Of course TJ is spouting the usual leftwing balls (pardon the pun)...my missus, degree qualified Health Visitor earns £34k....all our friends with degrees earn way less in the private sector. The only friends we know who earn more work in.....the public sector! Its a myth spouted by public sector workers....i speak as an ex public sector who now works in the private sector.

And to counter that, I earn far more than my wife, who went to Durham, has an English literature degree and works as a teacher. I have no degree and only 5 GCSE's above a C as well as an ONC. #thicko

Posted 6 months ago #
smogmonster - Member

Ah statistics....whats the old saying? Lies, damn lies and statistics?

Posted 6 months ago #
jonba - Member

Would it also be worth considering fluctuation in pay and job security. Is one particular job market more volatile than the other?

If you asked me right now I'd say that public sector jobs are much more secure, you can move into many areas and build a career and have a stable job. But on the other hand when times are good the private sector is much quicker to pass on pay increases.

Also while on average those in the public sector with degrees are paid more, there is probably more opportunity to get very high wages in the private sectors. I have friends and family who have gone into jobs where they could be on 6 figure salaries by the time they are in their mid thirties.

Not seen any statistics on this.

Posted 6 months ago #
TandemJeremy - Member

So rigously collected data or anecdote? which is more accurate?

Posted 6 months ago #
TandemJeremy - Member

Also while on average those in the public sector with degrees are paid more
no they are paid less according to the ONS data

Posted 6 months ago #
sam_underhill - Member

does not compare well with someone with a similar level of skills and experience in other professions in the private sector

That's not really comparing apples with apples though is it? I may as well say that I could earn more in the banking industry. But I don't want to be a banker so I stick with what I've got.

I think there are some cases where the public / private salaries and pensions package are vastly different (nursing clearly) but on the whole there is an unaffordable pensions black hole in the public sector. It's either reduce the public sector bills or pay more tax.

Posted 6 months ago #
smogmonster - Member

Good for you Paulosoxo, how many others you know earn more than your wife, with similar time off and similar pension (even after the current proposals?). Nice to see the insult also, well done.

Posted 6 months ago #
paulosoxo - Member

comparisons are hard to make really especially in a profession like nursing where there is no free market in skills.

From my experience of nurses as a customer. There's nurses and there's nurses. I should hope that the staff nurses on ICCU get paid substantially more than a staff nurse in one of the wards I was in for rehab.

Posted 6 months ago #
clubber - Member

My wife earns less in the NHS than she would doing the same job in private sector. She does get a much better pension and maternity, etc though. Overall it approximately balances out.

You simply can't directly compare 'public' to 'private' - it's like saying who gets paid more - lawyers or doctors - as there's such a variation in the roles covered by the public sector and some will be relatively better or worse than others.

She would however say that working in the NHS there are far more useless, ineffectual, unmovtivated people (not frontline but rather office, admin, etc) just keeping their heads down and collecting the money than in the private sector.

Posted 6 months ago #
TandemJeremy - Member

Oh ffs - its quite incredible how many folk have been taken in by the tory lies and relentless tory propaganda

there is no
unaffordable pensions black hole in the public sector.

The additional contributions the tories want us to pay are simply a tax - it will not go into pensions it will be used to cut the deficit

Posted 6 months ago #
sam_underhill - Member

it will not go into pensions it will be used to cut the deficit

and the reasons why we have a deficit are?

Posted 6 months ago #
clubber - Member

TJ - and no trolling, arguing or the usual rubbish please

Posted 6 months ago #
LHS - Member

I think once you start comparing specific jobs then that will be the downfall in any sector.

I'll give you a two good examples without even comparing public to private working:

Public Sector Administrative assistant to NHS director gets paid more than a Nurse

Private Sector Plumber gets paid more than a Private Sector PHD qualified genetics researcher.

In those examples would you say that is fair? Who are you to say yes or no? There will always be examples where people believe they should be paid more than someone else.

Posted 6 months ago #
paulosoxo - Member

Nice to see the insult also, well done

If you meant the #thicko hashtag, that was to refer to myself and my 5 GCSE'S. Sorry if you thought it was aimed at you. It wasn't.

Posted 6 months ago #
konabunny - Member

If we leave the 1% extremes at the door and look at the average employee for both sectors it is apparent that average pay looks about the same.

As TJ alludes to - as to what TJ alludes - as TJ's allusion...

...Like TJ sez, comparing the average wages doesn't say much necessarily.

Posted 6 months ago #