[Closed] Public vs Private (leave the trolling at the door)

Sorry wrong forum! Please move! 🙄

Probably but as you allude to there's dozens of different stats touted around and interpretations of the same stats depending on who's trying to make a point so not sure I'd trust anyone who claims to accurately know how both sectors stack up.

I asked a question on a previous thread, trying to get to the bottom of the numbers regarding pension contributions without either side putting a spin on it
I copied a table from a gov site and ask if this was indeed the numbers that were on offer
No one seemed to know or was wiling to confirm or correct the numbers, all I got was people saying 'what about the MPs pensions' or 'you've missed a bit out' etc. so I'm still left listening to each side calling the others liars without really being any wiser.

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This video from Office National Stats was posted by someone the other day- explains quite a bit.

and no trolling, arguing or the usual rubbish please

lets see how long that lasts.......

Ok, I currently work for the NHS and have done for 3 years. When I joined the NHS I joined for more stability in a job and more flexible working arrangements. Turned out my pay and pension are better too than I could get like for like in the Private Sector (in the current climate).

However when times are good ie not recession I personally beleive that you can get a better package financially in the private sector. I think private sector workers know this too.

Historically in my field of work, the NHS may have had 5 applicants for every job. Over the last 3 or so years this has gone up to 100 applicants for every job.

Retirement age I am not sure about. I understand some uniformed staff in the public sector retire earlier, but for good reason, and the rest of the staff are now being asked to work to the state retirement age. Is this correct?

I'll quickly answer this bit as just in from nights.

3 main uniformed services are Police, Fire and Ambulance. Yes I know the armed forces but they are that armed forces.

Police and Fire are an emergency service and have a Home Office Pension and pay conditions, they can currently retire earlier. I'll leave it at that as I may get the ages wrong and it'll set me off on a rant.

Ambulance services aren't classed as an Emergency Service we come under NHS pension scheme. So we are currently looking at working to we're 68 with a bigger penalty for retire earlier. As my pension stands today I can retire at 60 with very little loss I was looking at 58 with some loss but hopefully still with some fitness. Im now looking that I'll be well into my 60s possibly going on 70 before I can retire. Whilst the service we have gets busier year by year and more responsibilities are added.

Just to qualify I am NHS back office. I completey agree with Drac that most frontline NHS staff work incredibly hard for little reward. Having said that though I know some jobs are even harder than any NHS job in the Private sector and they will work to retirement age (what ever that will be) and just get a state pension and die of ill health as a result of their job.

Could a 70 year old manage as a paramedic?

Could a 70 year old manage as a paramedic?

No. Many struggle passed 55 to do the job from what I've seen. The shift patterns and physical aspect of the job means they suffer ill health, stress and exhaustion.

Private sector and they will work to retirement age (what ever that will be) and just get a state pension and die of ill health as a result of their job.

Yes I agree but I signed up to a job and pension that meant I shouldn't need to, that's being taken away.

If you look at simple gross pay private sector get paid less. However if you look at equal qualifications skills and experiences private sector get paid more.

[i]I understand some uniformed staff in the public sector retire earlier, but for good reason, [/i]

But that isn't a good reason to get a full pension when the rest of us have to work for (up to) another +15 years.

I'm happy that they 'retire' from their 'front-line' role, when not medically fit - but surely the same could be said for a construction worker?

We need to re-examine the whole area of pensions, both private and public - along with benefits/allowances (as all pensioners get additional help [whether they need it or not] from the state).

EDIT

[i] you look at simple gross pay private sector get paid less. However if you look at equal qualifications skills and experiences private sector get paid more. [/i]

Eh?

Another gem...

Its the truth BR - just 'cos it don't fit in with your predjudices

However if you look at equal qualifications skills and experiences private sector get paid more.

Did you watch the ONS vodcast TJ?

Its the truth BR - just 'cos it don't fit in with your predjudices

Keep it civil!

If you look at simple gross pay private sector get paid less. However if you look at equal qualifications skills and experiences private sector get paid more.

Ok TJ, to explore your point, you are stating that I am guessing for someone who is degree qualified, you get paid less in the public sector than you do in the private sector, is that correct?

Do you have any examples to clarify the point?

EDIT: I think the opposing view to this from what i hear when working in the UK is that if you are classed as a low-skilled worker, you get paid far more and have a much better pension in the public sector than in the private sector.

[url= http://www.badscience.net/2010/01/if-you-want-to-be-trusted-more-claim-less/ ]ben goldacre[/url] wrote about this (couple of years ago)

Of course TJ is spouting the usual leftwing balls (pardon the pun)...my missus, degree qualified Health Visitor earns £34k....all our friends with degrees earn way less in the private sector. The only friends we know who earn more work in.....the public sector! Its a myth spouted by public sector workers....i speak as an ex public sector who now works in the private sector.

LHS - nursing is one area where private sector pays less. Mainly because the vast bulk of the private sector is nursing home that are very cash limited. The result is nursing homes have great difficulties recruiting and retaining staff and often go overseas to recruit - usually from south Africa, Bulgaria and Romania.

Senior nursing staff in the private sector get paid significantly more than in the public sector IME

A nurse like myself working on the shop floor in the NHS - 20+ years experience, degree qualified, will earn around £28 000pa which for the level of skills and experience is not great and does not compare well with someone with a similar level of skills and experience in other professions in the private sector.

comparisons are hard to make really especially in a profession like nursing where there is no free market in skills.

No smogmonster - its the truth - see the ONS data above

smogmonster - Member
Of course TJ is spouting the usual leftwing balls (pardon the pun)...my missus, degree qualified Health Visitor earns £34k....all our friends with degrees earn way less in the private sector. The only friends we know who earn more work in.....the public sector! Its a myth spouted by public sector workers....i speak as an ex public sector who now works in the private sector.

And to counter that, I earn far more than my wife, who went to Durham, has an English literature degree and works as a teacher. I have no degree and only 5 GCSE's above a C as well as an ONC. #thicko

Ah statistics....whats the old saying? Lies, damn lies and statistics?

Would it also be worth considering fluctuation in pay and job security. Is one particular job market more volatile than the other?

If you asked me right now I'd say that public sector jobs are much more secure, you can move into many areas and build a career and have a stable job. But on the other hand when times are good the private sector is much quicker to pass on pay increases.

Also while on average those in the public sector with degrees are paid more, there is probably more opportunity to get very high wages in the private sectors. I have friends and family who have gone into jobs where they could be on 6 figure salaries by the time they are in their mid thirties.

Not seen any statistics on this.

So rigously collected data or anecdote? which is more accurate?

Also while on average those in the public sector with degrees are paid more

does not compare well with someone with a similar level of skills and experience in other professions in the private sector

That's not really comparing apples with apples though is it? I may as well say that I could earn more in the banking industry. But I don't want to be a banker so I stick with what I've got.

I think there are some cases where the public / private salaries and pensions package are vastly different (nursing clearly) but on the whole there is an unaffordable pensions black hole in the public sector. It's either reduce the public sector bills or pay more tax.

Good for you Paulosoxo, how many others you know earn more than your wife, with similar time off and similar pension (even after the current proposals?). Nice to see the insult also, well done.

comparisons are hard to make really especially in a profession like nursing where there is no free market in skills.

From my experience of nurses as a customer. There's nurses and there's nurses. I should hope that the staff nurses on ICCU get paid substantially more than a staff nurse in one of the wards I was in for rehab.

My wife earns less in the NHS than she would doing the same job in private sector. She does get a much better pension and maternity, etc though. Overall it approximately balances out.

You simply can't directly compare 'public' to 'private' - it's like saying who gets paid more - lawyers or doctors - as there's such a variation in the roles covered by the public sector and some will be relatively better or worse than others.

She would however say that working in the NHS there are far more useless, ineffectual, unmovtivated people (not frontline but rather office, admin, etc) just keeping their heads down and collecting the money than in the private sector.

Oh ffs - its quite incredible how many folk have been taken in by the tory lies and relentless tory propaganda

there is no

unaffordable pensions black hole in the public sector.

The additional contributions the tories want us to pay are simply a tax - it will not go into pensions it will be used to cut the deficit

it will not go into pensions it will be used to cut the deficit

and the reasons why we have a deficit are?

TJ - [b]and no trolling, arguing or the usual rubbish please[/b]

I think once you start comparing specific jobs then that will be the downfall in any sector.

I'll give you a two good examples without even comparing public to private working:

Public Sector Administrative assistant to NHS director gets paid more than a Nurse

Private Sector Plumber gets paid more than a Private Sector PHD qualified genetics researcher.

In those examples would you say that is fair? Who are you to say yes or no? There will always be examples where people believe they should be paid more than someone else.

Nice to see the insult also, well done

If you meant the #thicko hashtag, that was to refer to myself and my 5 GCSE'S. Sorry if you thought it was aimed at you. It wasn't.

If we leave the 1% extremes at the door and look at the average employee for both sectors it is apparent that average pay looks about the same.

...Like TJ sez, comparing the average wages doesn't say much necessarily.

The additional contributions the tories want us to pay are simply a tax

Are pay cuts preferable to job losses? I'm indifferent, but private and public seem to have adopted this approach.

This is probably going to come across all wrong but I'll have a go...

The common theme among a lot public sector workers when interviewed is that they they fully expect to work in the same job/careeer until retirement - "a job for life". It comes across as their divine right, in a once you're in, you're in for life manner.

Why is this? Why should someone who chooses teaching for example feel they should be able to retire earlier and get a pension earlier than A.N.Other worker? No one's forcing them to teach until they're 67. Why not change careers at earlier stage and move to less demanding job where they can use their skills as many thousands of other in the private sector do all the time.

So as an experienced nurse / teacher / fireman what other jobs should we do instead?

TandemJeremy - Member
Oh ffs - its quite incredible how many folk have been taken in by the tory lies and relentless tory propaganda

TJ do me a favour and either confirm or rebuke the figures I posted above are an accurate summary of the contribution side of the deal on offer [if it still is]
I certainly don't want to be taken in by anyone but when you can't get a simple answer .........

Here goes the STW-standard spiral into nastiness... can we pull it back from the brink?

So as an experienced nurse / teacher / fireman what other jobs should we do instead?

I'm sure skilled people prefer an ex-skilled person as a manager rather than a professional manager.

There's a numerous related support roles to chose from too.

It is a very odd idea that a career path comes to an end with your first job.

Jonba, you find that in the private sector someone with a degree and talent will be paid well as they will generate more income than they take in salary. The flipside is that someone who got a degree in useless subject and generally not as talented as a someone who didn't go to uni but gained experience with other employers will be a more attractive candidate than the graduate.
At the same time private sector employ graduates for jobs that require the skills they have but I've seen local government adverts requesting degrees for jobs that don't require them. An example of this in my field of accountancy is what equates to an accounts assistant needing a degree and CIPFA qualification for basically doing a job that in the private sector would be done by an AAT trainee who are usually school leavers on much less pay.

Now now.
Worked as a Claims handler/investigator for a large bank/insurer prior to my current job. Attended uni but no degree to show for it. Worked 9 to 5 Monday to Friday. Started on 10k doing new claims, went up to £17 k by the end after7 years. Also got a 10% bonus every year plus employers contributed a few% to my pension along with mine. Total package prob just under £20k.
Work in the Nhs now. Basic wage £18k after nearly 4 years. Work all sorts of shifts, as I'm relief its different shifts every week, hard to plan anything never mind childcare.. Get a shift allowance which adds a coupla grand plus my employer contributes about 8% I think towards my pension. Total package prob about £22k. Not that much more considering the shifts, the unsocial hours, the stressful nature of the job and the physical side of it too.
Now, I love my work now, see it more as a vocation rather than a job, not complaining about it in any way. I come home from a shift tired but usually happy.
Not happy about the prospect of having to humph folk down stairs till I'm 68, never mind paying more and getting less back to/from my pension.

I haven't read the whole thread and I've posted this before but..
i've moved from public to private and back again.
Moving from public sector to the private sector was the same job with pretty much the same skills. A bit more driving to jobs and a bit more admin for billing customers. There was an £8k hike in wages, a company car and a company phone. Lost 2 or 3 days holiday IIRC. the NHS never paid overtime, overtime was taken as time off in lieu, the private sector insisted you take the money. There was no pension scheme available.
Back to public sector and an upward career move into management - managing a small department with responsibility for staff, projects and a budget. Dropped about £1k, gave up car and phone, gained a few days holiday. Also back into the loving arms of the NHS pension scheme

Edit - having posted, one big change has been that whereas in the private sector, skills were largely generic and could be transferred, I'm now specialist in diagnostic imaging which at my current grade effectively ties me to the NHS or, should I decide to move jobs, either I drop wages substantially as I won't be able to leverage specialst skills or relocate (unless anyone knows any large scale users of x-ray equipment on people). In the private sector, moving and using specialist skills is probably less of an issue.

its wierd that the public sector is getting all upity about a 3% increase in pension contributions, but not about the capped pay rises which next year (with RPI at approx 4%) will mean the same thing..