Possible meeting with the Forestry Commission in Wyre Forest.

I've got a meeting with the Forestry Commission on Monday to discuss getting permission to use some of the non RoWs in the forest for a trailquest I am organising in December.

The possibility of another meeting to discuss mountain biking in general in the forest has also been mentioned.
I suspect the FC prefer to deal with organisations, not individuals, but as there is no mountain biking equivalent of the RAC, Ramblers, local running club, etc. that represents the majority of the people who ride in the forest, it may come down to me and a couple of others.

My only qualifications are that;
My name was proposed by the guy who organises the downhill trail maintenance at Ribbesford, who already has a good working relationship with the FC.
I've already been conversing with the FCs top guy in the area via phone and email over the trailquest, so we do at least sort of know each other.
I live in the Wyre Forest.
I'm a Sustrans volunteer Ranger on part of Route 45 which includes the railway line and mile climb.

I don't know if any of that makes me the best spokesman for mountain bikers, but I'll give it a go.

So, if we get this meeting, and it is still an if at this stage, what am I going to say ?
I realise I will have no authority to enforce any decisions.
If I get given only certain areas for the trailquest, I can disqualify anyone caught outside those areas.
If the FC say they will make some proper permanent marked trails for mountain bikers around Kinlet if we promise to keep out of the SSSIs, I can't stop people breaking the rules.

Any ideas on what I should propose or ask for ?

Wouldn't the UK branch of the IMBA be well placed?

Yes, I did wonder that, and I'd be happy to pass it on to them or even become their representative in this area if they wanted me to.

How many mountain bikers are in the IMBA, CTC or other national organisation though ?

Not I, but I rarely join things like that unless forced to anyway. I suspect your poll thread will return very minimal participation, but my point was more that an over-seeing body does technically exist and may help out.

Ah,the maverick free spirit of the mountain biker.
I think that's the problem. There are pony clubs, orienteering clubs, walking clubs and so on who hold organised events for their members, but most mountain bikers just turn up on their own or with a few mates and ride.

I can only guess, at this stage, what might be discussed at any meeting.
The FC have been providing materials for the downhill tracks at Ribbesford.
Maybe they think that by doing the same for the XCers in the Wyre, a mixture of purpose built trails and peer group pressure would keep people in the right areas.

I've got the trailquest meeting on Monday and I'll try to find out if they actually want a general mountain biking meeting and, if so, what they want to discuss and who with, then.
It would be handy to go in with some ideas myself though, so I just wondered if anyone's got any points they would like me to raise with the FC if I get a chance.

If you are meeting with the young guy who told me he was head ranger and that bicycles weren't welcome in the forest you might have a different outcome to what you want
They will probably say that there is already a designated area for bikes-the piss poor area of kinlet and fob you off with that

i'd quite like them to leave it as it is, quiet and relatively unknown, we don't want another cannock where you can't move for people at the weekends

I've already got a meeting planned for Monday to discuss the use of non RoWs for the trailquest. He could have just said No over the phone, so I think I'm getting somewhere there.

Maybe the FC have come to realise they can't stop off piste mountain biking in the Wyre, so they might as well talk to mountain bikers to try to reach a compromise between "You can't ride anywhere" and "We want to ride everywhere"

I don't think another Cannock is likely.
Ribbesford is working out quite well with minimal publicity and volunteer trail building.
Maybe an XC equivalent at Kinlet could work ?

I started MTB-ing about 7years ago and the Wyre forest was my first proper experience, my m8 and I got lost for 5 fantastic hours, many of those without a clue where we were, or even to get back to the car.
I'm not the most regular of users, but still enjoy a run round a route I know when I'm sure it well dried out 😛 , but the FC's almost anti-MTB-ing attitude (that's my view of them locally) will never stop me riding there..
They surely must realise they're never going to stop locals doing as they please – what peer pressure can be brought against a local with no affiliations to cycling groups (informal or otherwise)

But as per RD I'd prefer to leave the status-quo rather than create another Cannock.

Though I do think that they could make a second visitor centre @ the Button Oak end, with way marked trail which bring would attract ppl in like the Welsh FC have done, down the button oak end of the wood, but it would take too much investment & face major objections from the well to do locals..

Well, the trailquest meeting went reasonably well.
The Wyre Forest is a confusing mixture of ownership and management, there's no one organisation responsible for the whole forest. The FC seem OK with the idea so far and a brief phone conversation with Natural England sounded hopeful. If they both go for it we will have access to a largest part of the forest.

Regarding the creation of proper marked trails in the Wyre, I was told "That will only happen if I get direct orders from above". There is no local support for this idea at all.
As far as the Wyre rangers are concerned, Cannock is for XC, Ludlow is for DH, Wyre is for family trails.

Phew! Business as usual then

Must admit as much as I enjoy the built trails at Cannock, I wouldn't want that kind of thing at the Wyre Forest too. It's nice to have a bit of solitude on quiet non-purpose built trails as a contrast / alternative to Cannock. (Both are about the same journey time away from where I live.)
I do think there should be more access to singletrack trails in the bulk of the forest, but I don't think MTBers (or horse riders for that matter) do theirselves any favours by keep riding in the SSSI areas. (The tracks are plain for all to see.)
I'm not adverse to poaching the odd bit of cheek, but that's a bit too cheeky I feel…
The Kinlet area is a bit crap tbh. There are some good bits of singletrack, but a lot becomes unrideable in wet weather and a huge chunk of the area is taken up by the testing facility which limits the loops you can string together.

In summary – I guess I'd like to see open access apart from marked footpaths and SSSIs.

Graham, I'm interested in your negotiations for the TQ. Are you expecting to get pretty much open access to most of the forest? I've been thinking for a while of organising an MTBO, or more likely an orienteering duathlon there (possibly even a triathlon – the river's not that far away to go for a kayak). The issue being the lack of free access to anything other than what I know as Postensplain (is that what you lot are referring to as Kinlet?) making for rather a small area. Would be far more feasible if there was access to more of the forest. Bearing in mind of course that MTBO is slightly different to a TQ in that everybody is channeled down the same tracks. Have never actually tried pursuing access talks, but it sounds like it might be worthwhile.

If you're at all interested, I belong to the orienteering club which uses Wyre Forest (quite often orienteer there – in fact there's a low key event there on Thursday), so could put you in touch with the people who negotiate our access, who might actually have a better handle on ownership and permissions than the FC do.

aracer, other people in MTQ have tried to organise a trailquest in the Wyre before and always got a flat refusal from the FC. The reason was always that only 6 events are allowed per year and they are already taken.
I don't know what's changed and why I've got this far, but I think there is pressure from somewhere to increase diversity of activities in the forest, without increasing conflict between different users.
I keep stressing that we only get about 50 riders at a trailquest, and they are spread over about 150 sq km for about 5 hours, so I guess we are seen as a low impact activity that shouldn't interfere with other users of the forest on the day.

The FC only own or manage about half of the forest, most of the other half is owned or managed by Natural England.
Apparently, the FC feel this puts unfair pressure on them as NE don't hold any events on their half, so they have been trying to get NE do their bit and it looks like NE are about to relent and allow use of their land.
I phoned NE today. The guy I wanted was out, but is going to phone me back tomorrow. The guy I spoke to sounded keen and seemed more concerned about whether any money raised would go to charity than anything else.

I tried to ask the FC for open access to all hard tracks, but they ruled out Hawkbatch straight away, which I thought was odd as that's where the dog sled race is held.
They wouldn't even allow unrestricted access to the Kinlet/Postensplain/Rocket Site mountain bike area for an organised event.

I'll speak to Natural England again tomorrow and see where I get with them.
The Forestry Commission want me to provide a map of where I want to put the control points so they can approve them, so I'll start on that soon.

I've thought about taking up orienteering. I do a bit of running and I think I would enjoy the challenge of navigating at the same time. I work shifts which can make any sort of midweek evening meeting awkward.
I've seen the permanent orienteering markers around Hawkbatch and Alveley Country park, is that you ? I'd be interested in meeting the people who organise it.
If you're putting on a triathlon, how about Trimpley reservoir ?

strange that the very people looking after our national assets who should be encouraging access try to limit it. Damage from sport use in FC areas has to be zero compared to the damage they leave when thinning or logging. Why limit an area to 6 events a year? Looks like an arbitrary number plucked from the air without any science behind it.

'Proper' marked trails in the Wyre? NO!

Why do some individuals feel the need to take it upon themselves to have these discussions with the FC etc? You do not represent the mountain bike community.

Just leave it be. If the land owners / managers ever decide there is a need for 'official' access they will seek advice from the professional bodies. That's when you can have your say.

IMHO 😉

Why do some individuals feel the need to take it upon themselves to have these discussions with the FC etc?

Because I heard that discussions had been proposed and ,for the reasons I mentioned above, I thought I was in a suitable position to get involved.

You do not represent the mountain bike community

Which is why I asked for other peoples input via this forum.

We know it's not going to happen anyway now.
Just by having a brief conversation at the end of a meeting on another subject I have gained some information from the FC and passed it on via STW forum, which seems to be what everyone wanted to hear anyway.

I phoned Natural England today and spoke to their events organiser.
I mentioned the concrete road from Cooper's Mill up towards Button Oak and she thought there would be no problem with us using that on a trailquest, so that's more good news there then.

…the very people looking after our national assets who should be encouraging access…

I think that's what it all comes down to.
As I understand it (and I could be wrong again) the FC was created shortly after 1918 to ensure an adequate supply of duck boards for the trenches if ever there was another war.
Things have changed over the years, but I think there are still a lot of older guys who think the FCs primary role is to provide timber, and people walking and riding through just get in the way.
The new idea is that the forests are there to provide recreation for everyone, although many of them will have conflicting interests.
I've just got to convince them that the cost/benefit equation of a trailquest will be no worse than a dog sled race, off road half marathon or Go Ape climbing centre.

Who are you meeting from the FC? Wyre Forest is dealt with by some of the same contacts as Cannock so if you want to drop me a line direct I'd be happy to go over any aspects given the 8 years or so Chase Trails have spent working with the FC.

Thanks for the offer st, but as the FC in the Wyre have said they're not interested in discussing trails and marked routes, I'm not going to pursue the matter.
I'm solely interested in getting permission to use non RoW hard tracks for a specific event on one day now. I think that that is so different to what Chase Trails are doing that there isn't really much in common.
Thanks again, anyway. I'll get in touch if there is anything I think you could help with.

I phoned Natural England again today. That was nice and easy. She said straight away that we could use any hard track in their bit of the forest plus the short descent from the railway down to Cooper's Mill footbridge.
I'll go in and see them soon to clarify exactly where the border is between NE and FC land.

aracer, I mentioned all this to a friend last weekend and he said something about orienteering maps which rang a bell.
I'm sure I saw an orienteering map years ago and it had vegetation and track surfaces marked on it far more clearly than the 1:25000 OS map.
Have you got a similar map for the Wyre Forest ?
How do I get a copy ? Can I buy one ? Would I get given one if I entered an event ?
It's something I've been meaning to do myself for a long time, but it's such a big project I never started.
For example, the bridleways heading West and North from the bottom of the hill near Park House will be almost unridable in December, while the track branching off the family cycle route towards St John's Lane is not even shown.
It would be handy to have a map with all this information already on it if I could find one.

Aracer, ditto to what Graham just said.

There was an orienteering event based at the Visitor Centre last night.
I spoke to the organiser after the event and he gave me an orienteering map covering about 1km x 2km near the VC.
There's far more information on it than I need. If you're on a bike, you don't really need to know if the bits between the trails are "Forest, slow run", "Forest, walk" or "Forest, fight". 🙂

"forest fight" sounds intriguing, are there squirrels involved?

No squirrels, just men in tights.

I've been detouring via the Natural England office in the Wyre forest on my way to or from work recently and I finally managed to catch the two people I wanted to talk to in today.

For those who have got a newer 1:25000 OS map which shows Open Access areas, the FC manage the brighter green Open Access area to the west, NE manage the darker green area to the East. If you've got an older map where it's all one colour, the boundary is roughly the long straight fence running South from the Button Oak car parks to the footbridge over Dowles Brook, then south again along parish boundary in the valley bottom and on to Alton Farm.

As far as the Trailquest goes, NE don't want us using the area South of the railway. They manage part of it on behalf of the land owner and they know without asking that he won't want mountain bikes there. It's a National Nature Reserve with only a couple of hard tracks that don't link up anyway, so that's pretty much what I expected.
They are happy for us to use any hard track North of the railway though, so that gives me some scope to link up the railway and bridleway with the Kinlet Road.
Like the FC, they want me to go back with a map showing where I want to put the Control Points before they give me the final go ahead.

We then had an interesting discussion about mountain biking in the forest in general.
The proposed mountain biking meetings with the FC that I had heard about turned out to be an idea from the Ribbesford downhillers and the FC weren't interested when I mentioned it to them.
Natural England, on the other hand, told me they wanted to set up some sort of mountain biker's forum without me even mentioning it.
They deal with T.R.O.T. and the Shropshire Bridleway Association (although I can't find that name on the web, so I may have got it wrong) but as there is no similar mountain bike organisation, they want to get a group of local riders together to discuss and plan local trails.

They also mentioned that they want to build or improve some trails to join up the existing bridleways. Definitely not singletrack, and nothing like Cannock, but not just another family cycle route.

They know about the dodgy bridge on The Camber and intend to replace it with something safer soon.

They are trying to get the FC to do something a bit more organised at Kinlet too. There's one "To the Kinlet mountain biking area" sign near the top of the Mile climb, then nothing when you get there. I think NE want the FC to encourage bikers over that way to keep us out of the rest of the forest.

They want to get about a dozen mountain bikers on this forum, so if anyone is interested, get in touch with me or directly with Natural England in the Wyre Forest.
It will probably meet on weekday evenings, starting later in the summer.

graham i would of been up for this but im away from the middle of july until the end of november in the falklands so unfortunatlet cant.

i was wondering though if it would be worth showing them the exisiting bits that riders use, im not going to names sections of trail but there are a few bits that most mountain bikers use often whereas i dont think walkers do.

if they became aware of said trails and were happy with them would it be possible to get funding to get them into a more useable state for the whole year rather than the dry season??

have you posted up on bikeradar under the oraganised ride section??

cheers

steve

They know about Camber, and the dodgy bridge, although they didn't know the name.
That's the one trail they mentioned specifically as they said they would be replacing the bridge, but they wouldn't be signposting it from the top because if it becomes an 'official' trail they then become responsible for maintaining it, which they haven't got the resources to do.
I would imagine there are some safety guidelines for official trails too. Camber has got some potentially serious drops to the left in places if you get the line wrong.
I just hope they don't build a narrow bridge with handrails.

They were a bit vague about exactly what they do want to do, apart from saying definitely no singletrack. My guess is they want to build something that will last a few years, like the family routes, rather than something that will get braking bumps that need constant repair.

There's a Wyre Forest District Council Cycling Forum that meets every month or so to discuss cycling in the area. That's all about road markings and town centre cycle parking though and is made up of local councillors, the local doctor, Sustrans, FoE etc.
I think Natural England want to start something similar for mountain biking on their patch. They said about a dozen people, but I don't suppose everyone will get to every meeting, so if you're keen to get involved, but can't make it until November, I'm sure that won't be a problem.

Reading between the lines, I think the FC feel that as all the action, like the dog sled race, half marathon and family cycle routes, take place on their half, they want to push NE to do a bit more on their half.
Natural England, on the other hand, want to push the FC to do something with the designated mountain biking area at Kinlet.
I'm hoping we can get in the middle and push both ways at once. 😉

I would be prepared to be involved with a Forum re riding in the Wyre. I know most of it fairly well – but not all by any means. Tried to mail you separately but all I got was site about wreckers!

I liked the work they did on the trail up from the concrete bridge over the stream / river, just downstream from the end of camber. Bulldozed flat with rock that looked like it came from Scotland.

Following the fixmystreet link on this thread, http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/blocked-bridleways-how-do-i-complain-and-will-anything-get-done I contacted Worcester County Council about the missing bridge over Dowles Brook at the bottom of the Mile Climb.

http://www.fixmystreet.com/report/122995

I just got this reply.

Thank you for your recent communication regarding problems you have
encountered on the public rights of way network. We have recorded the
details accordingly.

I can confirm that a replacement bridge has been ordered but due to the
site in question being a Special Site of Scientific Interest, we have
had to wait for permission to begin the work. We have now received
approval and anticipate that the work will begin in August.

So it looks like we'll have a bridge by the winter. 😀