Not me, I was on my grey and black bike. Do you have any info about what's going on from the locals?
Bike Forum
Pipehouse Lane Nr Bath "Improved"??
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Posted 3 months ago #
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awh - Member
... Do you have any info about what's going on from the locals?
er haven't heard anything, to be honest I've never even been down there,
bit embarrassing since I've been working there on and off for the last five years.building some nice stone walls though
Posted 3 months ago # -
Yep it's really getting on my tits now. Went back tonight and they regraded the whole lot.
It's utterly disgraceful and I can't see them saying its for ecological reasons as they've just smashed through everythingPosted 3 months ago # -
They've left their digger and dumper halfway down the trail though. So I'm guessing they still aren't done with it
Unless someone who is light fingered happens to know where they are ............ Not suggesting anyone on here would do such a thingPosted 3 months ago # -
[Daily Mail mode] I hope any of the additional work is just "making good" and they're not just throwing good money after bad. [/Daily Mail mode]
Enquiries are taking place behind the scenes to find out what's motivated this work. Hopefully we can prompt them to fix any future trails with a bit more care and sensitivity.
Posted 3 months ago # -
When was the original work undertaken? Pipehouse is known as being a stream most of the year and the current work doesn't appear to be fixing the problems that caused the rapid erosion of the new surface. Is it going to be repaired after every heavy rainfall?
Posted 3 months ago # -
What ever they are doing they're making a right bloody ARSE of it......
I'm just going to do my rain dance every evening.
Posted 3 months ago # -
If Andy and Mr Agreeable are up for it, I'm well up for a chat to the local council responsible for this
Posted 3 months ago # -
All I can say is Grrrrrrrr I'm so effing angry tonight I could punch a councillor
Posted 3 months ago # -
I wouldn't bother getting angry, they are acting on the best information they have, which is that the track is too rough for someone, be it horses, landys or walkers. I think Andy and the local IMBA rep are on to the ROW officer so we'll see what transpires.
Posted 3 months ago # -
:evil:WTF are they doing!!?? Absolutely crazy, these works will if anything make matters worse.
As already said it's a stream FFS!! Where the **** do they think the water is going to go? They've not addressed any of the drainage issues, if anything by the sounds of it they've made them worse.
The only possible 'up' side to this is that they've made such a mess of it, it can only strengthen our argument that such works need to be carried out with care and thought for all users.
I can't say too much here as it would compromise his position but the local IMBA rep knows the issues and is in touch with the Rights of Way Team.
Cheers Fin for the offer to attend a meeting. I think a meeting on site would be a good idea.
And before you punch him
one of the most local Councillors is a keen cyclist and now Exec Member for Transport, he's on side and I'm sure if he knew about this would be livid. He's been a great help getting the path across Rainbow Woods sorted (between the Uni and Shaft Road) and I'm sure he'll back us if it comes to that.
Posted 3 months ago # -
It's OK
I've calmed down now
As we've said - it's just gonna wash away again
Posted 3 months ago # -
It's OK
I've calmed down now
Not me yet!
I wonder if they plan to lay some nice tarmac on the top to finish it off!!
Posted 3 months ago # -
He's been a great help getting the path across Rainbow Woods sorted (between the Uni and Shaft Road)
What's happening? I saw some no cycling signs go up a few months back. It's on a similar alignment as the bridleway through Monkton Combe Valley so that would seam like the best designation to me. I think I read these paths make up the route of a Roman road. Anyone know?Posted 3 months ago # -
awh - Member
He's been a great help getting the path across Rainbow Woods sorted (between the Uni and Shaft Road)
What's happening? I saw some no cycling signs go up a few months back. It's on a similar alignment as the bridleway through Monkton Combe Valley so that would seam like the best designation to me. I think I read these paths make up the route of a Roman road. Anyone know?
The no cycling signs are now gone
replaced with 'No Motorcycling' Signs.It's a very long story but the Council are planning to turn the existing footpath into a bridleway. Three of the four landowners (which include the NT) are happy, one (who owns the land near the top of Widcome Hill) is not.
The University and Ralph Allens school are behind the plans but it may well come to a public inquiry if the landowner continues to object.
The first stage is informal consultation, that ended 6th Jan, next stage is to formally advertise the order. I'll post details on here and elsewhere to alert people and ask them to write in support.
Back to Pipehouse, have spoken a minute ago to the IMBA rep who yesterday spoke to the Rights of Way Team Leader. Plan is to suggest a meeting, possibly on site. Mr Agreeable and Fin, be great if you could support this, I'll email you
Posted 3 months ago # -
I'll definitely write in support of the bridleway and happy to come along to any Pipehouse meeting.
Posted 3 months ago # -
Does anyone know if there is an IMBA rep for Surrey?
Posted 3 months ago # -
zippykona - Member
Does anyone know if there is an IMBA rep for Surrey?http://imba.org.uk/about-imba/contact/
awh - ygm via yr hotmail ad
Posted 3 months ago # -
Edit, Andy beat me to it!
Posted 3 months ago # -
Thanks, just looked it up. No idea why I've not got in contact with them before.
Posted 3 months ago # -
Still waiting to hear from the Council regards meeting up. In the meantime I thought it might be a good idea to find out how other Council's approach the issue to see if we can identify some best practice.
The Penine Bridelway National Trail seems to be the most cited example of best practice.
Bridleway design and construction
In the construction of bridleways the challenge is to provide safe and accessible routes for horse riders, walkers, mountain bikers and where possible those less mobile. Their design including furniture, routing and surfacing should take into account the requirements of each user but should not compromise its use by horses. The construction and design of bridleways particularly over upland areas is an evolving process and techniques are constantly being reviewed. There will be a
particular test through this strategy to provide engineered and sustainable upland routes in open country, routes that provide interest to experienced mountain bikers and a challenge to horse
riders and walkers whilst maintaining and appropriately enhancing natural and cultural heritage.This test will involve close liaison with users and landowners at the design stage and the adoption of national best practice.
The development of the Pennine Bridleway National Trail focussed attention on construction methods and bridleway design, and in response the Countryside Agency produced in 1999 a design guide to assist those in implementing the trail. The guide sets out detailed specifications for a variety of path types and bridleway furniture and
provides a good reference for the development of the network within West Pennine Moors (Pennine Bridleway National Trail Design Guide, Countryside Agency, 1999). As a multi user route the design will need to take into account wherever possible the needs of mountain bikers. The International Mountain Bike Association has produced a design
guide which provides a variety of techniques and which can be used as a reference (Building Better Trails, IMBA, 2001). The durability of the trail is a key consideration at the outset, longterm maintenance also needs to be taken into account at the design stage.Unfortunately the "Pennine Bridleway National Trail Design Guide, Countryside Agency, 1999" is not available for download anywhere though..
The Institute of Public Rights of Way and Access Management has also produced some best practice:
http://www.iprow.co.uk/gpg/index.php/Surfaces
Has anyone else any examples of good practice?
Posted 3 months ago # -
These are the ones I use: -
http://shop.btcv.org.uk/shop/level2/59/stock/951
No downloadable content yet, but if you're really interested someone local to you should have a hard copy. These have handy downloads: -
http://www.snh.gov.uk/land-and-sea/managing-recreation-and-access/technical-advice/
http://www.pathsforall.org.uk/component/option,com_docman/Itemid,166/gid,57/task,cat_view/
The BHS have preferred standards but I can't find copies of anything, your local BHS rep will be able to help: -
http://www.bhs.org.uk/Riding/Riding_Off_Road/Bridleway_officers/Find_a_Bridleway_Officer.aspx
Shout if you need more info
p.s. I'm back in the office wednesday so I'll have a look on file if you're interested?
Posted 3 months ago # -
Just skim read this but whats happened is a - uni-fix one size fits all apporach. Track which seems to be mostly be a stream be with lots of bedrock or large boulders which dont move too much was re-profiled and filled up with aggregate. This was done sometime last back end. Water has done its thing and moved the new aggregate as the clast size is too small and so very easily eroded by the water flow. Within months there is widespread failure of the path surface. This is now being lifted and repacked - hence the second set of night time picks?
I'd go for two things here - path construction standards and construction design and management regulations. The former is your tool box the later is how you show you have selected the right tools for the job.
In thinking about any job dealing with resurfacing and water from a 'building' point of view you might choose to design out as much on going maint and risk to future users as reasonably possible. Here its a case of balancing water against how accesible it is. You could put several 100tonnes of aggregate as thats what the big book of paths suggest. Very accesible but what about the water? Here your going to build something that is robust and drains well and doesnt eroded at the drop of rain because erosion creates maintenance issue and also user safety issue because you have steep sided narrow ruts. In choosing the desing your going to have to balance out all the issues. This might include pitching, ditching, water bars, leaving things alone. The old path was a naturally selecting is riding group due to the obvious hazards - if it was not eroding too rapidly you might even leave it as is. The new eroded one has hazards requiring an equal skill level but the new users dont have that. Longer term it will find its own level - ideally if you've spent money on it that wont be exactly where it was before.
For path standards I'd suggest - paths for all, SNH guidance, BHS guidance but also remember this is writen by horse riders to a horse riders needs, IMBA guidance, IPROW but it is a little too uni-fix. British upland footpath trust handbook makes good reading as does BTCV. SNH and BUFT are the main two I'd recomend as they are more focused on things other than flat paths in country parks.
The other thing is to always note what are regulations, what is best practice and what is guidance. The regs trump everything else but if applied properly you should be doing the other two. If they dont then something is wrong.
For example - a council decides to make a wheelchair accesible path. It selects its site. In doing so the design highlights the need for several stone pitched steps and drainage chanels. These things would not normally fit with and accesable path in terms of accesablity guidance and design guidance for that user group. At this point you should think - OK right idea wrong location not lets change the design to meet the user as that just creates other issues.
Posted 3 months ago # -
Thanks both, that's useful stuff.
Yes, oldagedpredator your first para is a good recap.
Shout if you need more info
p.s. I'm back in the office wednesday so I'll have a look on file if you're interested?
Thanks for the offer schnor, the local IMBA rep has emailed Colin Palmer to point him to this thread and to ask what he can send us. Will let you know what that includes to see if there is any more you could add.
Posted 3 months ago # -
I've had a reply from the Head of the Rights of Way Team which we'll get our heads together on before replying to (comments welcome here too).
Although I can appreciate that Pipehouse Lane provided a welcome challenge for some mountain bikers, we do need to ensure that all classes of user can pass and repass along its full length. We received a number of complaints that the route had become impassable and the works were carried out following consultation with the parish council. A drainage system was installed prior to the resurfacing; however, as you’ll appreciate from the topography of the lane, there are only a limited number of drainage options available. Unfortunately we experienced exceptionally heavy rainfall before the works were fully completed; however, this damage has since been rectified.
I’m happy to take on board your suggestion for stone pitching and we will consider this for future schemes. The next meeting of the JLAF is scheduled for Friday 2nd March 2012 at the Council Chamber, Keynsham Town Hall, Keynsham BS31 1NL; the JLAF is open to members of the public and you are welcome to attend. Alternatively, there is a PROW Liaison Group which discusses more specific issues on the network and I will let you know when the next meeting is scheduled.
I was planning to ask:
Who were the complaints from and what were their requirements (i.e. did they ask for the trail to be flattened,or the drainage sorted etc)?
Who else was consulted (he mentions the Parish Council) and what were their views? (As we've discussed above, there is a hierarchy of users and they have a legal duty to ensure the path can be used by horse riders but does that mean that they have to flatten the trail?)
What was the ‘drainage system’ that was installed? I may have missed it! I’m guessing it’s a large bore (200mm) plastic land drain / pipe?
What was the cost / what is his budget / what other plans does he have / how are they prioritised etc?
On the positive side at least he promises to “take on board” the suggestion for stone pitching. I was going to press him to promise to consult us next time they’re putting a scheme together.
Finally, we'll see if we can find anyone willing / able to make the JLAF and / or PROW Liaison group..
Posted 3 months ago # -
"we do need to ensure that all classes of user can pass"
Clearly the path was challenging but not "impassable" by foot, bike, horse and motorbike. [I assume we are not including disabled access?]
So they completely changed the character of the trail to satisfy a small number of influential complainants, without wider consultation.
And spent a lot of our money doing it!
They screwed up IMO.
Posted 3 months ago # -
parish council
Will probably be your problem.
Posted 3 months ago # -
parish councilWill probably be your problem.
I used to be the Parish Clerk for the largest Parish north of Bath and was indeed successful in getting quite a few rights of way issues addressed (illegal obstructions etc)
Yes, the PC has a say but I don't think they are the problem here. I'll wait to be proved wrong but I suspect it was probably the local equestrian lobby
I know it differs elsewhere in the country but in this case the PCs are consulted and do have some influence but don't have a budget and don't commission the work themselves..
Posted 3 months ago # -
At what point do we get the shovels out?
Posted 3 months ago # -
We don't need shovels. We need motorbikes and lots of rain
Posted 3 months ago # -
Haven't got motorbike
Posted 3 months ago # -
Is the IMBA our voice on this? If they are in joining tonight.
There must be some sort of disgruntled tax payers alliance that we could contact. Anyone got any ideas? The motorbike and car forums are going to be as upset as us that the countryside gets fixed before the roads.
Can someone set up a Facebook page that we can get everyone we know to sign? It needs to be focussed on wasting money rather than upset mountain bikers.Posted 3 months ago # -
Apologies in advance for the TL;DR brigade
AnalogueAndy
I was planning to ask:
1) Who were the complaints from and what were their requirements (i.e. did they ask for the trail to be flattened,or the drainage sorted etc)?
2) Who else was consulted (he mentions the Parish Council) and what were their views? (As we've discussed above, there is a hierarchy of users and they have a legal duty to ensure the path can be used by horse riders but does that mean that they have to flatten the trail?)
3) What was the ‘drainage system’ that was installed? I may have missed it! I’m guessing it’s a large bore (200mm) plastic land drain / pipe?
4) What was the cost / what is his budget / what other plans does he have / how are they prioritised etc?
5) On the positive side at least he promises to “take on board” the suggestion for stone pitching. I was going to press him to promise to consult us next time they’re putting a scheme together.
Finally, we'll see if we can find anyone willing / able to make the JLAF and / or PROW Liaison groupAlthough this probably won't be relevant or applicable to this particular case, for you to help understand the process a bit more, I can answer these if it were me: -
1) Typically we receive complaints from members of the public stating “had difficulty riding down this bridleway due to several large rocky steps ...”. Complainants rarely suggest a solution when reporting a problem other than finishing with “... please could you do something so I can ride down it”
2) On a project like this I would consult some but not necessarily all of - the Community / Parish Council, landowners, other bodies if applicable (like the Environment Agency, etc), the local BHS / other horse rep and local horse riders / interested people. A general rule of thumb is though the more people involved the more complicated it gets, so its good to reach a balance of views
3) TBH I'm rarely asked the particulars for any project like this, if someone asked for what specification the french drain / whatever else was constructed to, I'd reply with something like “all items were constructed and installed to the particular requirements of the site” as sometimes the contractor typically finds a problem on site which means the spec can't be stuck to 100%.
4) Most council departments flinch (wrongly, its public money after all) when people ask how much things like this cost as they envisage 'Outraged from Bath' letters to the local rag.
Most local authorities have a threshold (£1000 for me, which is a PITA as a job costing a grand doesn't translate to much work on the ground, and a lot of my time is spent asking for quotes, meeting contractors on site knowing someone else will be cheaper, etc, but they're the rules) for which three quotes are needed, 75% of the time the cheapest option will be chosen (the other 15% is if certain contractors are particularly good at certain things, or 10% if the cheaper contractor is tied up elsewhere)
I sometimes get asked and have no problems being totally open about my budget / other plans. No two local authorities maintenance priority system will be the same. I have no idea about your local department, but for me its on a scale of 1-5. 1 is urgent as 'childrens faces at risk' etc, 5 is basically 'it'll never be done'.
How I decide to do one path over another its really tough to answer really. It all depends on what ROWIP targets I have to meet for path type or area, which paths / links have been identified by me / people mentioned in point 2, who complains the loudest, and how different budgets all fall together. I'm naturally inclined to do lots of small jobs (spreading the budget out as far as I can in as large an area) rather than a few big jobs.
Far be it from me to criticise my colleague in Bath, but I wouldn't have done this particular path like this; however I don't know all the facts and there could be a very good reason why its been done like this (which personally I think what has happened), but as people have pointed out, a little openness goes a long way (although I'm now regretting being SO open as members of the public are now micro-consulting me ('why did you put 5 waymark posts on this path instead of 7 like I asked', 'I don't like the colour of the NFU “dog on lead” signs', 'why can't that be a one step stile instead of a two step stile' blah blah blah – there needs to be an arms-length relationship for this very reason).
5) I'd agree with your suggestion that you'd like a bit more than his agreement to “take on board” your opinions. I'm always looking for local people with expertise and who are willing to help (TBH it saves me a bit of time and I don't always know what's best). Normally its a phone call / email but sometimes meet on site with a contractor too. Don't be put off and keep on pestering! Id always recommend having someone on the LAF / RoW groups, or even as an observer.
In terms of literature I've got on file these are pretty comprehensive: -
Path construction and surfacing
http://www.pathsforall.org.uk/component/option,com_docman/Itemid,69/gid,57/task,doc_details/Standards and Dimensions on Bridleways and Byways (British Horse Society)
https://www.bhs.org.uk/~/media/MainSite/About%20the%20BHS/Leaflets/Rights%20of%20Way/standards%20and%20dimensions.ashxThese cover 95% of the most comprehensive guides (which aren't downloadable anyway)
A Guide to the Surfacing of Bridleways and horse tracks. The British Horse Society, 1995
Bridleway Gates: A Guide to Good Practice. The British Horse Society, 1996As usual, shout and I'll try and help
[edit]
p.s.
"we do need to ensure that all classes of user can pass"
Clearly the path was challenging but not "impassable" by foot, bike, horse and motorbike. [I assume we are not including disabled access?]
I'd hate to be pedantic, but he should have said "reasonably convenient to pass and re-pass" not just "can pass and re-pass". This avoids a black and white assessment of whats usable / navigable and what isn't, but instead makes the PRoW officer decide in their professional capacity as to whats 'reasonably convenient', but its a valid point to pick up on though buzz-lightyear
Posted 3 months ago # -
Thanks schnor, that's really helpful. Won't bore you with the details but I have some insight into the budget and how jobs are prioritised and where the money is spent (ex Parish Clerk and active politically).
Probably not come out in the comments above but I've a good working relationship with the ROW Team, they've been really helpful in the past (obstructions, missing signs etc).
Planning to give him a call tomorrow and draft an email after that..
Posted 3 months ago # -
You're not going to believe this but someone's alerted me to this:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=vYMv6w4Yr2EYep. Someone's tried to get a Landy down it. In the dark. On his own. Without ever having driven it before
Posted 3 months ago #
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