Pike 454 to 2011 Revelations - upgrade?

Bike Forum

Pike 454 to 2011 Revelations - upgrade?

61 posts & 20 voices | Started 12 months ago by gravity-slave | Latest reply from offpiste

Tags:

Pages: 12 Next »

gravity-slave - Member

I've got a 2008 Meta 55 which is built with Maxle, Stan's Flows, flat pedals and wide bars as a 2-4 hour ride 'xc' bike for Peak blasts with the emphasis on fun down the hills rather than climbs, but still wants to be light and capable. If anything it's a little heavy and a touch steep.

The Pike is a great fork but has its limits with damping and packs out on the fast stuff. Have been considering getting it PUSHed but wondering if a new Revelation would make more sense?

- 32mm lowers and 20mm bolt through so still stiff(?)
- Improved damping so no need to PUSH(?)
- Axle to crown is +15mm, still within Meta 55 spec but would slacken the bike slightly (good!) and raise the BB a few mm (help with clearance so not bad).
- Considerably lighter!

Is the new Rev as tough as the Pike and a good choice for blasting down rocky descents?

Posted 12 months ago #
retro83 - Member

I've done the same change, albeit on a Trance X rather than a Meta 5. I think you're bang on with your thoughts.

The Rev seems equally stiff to the Pike, but is a lot lighter
I'm a suspension tart, and I haven't felt the need to get the fork Push'd. I think all the 2011 ones come with the new rebound damper but worth confirming this, as it's the bit which makes the difference.

I also think the air spring works just as well as the coil did after the initial faff getting the pressures right.

Posted 12 months ago #
z1ppy - Member

- 32mm lowers and 20mm bolt through so still stiff(?)
Apparently not from some post on here, plenty stiff but not as stiff as the Pikes.

- Improved damping so no need to PUSH(?)
Shirely only if you buy the Team (blackbox) version, otheriwse it'll still be Motion control damped? Though having the RS forks PUSHed is supposed to be as good as BB damping.

- Axle to crown is +15mm, still within Meta 55 spec but would slacken the bike slightly (good!) and raise the BB a few mm (help with clearance so not bad).
...and your question is caller?

- Considerably lighter!
T'is why I bought some, Pikes were overkill for my riding, Rev's were just what I wanted (mine were 1850g or so with 1.5 steerer and 20mm maxle).

Posted 12 months ago #
gravity-slave - Member

Cheers.

Looking at the "Revelation RLT Ti Dual Air 150mm Maxle Lite 20mm" which claims to have motion control, so should be the new damping.

Plus 150 versus 140 so the extra 10mm would be nice...

Posted 12 months ago #
retro83 - Member

z1ppy - Member
- Improved damping so no need to PUSH(?)
Shirely only if you buy the Team (blackbox) version, otheriwse it'll still be Motion control damped? Though having the RS forks PUSHed is supposed to be as good as BB damping.

Non-BB ones are still MoCo but with the DualFlow rebound damper.

gravity-slave - Member

Cheers.

Looking at the "Revelation RLT Ti Dual Air 150mm Maxle Lite 20mm" which claims to have motion control, so should be the new damping.

Actually the RLT Ti appears to have BlackBox, so you get both the rebound and the new compression damper too.

http://www.sram.com/rockshox/products/revelation-rlt-ti

Posted 12 months ago #
gravity-slave - Member

...and your question is caller?

No question, just a statement that they are in spec according to Commencal before the "Only warrantied to 140mm" comments! (fire away....)

That's the job - dual flow rebound sounds like it does what Push does and allow faster return on repeated big hits?

Posted 12 months ago #
z1ppy - Member

ahhhhhh (to both)

Posted 12 months ago #
geetee1972 - Member

I'm a heavy rider, both literally and metaphorically. I can vouch for the 2011 Revs being excellent in fast, rocky big hit territory. I am around 100kg and tend to hit things pretty hard; my Rev RLT Ti with 20mm axle have been excellent in this type of terrain.

Where I do really notice the flex of the chassis is in big landings. Coming in fast to a landing where there isn't the opportunity to perfectly transition the bike, I can really feel the front end splaying fowards. It's really disconcerting when it happens!

The Push tune on the Pike can make it feel really harsh until you get into precisely the kind of fast, big hit, rock terrain you're describing, at which point it does come alive. But it's still a heavy fork for the travel. On the other hand that burly chassis is much more stable on big landings.

Posted 12 months ago #
BadlyWiredDog - Member

That's the job - dual flow rebound sounds like it does what Push does and allow faster return on repeated big hits?

Yes, pretty much. Think Potato Alley flat out. I've got Pushed Pikes on one bike and 2011 Revs on another, and the Pikes are definitely sturdier and less plush on the smaller stuff than the Revs, but mostly the Revs are excellent and significantly lighter.

One thing to consider - if you increase your AC height, not only will you have a slacker head angle, but you'll also correspondingly slacken the seat angle and change the weight distribution on the bike.

That may or may not be an issue - on steep climbs you might find the front lifts more easily and generally the weight distribution on the bike will possibly shift rearwards. I run Pikes on a Pace RC405 - work well though the bike's designed for 130mm forks. When I put a Revelation on the front, it really did screw up the handling to a surprising degree.

It might not do that with a Meta 55 and even if it does, you may be able to compensate by lowering the bars, changing the seat position on the rails etc,or maybe spacing the forks down to 140mm, but if you're happy with the overall handling balance of the bike with Pikes, the Push tune works well on the flat out stuff, though I'd agree with geetee that it's not super plush on the smaller stuff.

Posted 12 months ago #
iang2jones - Member

I've got some pushed Pikes and also the older style Revs. What you can do, is replace the Pike's damper with the newer Blackbox damper. I did that with my Revs and it changed them so much. Its the best upgrade I've done, since converting my TALAS 36s to VANs. The blackbox rebound damper is only £70. Its easy to fit and alot cheaper than getting them Pushed and is just as good.

Posted 12 months ago #
CaptainMainwaring - Member

I've did exactly that change on my SC BLT2 just 2 weeks ago. Haven't noticed any less stiffness but then I don't really do drops and jumps.

I went for the RLT Ti dual position which does have the Blackbox motion control.

They are noticably plusher and lighter and work really well now I've worked out how to set them up. I reckon ignore static sag and just set them up to get about max travel on your biggest hits.

I went for the dual position as even with the Pikes I was struggling to keep the front end down on really steep climbs. Absolutely definitely worth the extra money (and the fact they are black) to make climbing easier, and it's just a 45 deg flick of the lever to change the travel

Posted 12 months ago #
gravity-slave - Member

Potato Alley flat out is a really good example of where my current forks choke up. Death gripping the bottom section gets a bit sketchy as they pack out and go from relatively plush to virtually no control and it's just a case of 'force it'!

Good point about the seat angle. The saddle is currently right back on the rails so scope to move that forwards but I'm stood up/cranking or walking when it gets into steep wandery territory! It looks like the Revs have dual position to drop the front if I am on mega long climbs.

Lowering the bars would be a good tweak too. Regarding handling with Pikes, I'd also like to slacken the head angle a bit (I think the later ones are slacker). Did consider some bushes but the BB is already low and I catch the pedals quite a lot.

Quoted weights (with pinch of salt) are something like 2020g versus 1727g so sounds like 300g-ish saving and improved damping at the slight cost of some stiffness? Selling the Pikes would probably make it a more cost effective change than Pushing them, or at least close.

Posted 12 months ago #
BadlyWiredDog - Member

Lowering the bars would be a good tweak too. Regarding handling with Pikes, I'd also like to slacken the head angle a bit (I think the later ones are slacker). Did consider some bushes but the BB is already low and I catch the pedals quite a lot.

I've just fitted a -2˚ slacker headset to my Pace - hence lots of thinking about the effects on geometry of various fork options etc. Just fitted it along with a shorter stem and really pleased so far, so that might be an option, particularly if you have a zero-stack head tube with a 44mm internal diameter - there are two or three options for those now, but it's not impossible even with a conventional head tube.

I mentioned Potato Alley because I had exactly the same issues as you with standard Pikes, with the Pushed ones, everything's loads more composed, less drama, more control. Ditto with the 2011 Revelations.

Posted 12 months ago #
CaptainMainwaring - Member

IIRC the crown to axle dimension of the Revs is almost 20mm more than the Pikes so will give you about a 1 deg slacker head angle

Posted 12 months ago #
balfa - Member

IIRC the crown to axle dimension of the Revs is almost 20mm more than the Pikes so will give you about a 1 deg slacker head angle

Where did you get those figures from? Sram says they are the same here.

Posted 12 months ago #
CaptainMainwaring - Member

Where did you get those figures from? Sram says they are the same

My mistake. My new Revs are 150mm travel so are 10mm longer axle to crown than the Pikes. For some reason I had in my head that the Pikes were 209mm A to C, which would have been 19mm longer

Posted 12 months ago #
Baldysquirt - Member

Phil, if you do end up selling the pikes, I'd be interested.

Posted 12 months ago #
Northwind - Member

Definately not as stiff and presumably not as strong, but does it matter, is the question. They're still far from flexy, they just don't quite have the same unshakable feel, I was aware of it when I first fitted them but soon stopped noticing. I can feel it when I switch from my Lyriks to the Revs, unsurprisingly, but it never feels like a problem.

Strength... Mine had an internal failure of the air tube but not due to hard use I don't think, just a "one of those things". They've been reasonably hard used and well crashed though and don't seem to have noticed.

Posted 12 months ago #
Vortexracing - Member

I have had nonpushed pikes and pushed pikes, then moved to revelations with BBC damping. Tbh I did not notice any difference in stiffness but the BB damping is better than the push because not only do you get the high speed rebound performance but you don't lose the small bump you do with pushing the pikes. The bb damped revelations are superb and a full pound less than the pikes.

Posted 12 months ago #
CaptainMainwaring - Member

So a couple of people have commented on the Revs being flexier than the Pikes. I'm wondering if it's really flex or whether its just that the Revs are more active, moving a lot more but under control from the better damping, so possibly giving the impression of flex?

Posted 12 months ago #
BadlyWiredDog - Member

So a couple of people have commented on the Revs being flexier than the Pikes. I'm wondering if it's really flex or whether its just that the Revs are more active, moving a lot more but under control from the better damping, so possibly giving the impression of flex?

God only knows, but the extra weight is mostly in the chassis no, so it wouldn't be surprising if Pikes were sturdier and the place I notice it most is over rocky stuff where the Pikes seem to track better laterally, which has nothing to do with fork movement, if anything, a more supple fork would feel better in that situation, I think. In a way it's irrelevant as the Revs, 99.9 per-cent of the time are sturdy enough for me anyway.

Posted 12 months ago #
GW - Member

of course Pikes are stiffer than Revs, just one look at the crowns will tell you that.. whether you'll notice it is another matter entirely.

Posted 12 months ago #
LoCo - Member

RLT Ti Revelations are very good and lighter, Pushed Pikes also good (I've got a set, with a few extra mods

Stiffness wise maybe a little more flex (only really noticable if your really picky or GNAR!) in the revs but they're 150mm and alot lighter.

Posted 12 months ago #
GW - Member

Loco - do you sell either Push or Black box damping parts separately that'd fit a 2010 reba maxle? (forgotten the exact model as I de-stickered it straight out the box)

Posted 12 months ago #
LoCo - Member

Hi no Push stuff is dealt with by tf, yes can supply BB MoCos and dual flow rebound parts, not that cheap though as RS aftermarket stuff is pricey

Posted 12 months ago #
LoCo - Member

Just checked
Moco RRP £ 195.99
Rebound assm. RRP £88.99
However, they'll be a fair bit cheaper

Posted 12 months ago #
GW - Member

Bluddy hell! Could prob buy a new Reba for that.
thanks for the info tho.

<EDIT> hang on, is there anything in particular better about the performance of a Blackbox Moco cart? new rebound assembly is prob all I'd actually want.

Posted 12 months ago #
gravity-slave - Member

Some great input to help the decision, thanks a lot. In fact, reading this is doesn't sound like much of a decision, Revs getting good reviews.

Currently looking at the RLT Ti 150mm with 20mm axle (non travel adjust, have never used the u-turn on my Pikes)

Checking the listed weights, they show about 470g saving. Just saved 650g off wheels, post, pedals and bash and the ride is transformed so currently thinking I can give up a bit of stiffness for the weight - on an average 2-3 hour ride I spend a lot more time climbing or flicking the bike around than battering into stuff! Plus you need a stiff fork when the damping has packed up and you are slamming into rocks!

Final decision - would white work on a black bike with white bars and bits (PHOTO). Pond needs filling, lawn needs feeding to match new turf and bike has grown a log out of the BB. And yes, I know about the front tyre and valves not aligned!

Paul,
I'll let you know about the Pikes for sure.

Posted 12 months ago #
GW - Member

that would look so much better if you fitted a black saddle and bars, got rid of the red componments and most of the stickers

Posted 12 months ago #
iang2jones - Member

GW, There is no real benefit of buying the BB Moco cart. Thats the one with the Ti tube which replaces the red plastic tube in the MoCO unit. What you want is the BB Rebound damper. Its that that makes the differences. I've converted mine for £70. Much better performance, allows so much more oil to flow over fast repeatative hits. Search Mtbr there is loads of info about upgrading to BB rebound. Part No I got was: RockShox Rebound Damper/Seal Head Assembly B (R5397020) Got mine from ebay or try Loco.

Posted 12 months ago #
Shorty121 - Member

Hi, Could anyone show me a picture of the rebound damper?

Posted 12 months ago #
Trailseeker - Member

Anyone used these guys for upgrades?

Posted 12 months ago #
GW - Member

iang2jones - Thanks. That's what I was thinking too.

Posted 12 months ago #
nixie - Member

Be interesting to know if http://www.forksparts.com/achat/produit_details.php?id=194&langue=en would fit into my 09 pikes to convert solo to dual air.

Posted 12 months ago #
iang2jones - Member

Here is the ebay link for the BB damper. Its for a 150mm rev, but does fit older Revs and should fits Pikes.
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/RockShox-Rebound-Damper-Seal-Head-Assembly-B-R5397020-/110645707652?pt=UK_sportsleisure_cycling_bikeparts_SR&hash=item19c2ff8384

There is a shorter 120mm damper available which has a different part number.

The MTBR link shows a picture the BB rebound damper rod vs std damper.
http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=669600

Posted 12 months ago #