@jambalaya – exactly, which is why Cameron can’t be trusted when he hints at more devolution now.

Really, I think the current situation isn’t fair for everyone else in the UK either – the ideal solution is Devo Max for Scotland, for Wales, for NI, for the North, for the South West, etc. A purely federal system with a reformed voting system that actually works.

But there’s no prospect of that happening, and I can completely understand that for people in other parts of the UK Devo Max looks like those annoying Scots getting special treatment again. So the ideal solution is we get out.

oh come on, that’s the revenue part of the equation, how about the spending? You know, the £12,300 per person that Scotland spends.

England spends quite a bit per head too, you know. Scotland just spends more on health and less on policing, stuff like that.

And yes, it depends on how the oil revenues are divided up – with oil in the equation, Scottish tax take is higher, without oil the tax take is a bit lower than in England.

Junkyard – lazarus

You really do hate him dont you> I shall stop mentioning it now FWIW.

Start the clock

Oh just for you I shall mention it just once between now and the vote …will you spot it ?

those annoying Scots getting special treatment again

Well you are certainly annoying 😛

England spends quite a bit per head too, you know. Scotland just spends more on health and less on policing, stuff like that.

And yes, it depends on how the oil revenues are divided up – with oil in the equation, Scottish tax take is higher, without oil the tax take is a bit lower than in England.

No, my claim doesn’t depend on anything. The facts are, Revenue: Scotland 10k (geographical share of oil) Spending: Scotland 12.3K. Whichever way you spin it, Scotland takes out more than it puts into the Union. Which is completely opposite to what you claim.

But for the whole UK, expenditure exceeds revenue – that’s why the UK has a £1.2tn national debt.

So the UK as a whole takes out more than it puts in.

I know that, but the UK as a whole runs less of a deficit than Scotland. And you claimed that “Scotland pays more into the union than we get back” which demonstrably isn’t true, see if you don’t make sure your facts are accurate you can draw the wrong conclusion 😉

I know that, but the UK as a whole runs less of a deficit than Scotland.

Only when you don’t count oil revenues.

But anyhow, all this is academic – no-one seriously argues that Scotland will struggle financially with independence. It’s a side issue – a few percentage points here and there don’t matter compared to the bigger issue of who governs us.

Only when you don’t count oil revenues.

No, my figures included oil.

no-one seriously argues that Scotland will struggle financially with independence

No I think you’re right, I don’t think anyone would argue that it will be a struggle (in the context that pretty much everyone is struggling).

It’s a side issue – a few percentage points here and there don’t matter compared to the bigger issue of who government

If there is a Yes vote, I genuinely hope that is the case.

Hmm. Will go look at figures.

I suppose the way I look at it is that independence isn’t the best solution, it’s the least worst solution. We’re going to have big problems for a while, but at least with independence we have some control over how they’re handled.

Athgray Could you remind me what the UK govt position on prenegotiation is?

I suppose the way I look at it is that independence isn’t the best solution, it’s the least worst solution. We’re going to have big problems for a while, but at least with independence we have some control over how they’re handled.

My own position is that I’m not technically able to vote; we have a croft in the Hebrides but currently my work has brought us to Holland. But I am feet firmly planted in the unionist camp (as if you needed any clarification). My wife is a ‘wee Scottish lassie’, her father is an SNP member who consulted on THMs favourite bedtime reading, the white paper. And although I’m Yorkshire born and bred, and love England dearly, I also love Scotland and would hate to see them separated.

I know a number of MSP’s through my FIL and have spent quite a few days on river banks and in boats with them (they get access to some awesome fishing) and in the most part they appear to be passionate and honest in their support for their country which I can understand and respect, I just hope they can ‘politician’ better than they can fish, but judging by the empty places in my fly boxes this winter they know a thing or two about saving money!

I spent some time in Scotland over Christmas and the referendum was discussed at great length wherever we went out (admittedly it was mainly SNP biased functions, so they were keen to discuss it with the “English Boy”), and some of the tired old arguments were wheeled out time and time again, all I really hope is that people vote with their eyes open with a view to the long game not just as a reaction to the current government.

Absolute worst case scenario, if the Yes vote comes, can the English still have some boats on Watten, I’d personally swap all the oil in the world for that!

That is at least one of the most honest appraisals I’ve seen.

the ideal solution is Devo Max for Scotland, for Wales, for NI, for the North, for the South West, etc.

The English are unenthusiastic about devolution for themselves.

Gordimhor, I suppose the UK governments position on prenegotiating terms of independence would be a categorical no. Off course nobody is stupid enough to think they will or should.

A clear vision should be put forward as an alternative, that I firmly believe is what the majority of people want. Then invite the SNP government to discuss terms knowing they will not.

We all know that if meaningful devo max is on the table it would blow independence out of the water.

Also using a Thatcher broken promise from a different era as an indicator of all future Tory policy does not work. Politician in broken promise shocker. You were promised a currency union by dear leader. Wait until that promise is broken.

Don’t agree with CMD but I would trust him a lot more than AS, who I feel to be one of the most loathsome politicians around.

Nationalists can console themselves in the knowledge that if unionism is not working, they can do this all again.If the majority vote for independence, the rest of us had better keep our feelings hidden and show some faux support for the cause.

I have already mentioned dear leaders clutch on power whilst other parties flounder. Even this will diminsh in 10 to 15 years. For the future after that who knows, however we may wish to take a cursory glance towards the Ukraine.

The English are unenthusiastic about devolution for themselves.

I wonder why? Lack of such distinct regional identities? My father is from Lancashire, his sister moved to Yorkshire, I don’t think that’s true. Mistrust of government, leading to the idea that more government is bad?

Lack of such distinct regional identities?

You don’t get out much do you 😉

That’s what I meant about the Yorkshire vs Lancashire thing 😀

The rest of the UK does not “support” Scotland – Scotland pays more into the union than we get back.

North sea oil drilling only started in the 1960s so the rest of the UK had been subsiding Scotland for about 250 years. Scotland finally gets a chance to pay the rest of the UK back and rather than do that greed sets in and they want to keep all their oil money for themselves. A very strange kind of socialism the SNP preach.

Really? Before oil there was coal, and heavy industry. Oh, and fishing. And soldiers more than happy to fight for the empire.

UK had been subsiding Scotland for about 250 years.

Can you explain that please, and enlighten us with some evidence?.

Gordimhor, I suppose the UK governments position on prenegotiating terms of independence would be a categorical no. Off course nobody is stupid enough to think they will or should.

And yet they slam the Yes campaign for not providing clear facts about what will happen. Cameron was saying it again yesterday, that people should be given all the facts. Well, why doesnt he go and get some more facts, or sit down and negotiate and help provide some clarity?

Because every time people hear the facts (or opinions or balancing arguments or whatever) they move towards Yes. Every time there’s a town hall meeting, there’s a poll taken before and after the meeting, and the shift is always towards Yes. Always.

The No campaign don’t want voters to be informed, or to even hear debate. That’s why the No campaign don’t want to debate anyone from the Yes campaign, it’s why the Better Together meetings are invitation-only.

bencooper – Member
Because every time people hear the facts (or opinions or balancing arguments or whatever) they move towards Yes.

😀 😀

Is that personal experience Ben. Or do you have verifiable evidence to support it?

Or do you have verifiable evidence to support it?

Define “verifiable” – local Yes campaigns are holding regular town hall meetings, and they usually tweet the poll results. Now because it’s a Yes meeting (though open to all), you’d expect the entry poll to be skewed towards Yes. But the exit polls always move further towards Yes.

I’m sure someone somewhere has been documenting all these local polls.

ver·i·fy transitive verb \?ver-?-?f?\
: to prove, show, find out, or state that (something) is true or correct

In this case, more than one fella on the internet saying it’s the case will suffice.

While I’m looking for verification

North sea oil drilling only started in the 1960s so the rest of the UK had been subsiding Scotland for about 250 years

Evidence please?

A lazy wiki suggests

The Industrial Revolution[edit]
During the Industrial Revolution, Scotland became one of the commercial, intellectual and industrial powerhouses of the British Empire.[58] Beginning about 1790 the most important industry in the west of Scotland became textiles, especially the spinning and weaving of cotton, which flourished until the American Civil War in 1861 cut off the supplies of raw cotton; the industry never recovered. However, by that time Scotland had developed heavy industries based on its coal and iron resources. The invention of the hot blast for smelting iron (1828) had revolutionized the Scottish iron industry, and Scotland became a centre for engineering, shipbuilding, and locomotive construction. Toward the end of the 19th century steel production largely replaced iron production.

Fair enough – had a quick look and the Yes campaign don’t seem to be collecting the results. If I get really bored, I’ll tabulate the results. Of course it relies on the people from the local Yes campaigns tweeting the results accurately.

local Yes campaigns are holding regular town hall meetings, and they usually tweet the poll results. Now because it’s a Yes meeting (though open to all), you’d expect the entry poll to be skewed towards Yes. But the exit polls always move further towards Yes

So, you take a load of people, put them in a room and give them an hour of ‘yes’ propaganda*, and surprise surprise, it sways their opinion towards ‘yes’

*’Yes’ propaganda – not my words, the words of those interviewed after one such meeting:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-26558087

“It was good to hear other people’s point of view, but it was basically a propaganda meeting.
“It would be good if the ‘No’ and the ‘Yes’ campaigns could get on the same platform and come to towns.”

“The leaflet dropped through the door and I thought I don’t really know what is going on,” she said.
“I need to go and find out for myself to make a decision. I will go to a ‘No’ meeting to hear what they have to say.”

I agree with you, the actual numbers don’t mean much – but the shift from No to Yes is still important.

And good luck finding a debate with both sides on the same platform – the No campaign just prevaricates and refuses. In Glasgow, Yes Glasgow spent ages asking the No campaign for a debate, with excuse after excuse, they even crowdfunded it to pay for the hall and everything, but No still refused to show up.

And even finding a No-only event will be tricky – they aren’t holding very many public meetings at all.

Billboard adverts starting to appear, by the way – this was brilliant:

That white building on the right? Johann Lamont’s constituency office 😀

Tugs on the heart strings doesn’t it. I await the regular defacing of better together posters.

I think she’s based in ‘The Wedge, Barrhead road’

You were promised a currency union by dear leader. Wait until that promise is broken.

I dont think many think he can deliver on that but he will blame rUK for its failure as they will be the ones refusing [ for very good reasons to be fair]

Don’t agree with CMD but I would trust him a lot more than AS, who I feel to be one of the most loathsome politicians around.

Was it the way CMD delivered on big society that means you trust him more?
I would not trust either of them very much beyond them saying what they think the floating voters want to hear irrespective of whether they think or even intend to deliver on what they say.
Still find it surprising how loathsome so many find Wee eck.

Yes’ propaganda – not my words, the words of those interviewed after one such meeting

That is one person so singular and you may have just cheery picked to prove your point as may the reporter as its the only one that says propaganda.

What do you expect from the Yes campaign – Balance? Neutrality? Its obvious what you are going to get at a Vote yes meeting tbh….Ben and his mates basically 😉
As noted it is the no campaign who wont do joint ventures not the Yes but I think we all agree public debates with all sides makes more sense

Lack of such distinct regional identities? My father is from Lancashire, his sister moved to Yorkshire, I don’t think that’s true. Mistrust of government, leading to the idea that more government is bad?

There is limited interest in it for the same reason the highlands dont want to move away from scotland…they are regions within a country and there is no history of federalism here

What they see is – do you want another level of politicians with next to no powers ?

Surprisingly the answer is no not really.
Were they offered devo max or some such there may be some interest but it would largely be a North south divide IMHO

@athgray

We all know that if meaningful devo max is on the table it would blow independence out of the water.

You have a point polls did show that some form of devolved assembly with greater powers was the most popular option. However there is no clear definition of what could be offered. Devo max for example appears to be ruled out
theherald
My view is that whatever version of “enhanced devolution” may be offered if it was on the table would mean Westminster and the narrow economic elite would retain sovereignty and control of the purse strings. So I would still vote for independence

I have already mentioned dear leaders clutch on power whilst other parties flounder. Even this will diminsh in 10 to 15 years. For the future after that who knows, however we may wish to take a cursory glance towards the Ukraine.

Notably it was the UK government who approached Russia
theheraldagain
Seriously it is odious to compare either Salmond or Cameron to Putin. Have a look at Amnesty Internationals site.

Indeed they are both tosspots not despots 😉

Post of the day!

🙄